Hello and welcome to cross software. All things are considered. Im peter lavelle, the by the administration in nature world are fascinated with soft power and rhetorical ships. Remember, ukraine will win and ukraine is winning. Now we hear russia is losing, and even russia has lost narrative manipulations do not change hard reality. The cross talking ukraine, im joined by my guess, matthew rent in montreal. Hes a senior fellow at the American University in moscow and director of the Rising Tide Foundation of canada and franklin. We have ryan christian, he is founder and editor of the last american vagabond. And host of the daily wrap up. And here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. He is a press tv correspondence. Alright, job in cross lock, rolls and effects. That means you can jump anytime you want. And i always appreciate, matthew, let me go to you 1st. I mean, one of the things i find really fast estimating about this completely unnecessary war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. And you know, we, when we are you currently, ukraine will weigh a new crane is winning. Well, now we dont hear this anymore. We, we hear russia is lost, but by implication, does that mean ukraine has one, save the business . This hold discursive, manipulation doesnt make any sense, and its not naming a lot of fraction, matthew, and non true, your thoughts to be very short. So that is what it is in imply, implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic a trick of soft the street and, and the idea would be that if, if a, thats be, if there is indignation here, there must be a positive here, which is what they wish to convey a sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past, but i think that its wearing off very, very deeply right now is there is a, a certain fatigue amongst the western population in which, which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just about to lose for, well, well, over a year, really, since the 1st days of the military intervention began. And, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations. Of europe and including the United States as well, a destruction of ability, basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse and sitting on the precipice. All of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. So i think that people are not really buying the same plate as they used to be there. You know, ryan, um it was very interesting. Last week, Robert F Kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show, and of course hannity going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. Kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but a reasonably good Historical Context to it. And the crowd cheered. It was remarkable. You know, hannitys own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. That gets to the point with met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. Its a, its a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. Ryan, i whole heartedly agree. And i think whats interesting, the, the, what youre highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the Corporate Media right now is, but just from my perspective, as far as i can tell where they are constantly pushing the narrative, they want their audiences to believe and you see this in, in, you know, discussions where theyre saying my audience doesnt believe in conspiracy theories. Well, you know, theyre basically telling them how to think. And the truth is, as youre seeing in that example, is you know, that they are asking these questions. And if theyre there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers in regard to the original question. I think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on, on myself, included that whats going on. And ukraine is predominately about meyer in russia into this endless engagement. The same conversation that was had about afghanistan with the, with the move to dean and, and ultimately could argue to some degree that was effective. And that might be why its being applied today. You know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long see operation before you know, been in regard to so be union and now with russia. But i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has no last, its really kind of highlighting the real point here. Its not about you brain winning, and i think we all see that its a at x at ukraines expense. Just making sure rush of loses and even then i still dont think thats even whats happening. But thats just again, this is the narrative. We want you to be spreading. Yeah. And its, its very interesting. Theres, they, they wont let me know if that will make this unfounded claim that russia has lost, but they never will say that ukraine is one because its probably not true. Johnny. One of the things, its always interesting any and even kind of, you know, media that is sympathetic to a, a realist interpretation. But they always talk about mis rushes, miscalculations and mistakes and all that. But theyll never say defined administration or other administrations have made any mistake. Is it maybe the drive to expand nato is somehow a given a and its a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. Go ahead. Johnny as well. Yes. The sides uh, keep each other miscalculation has lots of miscalculate that i think they, they close their what would be over by now. I think that they homes that they send metrics and the grading surround tia as opposed to going to make a deal. But i also suspect of us uh, what about uh list, if you like the possible outcomes and the dates are fully back in the grade and the amount of money when they send that i think the lessons are noon. Thats a possibility service. I think thats what i was able to now, but i know to suspect that as well, but im sorry i may. Well, i may well across the situation right now, but as the se miscalculations by the west of the north, they host the sanctions of triple the russian economy. That hasnt happens a sections of how to do it more than theyre not russia. And in this echo chamber, which politicians Civil Society journalists live in the west, you can hardly pick up a newspaper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is. How frustrated blast, uh these things on shoot. I live in an echo