As such as fear was that even though the charges were false, it could be arrested and extradited to the United States. He sought refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy in london, where he was granted asylum, at least for a period that the c, i a worked with the ecuadorian government to bug the embassy for audio and video. And they spied on assange and every visitor he ever had. The pace picked up in 2017, when we can weeks publish the volt 7 documents. These were some of the most sensitive spying methods that the c i a had ever developed. Almost immediately, the Trump Administration and the department of justice filed espionage charges against assange and then c, i a director, mike pompei o told the media that week. A weeks was a hospital non state intelligent service. Soon after that word leaked out from the c, i that he that discussed plans to assassinate assange in london. And the Justice Department asked the British Government to extradite him to the United States to stand trial. He faced is well over 100 years in prison. Donald trump was only president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. Many observers believe the deal could be negotiated, that would see signs go free. After all, the Obama Administration had elected to not charge him with the crime. It would be reasonable to think that obamas concerns about prosecuting assigns while protecting the 1st amendment to the constitution would be bidens concerns. But that hasnt been the case. And Julian Assange has very few options left in his Legal Defense were joined by joe loria. Joe is the editor in chief of Consortium News founded by the late robert perry. And hes a former journalist for the boston globe, the wall street journal. And the times of london. Joe, thanks so much for being with us. That pleasure. Be with you, john. Always. We all know julian assigns from news reports we know about his technical background. But tell us about the kind of person that is. Why has he always been so concerned with transparency . Well, hes from my early age, he was, his mother was a, as an activist. I think that influenced him strongly. And as a teenager, he did engage in hacking, which is what the Us Government like people think he still does. And one of the earliest things he did was to have some us defense information during the iraq war. 1991, the us war on iraq. And julian is an unusual person and he has put his own safety, his own futures on life now on the line in the pursuit of what he considers to be justice and transparency. Any combined that very strong sense of justice and his abilities. As a journalist, speaking and writing with incredible Technical Skills that most journalists like myself, have very little of so that combination allowed him to create to what, what with help wiki likes in 2006, which was all like took, i think the us British State and other governments by surprise, so new form of journalism, you know, newspapers that always published. Sometimes 3 or 4 pages of documents that you could read on a paper like parts of the pen on paper were published pending on papers. And i just 71 by the New York Times the idea of publishing thousands, if not hundreds, of thousands of government documents online that searchable. But any citizen could look up and find a diplomatic cable or a military, a, a note about something that happened in iraq or afghanistan or what was going on. And on top of all, this was something extraordinarily new and it took, i think, the governments by surprise, but the New York Times and the by asian spiegel and them, and they moaned, they just, they all published the guardian. Thats the one i forgot published the same stuff he did in 2010. So there was a sense then that this had to be published because they sat on this and would look worse than actually publishing. And of course, as we know, everything turned around on drawing after we can get into this, the dnc leaked just before that when he revealed george bushs grimes, republican crimes, of obviously democratic media. Were happy with that, but that changed. So this is at heart a political issue, but julie sanders, an unusual man. Um and i think i could say that for sure. Tell us about Chelsea Mannings decision to reach out to wiki leeks, way back in 2009. Were getting published. A lot of things in that trunk of information that embarrassed the government, but none of it was particularly damaging and the collateral murder video was evidence of a war crime. For many of us assign should have been celebrated rather than targeted. But that wasnt the response. Why was the Us Governments response to assign, so heavy handed and do you believe that washington was trying to set him up on a 6 charge back then . Thats why i dont know the exact answer to that. It does this look black looked like that to some extent, there was certainly a lot of communication between the british, the crown prosecution service, and the swedish government about how to handle this case. And they tried to stop the prosecutor from coming to london to interview them in the embassy. This is over the allegations of Sexual Misconduct that the 1st prosecutor in this case, after the 2nd day of these allegation, lemay dropped, dropped the whole, but it was taken up later. So what exactly happened there is not clear, may never become exactly clear what pressure was exerted on sweden and then on the police and the Prosecutors Office to pick up a case that had been dropped. They also let him leave the hidden permission to leave sweden after he went to the police and spoke to them and then the case was dropped, flew to london, and then not long after he got here. And this is the time when he published it half done. Well, doris, this is in 2010. I think october that they suddenly issued this arrest warrant this red alert from the into paul and it turned. 