The Trump Administration and the department of justice filed espionage charges against assange. And then c, i a director, mike pompei o told the media that we gave weeks was a hospital non state intelligent service. Soon after that were leaked out from the c, i that it had discussed plans to assassinate assange in london. And the Justice Department asked the British Government to extradite him to the United States to stand trial. He faces well over 100 years in prison. Donald trump was only president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. Many observers believe the deal could be negotiated that would see a science go free. After all, the Obama Administration had elected to not charge him with the crime. It would be reasonable to think that obamas concerns about prosecuting assigns while protecting the 1st amendment to the constitution would be bidens concerns. But that hasnt been the case. And julian assigns has very few options left in his legal defense. So were joined by jo loria. Jo is the editor in chief of Consortium News founded by the late robert perry. And hes a former journalist for the boston globe, the wall street journal. And the times of london. Joe, thanks so much for being with us. The pleasure to be with you, john. Always. We all know julian, aside from news reports we know about his technical background, but tell us about the kind of person that is. Why has he always been so concerned with transparency . Well, hes from the early age, he was, his mother was a, as an activist. I think that influenced him strongly. And as a teenager, he didnt gauge and hacking, which is what the Us Government like people think he still does. And one of the earliest things he did was to have some us defense information during the iraq war. 1991, the us war on iraq. Julia is an unusual person in the he has put his own safety is on futures on life now on the line in the pursuit of what he considers to be justice and transparency any combined. That very strong sense of justice and his abilities as a journalist, speaking and writing with incredible Technical Skills that most journalists like myself with this type of have very little of so that combination allowed him to create to what, what with help with the leaks in 2006, which was all the took, i think the us, British State and other governments by surprise. Its a new form of journalism. You know, newspapers that always published. Sometimes 3 or 4 pages of documents that you could read on a paper like parts of the pen on paper were published pending on papers, and i do 71 by the New York Times. The idea of publishing 1000, just on hundreds of thousands of government documents online that searchable. But any citizen could look up and find a diplomatic cable or a military, a, a note about something that happened in iraq or afghanistan or what was going on. And on tournament, this was something extraordinarily new and it took, i think, the governments by surprise, but the New York Times and the by asian spiegel and them, and they found, they just, they all published the guardian. Thats the one i forgot published the same stuff he did in 2010. So there was a sense then that this had to be published because they sat on this and would look worse than actually publishing. And of course, as we know, everything turned around on drawing after we can get into this, the dnc leak, the guess before that when he revealed george bush as crimes, republican crimes, of obviously democratic media. Were happy with that, but that changed. So this is at heart a political issue, but julie sanders, an unusual man. Um and i think i could say that for sure. Tell us about Chelsea Mannings decision to reach out to wiki leaks way back in 2009 were giving is published a lot of things in that trunk of information that embarrassed the government, but none of it was particularly damaging and the collateral murder video was evidence of a war crime for many of us assign should have been celebrated rather than targeted, but that wasnt the response. Why was the Us Governments response to assigns . So heavy handed and do you believe that washington was trying to set him up on a 6 charge back then . Thats why i dont know exact the answer to that. It does look like look like that. To some extent, there was certainly a lot of communication between the british, the crown prosecution service, and the swedish government about how to handle this case. And they tried to stop the prosecutor from coming to london to interview them in the embassy. This is over the allegations of Sexual Misconduct that the 1st prosecutor in this case, after the 2nd day of these allegation, lemay dropped, dropped the when it was taken up later. So what exactly happened . There is not clear, may never become exactly clear what pressure was exerted on sweden and then on the police and the Prosecutors Office to pick up a case that had been dropped. They also let him leave the hidden permission to leave sweden after he went to the police and spoke to them and then the case was dropped, flew to london, and then not long after he got here. And this is the time when he published it half done. What diaries, this is in 2010. I think october that they suddenly issued this arrest warrant this red alert from the into paul. And it turned out that there wasnt even the court that issued that warrant from sweden. It was to prosecute a different process because and then the one who initially