chamber and they call themselves into thinking you create really, really counseling this was. But since they found out the need, so is nice or weaponry. Some very sophisticated reformation, theyve done like anything else. They reach the device from the bottom line. So i think the west has massive payments, calculates it multiple times in this war, and as i say, its being ignored by the western media. You know, its, its such a good point, johnny matthew. Um are they we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an off ramp. You hear that all the time, you know and offer him from this year. But they, they never question. Why would, why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. All the Major Players that were involved, the admitted, yeah, it was a scam my word, but thats what they said it was a scam. So whats the off ramp here of negotiations . You know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but theres no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people, particularly since its not losing matthew. Yeah, its a strange little bit of um, its a self delusion which just keeps on repeating it itself. And when you think that they cant get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd, which has been proven to be wrong. So many times. I mean, it seems as though, unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, a complete returning of premier and Everything Else to, to key of and rush of paying reparations and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal. Then the, then the International Community is not supposed to are told, were not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. But at the same time, as wed say that were like, well, lets give russia somebodys skipper. Its absurd, rough as is completely, is completely dominant. I believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. And i think its really just the question now at this point of seeing where, where the cards fall fall since the whole Financial System again, is creating a bit of a timeline of, of how long we have to really play this game. Since once the banks do knelt down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times likes to be present skis, wet dream, of the 198 late seventys throughout the 80s. That to, that is not really there this time around, back in the eightys the us was still relatively financially stable. Whereas now its a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that weve never seen before. So with that, i dont really know exactly how, how theyre, theyre Going Forward in front of the United States because they live with delusions, you know, you know, right, its, its very interesting here is that, you know, the, the, the narrative from the west its, its very more realistic, its very hollow, but its more or less big. And its very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that. And so moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it, the russians are interested in security. Its always been that thats from the very, very beginning to the moment were speaking right now. Security for all nobody in the west in power is willing to consider that ryan. I mean, i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people. But i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, its very clear that theres been repeated Red Lines Crossed at the us. Government has been actively trying to make this happen. That russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that you were to demonstrate restraint to not take the bait. I mean, we can see this happening repeatedly in, in ukraine, but also with syria and then over the overlapping that with the larger point about not allowing this to end. Its the same thing with syria. Well, were not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. So it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. And to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. Will ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have boded internationally observed legally to be a part of this country because theyre being ethnically, cleanse will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. Same thing with crimea by the way, and they have said this publicly what they want to do to the people. So its really hard not to see the reality. And that speaks to the big illusion about the western media. Try to sell the people that dont want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here, but you know, brian brings up a really good point. These people in crime in the don batson, never given any agency it whatsoever. Its really, its really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about a rules based order. Go ahead before we go to the break, johnny lee i think a lot of time and dont last long time in the last year or so. And i can speak to the vast majority of people in dont bass and try me on a new 1. 1 of the boss of ukraine, and this is being census by the west, the media because when they realized that the vast majority of human dont boss have been boned by credit to so long and didnt try to be once we bought of russia, then you realize that, well, there is a peep, there is an opportunity to vcr, if you realized that, that well, it is optical that you create and gives off the top chaise. Thats why people try me. Are people talking about the use of incenses . Because its by inconvenience, having all these people do want to be part of russia, and i thought it was the realize that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. Okay, when gentlemen, im going to jump in here and were going to go to a short break. And after that short break, well continue our discussion on ukraine state with r t the the that the says is that how much is panel . Well, no longer live the so im not fixing that amount of money. Was avoid the mistake dental to share because ive already view need another shad low but i wanted to do policy and follow crumbs on to look really i did was i ask whom i can easily do that sir. No that you might know the import us when you might need to allow for us to have to vicki disability. I just need to work it out for the morning. May offer us the on the would you put it on the restroom . Back on fish vinnie sheets i have confirmed it offers cool lot, but just showing do you mind