7 out that there wasnt even the court that issued that warrant from sweden. It was to prosecute a different process because and then the one who initially dropped the case who uh, who issue this and apparently the laws been changed because of that. In sweden, you have to have a court issue that you can have just to prosecute issue in a restaurant. So she and he was again, i cant say for sure what exactly precious report on this we just government, but it looks like something happened there that changed this whole thing around. And i have to say julian and his lawyers thought that at the time, and they said that this is not about being expedited sweden, but its going to be theres going to be onward extradition to the United States. Then charge the trial on these charges that he now faces. Right now, espionage charges and a computer intrusion conspiracy to commit computer intrusion charge, which is not a hacking, by the way, the dot indictments do not accuse much dealing the documents. So theres something fishy going on once we know which i can give you a better answer. John brock obama famously said that he did not charge assigned with the crime because the Us Government had what he called a New York Times problem. Can you tell us what that meant . If there had been a decision to not charge assigned with the crime, why was he forced to take refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy . Well, i could, after that, he went to the embassy because of the swedish tears. Because i said that went forward and the extradition requests from sweden to britain to send them to sweden, to face questioning. Basically, there were no formal charges. Everybody makes that mistake all the time you read about rate charges and this, there was no charges at all. They want it in for questioning back in sweden, and he went all the way to the u. K. Supreme court to stop the extradition and he lost. And before they could send them to sweden, he went to the echo, during embassy and eventually got asylum and stayed there all those years until he was dragged out by the British Police with the connivance of the new echo during government. So julian, as fond i was afraid of that i would extradition and they were very well aware of that. But thats what was that the heart of this case and wasnt about the swedish charges which kind of relates to the last question. You asked me that this looks like a set up that was all about getting him on anything that can get them on tax evasion. Or this, this case where the women basically wanted him to get an a, an s t d test. And one of the woman said the condiment broken, and thats why they wanted this. They never alleged rate. So this was, but apparently, you know, and swedish has very little laws about that. So that was considered a Sexual Assault, possibly, although again, the charges were never made. So this was a kind of a looks like a set up to get him to go to the United States. And thats why they, he went into the embassy. They did not want to go to sweden, not to be questioned about this, the sexual issues, but then we set onto the United States. Thats why they went into the embassy. The British Government has been especially harsh and its treatment of Julian Assange. He was arrested technically on a bail jumping charge, but hes been held for years now in a maximum security penitentiary in london while he goes through the extradition process. Why has he gotten such harsh treatment from the british . Well, i like many people, the most people talk about this subject. I do not believe britain is a portable of the United States. I dont believe that they are just the vessel of the United States that might fit germany more, but not britain. Britney. Is it called participant and us adventures abroad . This looked at the rock for think of margaret thatcher, telling george w bush. Dont get wobbly about attacking iraq. Its where there are so many examples where the British Government is very much in lock step with the United States and maybe even influencing their policy to stick out. And were talking about Foreign Policy of United States. And julie massage is a threat to any state that is committing crimes essentially or corruption. And they have the power that were seeing through the british courts to crush this man. Like any tin pot dictated, well do just one a reporter, right. Something they dont like to from in the dungeon. And of course the, we hear this sent ammonia stuff coming out of washington. Much more than our london about how these are Human Rights Violations and us as intervene. This is all garbage because they, they intervene for their own strategic and political reasons and economic reasons, not because somebodys torturing someone because the america, so many allies to rod says, 2nd world war all those dictatorships and latin american saudi arabia, israel, they all are committing great Human Rights Violations, im not saying china or isnt, or there arent interrupt, almost every country has them, but they just pick and choose. So they use it in a phony way to go after countries saying that they are violating human rights. Joe loria. Thank you so much for your insight. We have can take a short break. Stay with