dropped the case who uh, who issue this and apparently the laws been changed because of that in sweden. You have to have a court issue that you can have just to prosecute issue in a restaurant. So he, um, he was again, i cant say for sure what exactly precious will put on this. We just government, but it looks like something happened there that changed this whole thing around. And i have to say julian and his lawyers thought that at the time, and they said that this is not about being expedited sweden, but is going to be theres going to be on what extradition to the United States as then charge the trial on these charges that he now faces right now, espionage charges and a computer intrusion conspiracy to commit computer intrusion charge, which is not a hacking, by the way, the dot indictments do not accuse of much dealing the documents. So theres something fishy going on once we know which i can give you a better answer. John brock obama famously said that he did not charge assigned with the crime because the Us Government had what he called a New York Times problem. Can you tell us what that meant . If there had been a decision to not charge assigned with the crime, why was he forced to take refuge in the door in embassy . Well, i could, after that, he went to the embassy because of the swedish tears. Because i said that went forward and the extradition request from sweden to britain to send him to sweden, to face questionnaire. Basically, there are no formal charges. Everybody makes that mistake all the time you read about rate charges and this, there was no charges at all. They want it in for questioning back in sweden, and he went all the way to the u. K. Supreme court to stop the extradition and he lost. And before they could send them to sweden, he went to the equity or an embassy, and eventually got asylum. And stayed there all those years until he was dragged out by the British Police with a connivance of the new echo during government. So julian, as fond i was afraid of that i would extradition and they were very well aware of that. But thats what was that the heart of this case, it wasnt about the swedish charges which kind of relates to the last question. You asked me that this looks like a set up that was all about getting him on anything that can get them on tax evasion. Or this, this case where the women basically wanted him to get an a, an s t d test. And one of the woman said the condiment broken, and thats why they wanted this. They never alleged rate. So this was, but apparently, you know, swedish has very little laws about that. So that was considered a Sexual Assault, possibly, although again, the charges were never made. So this was a kind of a looks like a set up to get him to go to the United States. And thats why they, he went into the embassy that he did not want to go to sweden, not to be questioned about this, the sexual issues, but then we set onto the United States. Thats why i went into the embassy. The British Government has been especially harsh, and its treatment of Julian Assange. He was arrested technically on a bail jumping charge, but hes been held for years now in a maximum security penitentiary in london while he goes through the extradition process. Why has he gotten such harsh treatment from the british . Well, i like many people here, most people talk about this subject. I do not believe britain is a portal of the United States. I dont believe that they are just the vessel of United States that might fit germany more, but not britain. Britney. Is it called participant and us adventures abroad . This look at the rock for think of margaret that youre telling george w bush. Dont get wobbly. About attacking iraq, its where there are so many examples where the British Government is very much in lock step with the United States, and maybe even influencing their policy a stick out. And were talking about Foreign Policy of the United States. And julie massage is a threat to any state that is committing crimes essentially or corruption. And they have the power that were seeing through the british courts to crush this man. Like any tin pot dictated, would do. Just want to report or write something they dont like, theyll throw me in the dungeon. And of course the we hear this sentiment is stuff coming out of washington. Much more than our london about how these are Human Rights Violations and us as intervene. This is all garbage because they, they intervene for their own strategic and political reasons and economic reasons, not because somebodys torture and someone because the america, so many allies drawn to the 2nd world war, all those dictatorships and latin american saudi arabia, israel, they all are committing great Human Rights Violations. Im not saying china or isnt, or there are an interruption, almost every country has them, but they just pick and choose. So they use it in a phony way to go after countries saying that they are violating human rights. Joe loria. Thank you. So much for your insight, we have to take a short break. Stay with us for more of our conversation about wiki weeks, co funder, julie and assigns. Were going to find out the status of julians case in just the news. 2 the the, the, [000 00 00;00] the the arguably the most famous wisdom lower in the world is julian massage, the co founder of which he lives. He made a name for himself and for his organization in 2009 with the release of documents sent by chelsea manning. Then bradley, many, many of those documents embarrassed the American Government and a video that many included now known as the collateral murder video, showed clear evidence of a war crime. Im john, carry onto your watching the whistle blowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 julia sondra is a hero to many around the world who value transparency and human rights. The free speech absolutist has exposed countless governmental crimes, especially those committed by the United States, and has been a thorn in the side of washington policy makers for years. 