giving me the number that you know, hold on, let me know you got the like motor and ask you some history on for me to also define my force back on my list, i sort of despair. I make all that i have to get in and wont come up between im but im in the library and i figured theyve done with b print up to ive been with us on the phone. What do those shifts . Yes, that when you the money dont songs, you know, mid thank you. Family and 0. You will get onto to ship us. Like i said, i am pacific left on the the known in vietnam as the american war, the vietnam war lost its almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. Nor does he have written down that you dont see it. Now. What is all im empty . Hundreds of thousands of american troops was sent to the country to back the south vietnamese on me. I thought about that not, but the american soldiers murdered resistors. Most of us like the down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals and lee lead up day bye. All right, did the americans ever fully acknowledge what they did and on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thats, thats a ways to but yeah, the welcome back to across stock were all things are considered non peter in the bill to remind you were discussing ukraine of the okay. When it go back to johnny here in in moscow because its saying what you were saying right before the break, this soul jermaine and with western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of Self Determination, particularly in the don bass in crimea, because, you know, the, the west will always push Self Determination when its in, its geo political interest. But if its not, they ignore it. Then they denigrated speak to that for our audience, johnny. A. This is why i spend so much time in dry me with the boss because the indians should not side if you listen to the is a piece of solution is, is possible. Its interesting that almost new western journalists goes the cry me out on boss. Why . Because if they didnt go that they would have no choice. But to report what ive been reporting the majority once he bought a rush and its just very convenient for me to get nbc just when i recently did buy some of it for the items and he was put on a famous ingredient fitness. No, no on us for that, but most people use math. So what do you want to politically convenience, if people send these inconvenienced, im not just ignoring often austins a smith. So its a very important point you make, but i think its important to listen to people who dont pass and copying some of those your costs on. Id say its more of a mix. The certainly more pretty creative and kind of in a dumbass still huge support school for the russian stuff. So its important we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and asked me if this is the beginning of peace. When we see saucers, reports in the west, the media saying, well, they didnt crime us, maybe a given dont want to join motion, i think then you might see uh the quote on moving towards the district associations. Yeah. Yeah its, its really interesting, matthew, me when we and we listen to people on the ground going to be before all of this started in 2014 Public Opinion poll after another in ukraine. It was, it was less way less than 50 percent around, maybe 25 percent of people that were interested in nato. And, and now were told you know, that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime. Which of course, when he was running for president , he was basically a piece candidate. And so nato is bitten off way too much so that it can chew on. And i, ive a my predictor, maybe im in the minority right now, but this was a bridge too. Far for this alliance, claiming itself that being defense, and i think we could see the end of nato as a result of this. Eventually matthew, as well, i think the viability of the institution, which when i mean a lot of it is largely lots of ties all day so well over 30 years ago. I have but it has come to it is taken a huge hit obviously. And at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people all mass voted for zaleski was because they perceive that he was going to be an anti nazi. You know, he is a jew, hes going to be an anti nancy candidate. He was going to seek peace and uh, and with some form of a win win, a point of co existence with russia. And he spoke that we catered to that demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the same puppet, but he always was simply biding his time and being used by agencies. I dont even think he fully understands and possibly that hes petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as weve seen with his uh, the recent uh, documentary series by scott ritter. Um, but i think overall youre right, the, the, i, the very institution of nato has become the rest before world war 3. Nobody even a needle once ukraine to be a part of it at this point. And uh, and it is with that losing its an entire building to carry a coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato was so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine, well, he doesnt induct it it doesnt care about ukraine, it doesnt care about ukrainian people whatsoever. You know what we heard at the very beginning of the conflict that youd be secretary defense. So this is about weakening russia. It has nothing to do with ukraine. And then, you know, and ive said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. What will psychiatrist say about a government that is using their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. Its amazing to me, ryan, it is, but i think they might want to take a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the Us Government has done throughout its history. But what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, bite and in his joint press conference with the finish. President said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them into nato and till boot and pulls out. And ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, wont that just give putting the justification to drag this out. And i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said is that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to, to use its resources to stay focused on this area. And i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what