us for more of our conversation. About wiki leaks, co founder julian hassan. Were going to find out the status of julians case in just a minute. The take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isnt just a shepherd, reality distorted by how of tired vision with no real opinions. Fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills. And is it just as a chosen few. Fractured images, presented as 5 can you see through their illusion going underground can arguably the most famous wisdom lower in the world. Is julian massage, the co founder of which he lives. He made a name for himself and for his organization in 2009 with the release of documents sent by chelsea manning. Then bradley, many, many of those documents to embarrass the American Government and a video that many included now known as the collateral murder video, showed clear evidence of a war cry. Im john kerry onto your watching him to whistle blowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 julia sondra is a hero to many around the world who value transparency and human rights. The free speech absolutist has exposed countless governmental crimes, especially those committed by the United States, and has been a thorn in the side of washington policy makers for years. 3 successive american president s had to deal with assange with wiki weeks and with a fall out from would give weeks disclosures. There were different strategies. First, it was clear that the United States wanted to stop us on sooner rather than later. There was an attempt to have him arrested on Sexual Assault charges in sweden. And as such as fear was that even though the charges were false, it could be arrested and extradited to the United States. He sought refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy in london, where he was granted asylum, at least for a period. But the c, i a worked with the ecuadorian government to bug the embassy for audio and video. And they spied on assigned and every visitor he ever had. The pace picked up in 2017, when we can weeks published the volt 7 documents. These were some of the most sensitive spying methods that the c i a had ever developed. Almost immediately, the Trump Administration and the department of justice filed espionage charges against assange and then c, i a director, mike pompei o told media that week a weeks was a hospital non state intelligent service. Soon after that word leaked out from the c, i that it had discussed plans to assassinate assange in london. And the Justice Department asked the British Government to extradite him to the United States to stand trial. He faces well over 100 years in prison. Donald trump was only president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. Many observers believe the deal could be negotiated, that would see a science go free after all, the obama will send back to the suppliers and john travolta, were speaking with joe loria, hes the editor in chief of Consortium News founded by the late robert perry. And hes a former journalist for the boston globe, the wall street journal, and the times of london. Good to have you with us, joe. Tell us about the status of julians case right now. We know that the British High Court recently ruled against him, but he has something of a 2nd shot before that court. Does he not . What he does, there is going to be a hearing before. 2 judges that will last 30 minutes. So a sondors lawyers have 15 minutes to try to save this mans life before these 2 judges. The they are initially submitted 11910 months ago, a 150 page document asking for the high court to appeal the decision of the lower court judge who did rule did release him, quote unquote release, and then put them back in jail. And by denying a bell, released him on the ground that he would probably commit suicide if he went to a us prison. And that on the basis san juan, when he was thrown back in jail. The us then appeal that they went to the high court and they issued after that decision they actually what was really new evidence that the high court accepted that of these assurances these diplomatic assurances that they would not mystery drilling or such as the cry court accepted the lower courts decision that if we went to the us, he had suicidal tendencies and they, what they did was replace that or should see that with these assurances, they actually believe that the us would treat julian well and not mistreat him. And he has no dangers in the us a penal system. And of course theres also because the option that assurance is that if he does something, they judge to be wrong, whatever. And its not specify what that is. And you told me, john, on occasions that you know that if you look at a guard the wrong way, that could be a reason to throw somebody back in solitary. So he would be in solitary confinement, despite the assurance is that as plain as day. But the high court, as i said before, britain is as intent on getting him for reviewing these state secrets as United States as so they, this high court did accepted those assurances and u. S. One. And then a saw and wanted to go to you what you cation clean court, the challenge that decision and the u. K. Supreme court said no, were not going to hear the case. So went back down to the last effort he had, which was to what, by so called cross appeal, which was to appeal that section of the lower court judge vanessa bernard, who agreed everything on points of politics in that document. Her decision all agreed or with us on everything except that he was on the is help waiting, permit her to send him to the us. When that was overturn. Assigned as low as filed this cross appeal wherever they would look at his do his rights to free speech. Uh the, the abuses of due process. It was about 8. 