3 successive american president s had to deal with assigned with wiki weeks and with a fall out from would give weeks disclosures. There were different strategies. First, it was clear that the United States wanted to stop us on sooner rather than later. There was an attempt to have him arrested on Sexual Assault charges in sweden. And as such as fear was that even though the charges were false, it could be arrested and extradited to the United States. He sought refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy in london, where he was granted asylum, at least for a period. But the c, i a worked with the ecuadorian government to bug the embassy for audio and video. And they spied on assigned and every visitor he ever had. The pace picked up in 2017, when we can weeks published the volt 7 documents. These were some of the most sensitive spying methods that the c i a had ever developed. Almost immediately, the Trump Administration and the department of justice filed espionage charges against the assange and then c, i a director, mike pompei, o told media that week a weeks was a hostile, non state intelligent service. Soon after that word leaked out from the c, i that it had discussed plans to assassinate assange in london. And the Justice Department asked the British Government to extradite him to the United States to stand trial. He faces well over 100 years in prison. Donald trump was only president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. Many observers believe the deal could be negotiated, that would see assigns, go free after all, by the 4th and back to the suppliers. Im john to reaku. Were speaking with joe loria, hes the editor in chief of Consortium News founded by the late robert perry. And hes a former journalist for the boston globe, the wall street journal, and the times of london. Good to have you with us, joe. Tell us about the status of julians case right now. We know that the British High Court recently ruled against him, but he has something of a 2nd shot before that court. Does he not . And he does. There is going to be a hearing before 2 judges that will last 30 minutes. So a sondors lawyers have 15 minutes to try to save this mans life before these 2 judges. The they are initially submitted 11910 months ago, a 150 page document asking for the high court to appeal the decision of the lower court judge who did rule did release him, quote unquote release, and then put them back in jail. And by denying a bell released him on the grounds that he would probably commit suicide if you went to a us prison and that on those basis san juan. But he was thrown back in jail. The us then appeal that they went to the high court and they issued after that decision, they ask you what was really new evidence that the high court accepted that of these assurances these diplomatic assurances that they would not mystery joanna, such as the court accepted the lower courts decision that he went to the us. Uh he had suicidal tendencies and they, what they did was replace that or should see that with these assurances, they actually believe that the us will treat julian well and not much treat him. And he has no dangers in the us a penal system. And of course theres also because the option that assurance is that if he does something, they judge to be wrong, whatever. And its not specified, but that is a and you told me john, on occasions that you know that if you look at a god the wrong way, that could be a reason to throw somebody back in solitary. So he would be in solitary to find that despite the assurances that was plain as day, but the high court, as i said before, britain is as intent on getting him for reviewing these state secrets as United States as so they, um, this high court accepted those assurances and u. S. One. And then assad wanted to go to view what you cation clean court, the challenge that decision, in the case of green cards. No, were not going to hear the case. So went back down to the last effort he had, which was to what for so called cross appeal, which was to appeal that section of the lower court judge vanessa birds who agreed everything on points of politics in that document a, her decision all agreed or with us on everything except that he was on the is help, wouldnt permit her to send him to the us when that was over. Turn aside as large files as cross appeal wherever they would look at his do his rights to free speech. Uh, the uh, the abuses of due process there was about 8. 00 to 12. 