00 to 12. 00 points that they argued of loss and the high court. After 9 months, one judge said Jonathan Swift with his little a portion reasoning just rejected and 3 pages is 150. 00 page a submission and said no, denied, denied, denied. And that would mean they has one last chance what you asked me about, and that is this last ditch effort to go before 2 judges in a public hearing for 30 minutes. And were waiting here in london for that to happen. It could be any day. Nobodys ever informed me that even a saw just people dont know. We were at 2 events in, in the problem and square on saturday. And then julian, sancha had a Birthday Party which of course he was conspicuously absent. But we heard a lot and we kept a lot to stella and kristen preference in about whats going on and the it could come at any time this hearing. And if they reject is here whenever they make that decision. And it could be put on a plan that night to the United States. There is one last chance, and that is your opinion. Court of human rights, which his lawyer is. Hassan just submitted a filing in december, asking them to intervene. There are cases where the court has intervened and when there was one here, a year or so ago, with some rewinding, refugees were being sent back by the home secretary to randa, where they clearly were in danger. And the claim was on the tarmac at a london airport, ready to take off in the European Court of human rights, ordered it to stop. And it did however, so thats what theyre hoping could happen. However, its so complicated and im been researching this for a piece i want to do on the European Court of human rights and then where they, britain is actually obligated to the treaty in 1953 to that set. This court up says that several states are obligated to follow the rules of the court, the decisions of the court, which would mean they, they have jurisdiction over all the members of the council of europe. Some britain. This will part of this course not a limited with the this is the council of europe, of which britain is a member, so they are obligated according to the treat. However, in 1998, the british human rights act, the language was different. Its, were just quotes, all i need to take consideration of the decisions of each so which one of them, oh, this is very much like the base between the u. K. Us like traditional trading, which was extra additions for political offences. And the enabling up empowerment for that treaty which left that out. So weve got these 2 contradictions here, between in both cases the treaty distribution, trudy and the act. Extradition ok, and the human rights act of 1998, which seems to Say Something different than the treaty. So theres not a lot of optimism months this, all just people that ive talked to here in london that the, you the drive you appear in court of human rights will be able to save drawing. Jo, give us your assessment of the governments case. The Justice Department, star witness is a convicted liar and a pedophile. Certainly the prosecutors wouldnt want to go into court with that. It seems to me that it would be better for everybody if the prosecutors offered julian to deal with time served and then allow him to go home to australia that way. Washington save space and julian would be free. Is that even under discussion to the best of your knowledge . Jennifer robinson, one of the joins lawyers in australia, but whose works here in london. Actually set for the 1st time of the National Press club, and camber on may 22nd. That they would consider a plea, but what is it going to play to that was never said before. There was talk of a so called out forward plea, which is a bizarre, a thing in the us. Thats where a defendant can say, im not guilty. I didnt do this, but im not going to get a fair trial. I know this is helpless. I just want to get out. So ill plead guilty technically, but i didnt do it. And this is what david hicks in australia was thrown into one tournament, actually used to, to get to play deal in which they sent him back to australia serv, 7 months. So when this became a, theres a lot of exciting when biden was going to go to sydney to meet with albany to the Prime Minister anthony alban, ancient australia many canceled the last minute his trip. But just before that, caroline kennedy, the american, and that, yes, the daughter of slain j. F k. The door to the now us and baskets are still invited. 6 problem and 2 items from 3. 00 to 2. 00 parties, one independent to come for lunch, and camber, at the American Embassy to discuss join us obviously, that couldnt have happened without the state department. Its not the white house approving that. So there was all this excitement, then albanese went on tv shortly 5 days before that he had said on a b, c, television. Its john broadcasting professional. And he was here in london for the current nation that he, what he has talked to american officials, they can watch the caste and hes worried about his health. So there was, this came up and then we found out the f. B. I still investigating the case and then the. 2 decided to just the hearing, so if theres going to be a plea, its got to come with the last minute. And then joe biden remembers what he said in 2010. Who knows . He would follow the principal then because nothing has changed. His