00 points that they argued of law and the high court after 9 months. One judge said Jonathan Swift with his little appearing reasoning, just rejected in 3 pages, is 150 page a submission and said no denied, denied, denied. And that would mean they have one last chance which you asked me about, and that is this last ditch effort to go before 2 judges in a public hearing for 30 minutes. And were waiting here in london for that to happen. It could be any day. Nobodys ever informed of that. Even a saw just people dont know. We were at 2 events in, in the problem and square on saturday. And then julian, sancha had a Birthday Party which of course he was conspicuously absent. But we heard a lot, and we talked a lot to stella and Kristen Kraft and send about whats going on and the it could come at any time this hearing. And if they reject is here whenever they make that decision, it could be put on a plan that night to the United States. There is one last chance, and that is your opinion. Court of human rights, which his lawyers, hassan just submitted a filing in december, asking them to intervene. There are cases where the court has intervened. And when there was one here a year or so ago with some rewinding, refugees were being sent back by the home secretary to rhonda where they clearly were in danger. And the claim was on the tarmac at a london airport, ready to take off in the European Court of human rights, ordered it to stop, and it did happen. So thats what theyre hoping could happen. However, its so complicated, and ive been researching this for a piece i want to do on your a quarter of human rights and then whether britain is actually obligated to the treaty in 1953 that set this court up says that several states are obligated to follow the rules of the court, the decisions of the court, which would mean that they have jurisdiction over all the members of the council of europe. So britain, as will part of this course, not a limited with the, this is the council of europe, which britain is a member, so they are obligated according to the treat. However, in 1998, the british human rights act, the language was different. Its. Were just codes all i need to take consideration of the decisions of these so which one will this is very much like the bait between the u. K. Us extradition treaty, which bars expeditions for political offences and the enabling up empowerment for that 3 d, which less that out. So weve got these 2 contradictions here, between in both cases, the treaty, the tradition, trudy and the act, extradition act, and the human rights act of 1998, which seems to Say Something different than the treaty. So theres not a lot of optimism amongst all just people that ive talked to here in london. That b, e, d, e, c, h r d, you appear in court of human rights will be able to save drawing. Jo, give us your assessment of the governments case, the Justice Department, star witness is a convicted liar and a pedophile. Certainly the prosecutors wouldnt want to go into court with that. It seems to me that it would be better for everybody if the prosecutors offered julian to deal with time served and then allow him to go home to us trail. Yeah. That way, washington save space and julian would be free. Is that even under discussion to the best of your knowledge . Jennifer robinson, one of the joins lawyers in australia, but whos works here in london. Actually set for the 1st time at the National Press club and camera on may 22nd. That they would consider a plea, but what is it going to play to that was never said before. There was talk of a so called out ford, please, which is a bizarre, a thing in the us. Thats where a defendant can say, im not guilty. I didnt do this, but im not going to get a fair trial. I know this is it will help us. I just want to get out. So ill plead guilty technically, but i didnt do it. And this is what david hicks in australia and it was thrown into one tournament, actually used to, to get a plea deal in which they sent him back to australia serv, 7 months. So when this became a, theres a lot of exciting when biden was going to go to sydney to meet with albany to the Prime Minister anthony alban, ancient australia, and then it canceled the last minute is trip. But just before that timeline, kennedy, the american, and that, yes, the daughter of slain j. F k. The door to the now us and baskets are still invited. 6 problem and 2 items from 3 to 2 parties, one independent to come for lunch, and camber, at the American Embassy to discuss join us. Obviously, that couldnt have happened without the state department. Its not the white house approving that. So there was all this excitement in albany, he went on tv shortly 5 days before that he had said on a b, c, television. Its john broadcasting progression when he was here in london for the current nation that he, what he has talked to american officials who can watch the case to and hes worried about his health. So there was, this came up and then we found out the f, b, i still investigating the case and then the judge decided to just the hearing. So if theres going to be a plea, its got to come up the last minute. And then joe biden remembers what he said in 2010. Who knows . He would follow the principal then because nothing has changed, his case should be dropped. He knows that he knew there was no basis for it back then. And he knows now my, what the Trump Administration did was add some to the computer intrusion conspiracy chart which they got this guy in iceland, as you say, a convicted of thoughts there to say to the f b i as an informant, that, that julian was going around telling people to hack and what was happening, and then the guy came forward to in australia to iceland, a newspaper instead. I lied. It, elijah, that thing collapses. That part of the case would collapse if the court steps that this guy stays now, then he lives. So nothing has changed for the 2010 and by that should do something to the right thing with the julian supporters plan in the event that hes extradited to the us. If that happens, julian would be tried in the notorious District Court for the Eastern District of virginia. Thats the home district of the c i a and the defense department. So whats the strategy . And theres got, theres a big closet in front of the federal courthouse and alexandria, which i have an apartment just a minute drive from there. By coincidence, i hope i will have to make that drive to cover this trial. But if hes there, i think that plaza would have to be filled with supporters and protests from around the country. Its not the world thats number one. Number 2, there has to be heavy pressure. Um, uh well this has to happen now and then hasnt happened. Pressure on the politicians, members of congress. No, julian has gotten support from president s in latin america from now the Prime Minister of his own country and the human rights. What major human rights watch. Sorry, human Rights Groups and press freedom groups. Im all come out behind them even though you have times on those other papers. I mention wrote a joint letter to merit garland, each american attorney general saying dropped the charges. This is a threat to free press to, its not just about drawing sondra, and nothing has happened yet. So what the strategy be other than to make a ruckus, and to try to make it a difficult political issue for me, but for joe biden, because it is going to be an election coming up next year. And despite and want a media circus there, and where it becomes clear that hes prosecuting a reporter for reporting wrongdoing by the United States, which is withdrawal supposed to do. Its so clear that becomes clear and clear to the public. And most importantly, if m. S n b c, which on the night it was arrested, said it was wrong because all drugs are a threat here the New York Times editorial back then said that let alone this letter. So they know the mainstream and the most powerful like m assembly to like the New York Times in the United States. They know what this means to journalism to their own jobs. I remember rachel metro that night saying i dont like them, you know, which of them liking because of the dnc leaks, which is by the way, right. But its not moving because its not in the, in that much the dnc leaks or so the, the democrats still say helped hillary blues despite the terrible campaign she, she ran and he was just published for information. Nobodys denied that members of the and see how to resign because it was true. And the see i have all the 7 leeks, which infuriated the c i a unplugged pay on to do, which is when he went after, during that and even as we know from a court case in spain. And then by yahoo is reporting that there was a plans disgusted for his in or kidnapped julie, aside from the embassy. This is the cause of the c i a leak and the dns. So, so i think barton is going to be, shes being pressure to, would be by the dnc is on party with, hes supposed be the head of m a c. I a, a not to let the guy go, which has nothing to do with the indictment at that. So buying us go back to square one back to meet the present 2010. When he said, we didnt prove that he stole the documents and we cant. And the items, uh, nothing is in the indictment about the bmc leaks or the c audio. Its a purely political issue that changed the face of this case. For the brett uh, by an administrative trump invited trump indicted him. Trump took advantage of his arrest by this new government and ecuador, this the truck and ministration that why would the bottom restriction follow the heated Donald Trumps administrative . Right . Because it serves the c, r a and the dnc. You know, joe laurie, i thank you for your insights and thanks to our viewers for tuning in being a profit in the wilderness. Speaking truth to power often leads to poverty and punishment. Its far easier to follow the wins of public opinion, but some things are black and white right or wrong, and its always better to speak truth to power. Thats what Julian Assange has done. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers im john curiosity. Well see you next time. 2 the of the european nations ultimately experienced that transformation with the exception that is, was kind of defeats as why the hard realities, right, or at least confronted was having this, you know, very significant weight spend, you know, the space up more or less, the more or less the only exception to the general tendency that, of course, has to deal with the fact that the jet radical situation of the United States is funding it. Is that open iowa . That is the size of the continents the, the, the, the, the echo was defense tubes of re on military action in need year without revealing their invasion plan. That has people in the west african countries protests against the regional block sanctions and intervention, the lady, the media and the people of major and to understand what echo was doing. Nothing more than some days. We have to keep our new year in Spiritual Life against us. We can get us out of this thing. Some additional youll be in the government has declared a state of emergency following clashes between Central Security forces and a Militia Group from the countries north. Russia. These 2 naval attacks and 2 days