case should be dropped, he knows that he knew there was no basis for it back then. And he knows now what the Trump Administration did was add some thought to the computer intrusion conspiracy chart, which they got this guy in iceland. Did you say a convicted of thoughts there to say to the f b i as an informant . That that julian was going around telling people to hack and what was happening. And then the guy came forward to a nice trip to iceland, a newspaper. Instead i lied it, elijah, that thing collapses. Thats part of the case would collapse if the court steps that this guy stays now, then he lives. So nothing has changed from 2010, and biden should do something to the right thing with the julian supporters plan in the event that hes extradited to the us. If that happens, julian would be tried in the notorious District Court for the Eastern District of virginia. Thats the home district of the c i a and the defense department. So whats the strategy on this . Got . Theres a big closet in front of the Federal Court House in alexandria, which i have an apartment just a minute drive from there. By coincidence, i hope i will have to make that drive to cover this trial. But if hes there, i think that plaza would have to be filled with supporters and protests from around the country. If not the world. Thats number one. Number 2, there has to be heavy pressure. Um, uh well this has to happen now and then hasnt happened. Pressure on the politicians, members of congress. No, julian has gotten support from president s in latin america from now the Prime Minister of his own country. All human rights. What major human rights watch. Sorry, human Rights Groups and pressed reading, groups of all come out behind even the New York Times and those other papers i mention wrote a joint letter to america, garland, the american attorney general saying dropped the charges. This is a threat to free press to its not just about drilling sondra, and nothing has happened yet. So what the strategy be other than to make a rock us and to try to make it a difficult political issue for about for dropbox. Because it is going to be an election coming up next year. And just by me, want a media circus there. And where it becomes clear that hes prosecuting a reporter for reporting wrongdoing by the United States, which is withdrawal supposed to do it. So clearly that becomes clear and clear to the public, and most importantly, if m s n b c, which on the 90 was arrested, said it was wrong because all drugs are tracked here the New York Times. Editorial back then said that let alone this letter. So they know the mainstream and the most powerful, like m assembly. She liked the New York Times in the United States. They know what this means to journalism to their own jobs. I remember rachel motto that night saying i dont like them, you know, push them lagging because of the dnc, which, which is by the way, right button is not moving because its not in the environment the dnc leaks at which. So the democrats still say help to hillary blues spiked the tub of campaign she she ran and he was just published for information. Nobodys denied that members of the and see how to resign because it was true. And the c i a bought 7 leaks which infuriated the c i a and pump pay off to do, which is when he went after, during that and even as we know from a court case in spain. And then by yahoo is reporting that there was a plans disgusted for his in or kidnapped julia, aside from the embassy. This is the cause of the c i a leak and the dns. So, so i think barton is going to be, is being pressure to, would be by the dnc is on party with. Hes supposed be the head of m a c. I a not to let the guy go, which has nothing to do with the environment at that. So buying us go back to square one back to meet the present 2010. When he said, we didnt prove that he started the documents and we cant and died of uh, nothing is in the indictment about the bmc leaks or the c audit. Its a purely political issue that changed the face of this case for the brett by an administrative trumped invited trump indicted him. Trump took advantage of his arrest by this new government in ecuador is the trouble ministration. That why would the, by the restriction follow the heated Donald Trumps administrative the right because it serves the c, r a and the dnc. Now, jo, laurie a thank you for your insights and thanks to our viewers for tuning in being a profit in the wilderness, speaking truth to power often leads to poverty and punishment. Its far easier to follow the wins of public opinion, but some things are black and white right or wrong, and its always better to speak truth to power. Thats what Julian Assange has done. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers im john curiosity. Well see you next time. 2 2 the so what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on all sides. Very dramatic. Only personally, im going to resist. I dont see how that strategy will be successful, very critical of time. Time to sit down and talk to the the primary, sanchez. Im gonna do a news now for 30 years to languages all over the world. Here in the United States interviewed for president s work that the 4 major Us Television networks, i believe the news should be honest, direct, and impactful. And this is direct impact. The i want to start with this studies of indicated as by the way weve mentioned on this show in the past that most of us here in america in the United States have given a map of the world could not find most country