were trying to do. So lets just keep brushing mired here because i alternately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. But you know, the funding of the also have moved into what they really are the nazi you neo nazi elements and how this ties back to the c i gave you an operation, aerodynamic or project aerodynamic. And how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazis into ukraine and then that drip that went over into the United States. And thats why were dealing with this rise of White Supremacy and nazi of them. And i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. So i think now theyre just resigned to say, lets just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. Because remember 30 seconds ago, the native conversation was a conspiracy theory, and now its absolutely were going to once this ends. So we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. Just say, lets just keep them stuck here. Well yeah, exactly what, what theyre doing, what syria obviously is a good example. Youre right. You know, Johnny Johnny is, its really, really interesting, isnt it . Is it particularly the left in america . They see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isnt it . Yeah, the environment is demoya things and they can support you great in the morning, so youre going to be destroyed. I can do lessons to be quite happy with the child should have already taken as long as nature continues to point the crate and purchased the ticket with this or talk of, of us in terms of the not. So you do not see elements the system testing documentary is the stop by the guardian time magazine. Yeah. Advice isnt that some good work . And suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was never a whole when it will start of something that i dont even know how to fix johnny. They even went with, with allocation from the american congress. There was a provision that in the, these nazi factions and brigade should not in America American money, and thats been memory. Hold still. Okay. Its bought actually before go ahead. I did that on 2016 was when they originally said no. And then quietly made sure it happened. And then again in 2018, they added that they cannot order. They also have moved and even indirectly. And now they currently are. So theyre violating their own legislation. But you know, ultimately it, its, it seems to be very clear that this was about, we want people to see that theres not these here, like hes pointing out like we see the problem. And then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. We started to realize this was seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the Field Operation here. Yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was a 2 months ago or so are they New York Times had this big expose a about the nazi problem and ukraine on it. And its a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know, just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. But the further single time we are in the article, it shows that its ubiquitous in, in ukraine. Its really needs to be internal as here. I mean they, they, theyre, theyre scribes to power. And i mean, theyre not even very good propagandists anymore. Matthew. Yeah its, its really, um, its desperate and you even saw the recently b a d l even came out saying that the, well, you know, the as of vitale and yeah, theyre, theyre bad. But now we support them. That the as of movement, which is different. Its, its a mike had some neo nazis in it, but its not like a battalion there. The other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. Its a different spirit. So go, go to love how they tie themselves into a pretzel. These people. Yeah, no its, its, they can avoid their own, their own absurdities in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works. And if people see this, when youre, when youre trying to Like Fighting some math problem, a little a little error at the beginning, seems like something. Is there a reason why the person who keep north is it just builds up and builds up a few steps down your youve got a giant mass, you cant resolve and theyre there at that place and beyond that. And theres still try to fudge the data to, to make it seem like theres no miscalculation. You know, johnny, the, the, ive said very often in this program, the more the west tries to help you crane the smaller in smaller, it gets okay. And if there is no honest interlocutor to speak to in the west, ukraine will get smaller. Its as simple as that, johnny. Yeah, absolutely. Um. And that needs to be an offer on somewhere. I would say, potentially a good about lincolns comment saying rosseters losing. Ultimately, i mean its, its, its, its go hard to how the could you create an account, spencers failings, a catastrophic place. But if nato is the end to peace negotiations, as russia goes, jasons will be giving up like least giving all the time she lost her has taken. Theyre going to have to sell it as of extra you create is going to all of john johnny. I already have, i already have the bumper sticker. I already i came up with this a few months ago. It least potent didnt make it to pair us. We won. Thats how the salad. Right. Let me get right. Let me get right in here. Go ahead. Ryan, a hi, i just think thats hilarious because its just, its typical of always its, its the Mission Accomplished moment of bush just ex, 3 across the world. You know, it just so ridiculous how they cant be honest with the population, even. I mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things that might be seen as positive. You know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a win, is just exactly what theyre known for throughout history. And i, you know, i really demonstrates how we can desperate they seem to be. And this is the fault, the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. And i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. Because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. And thats, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the American People and actions like this. Demonstrate that, in my opinion, well in mind, just to continue. I mean, it has to be explained to the public enemy, and there are many, uh, and we have a lot of friends, you know, Max Blumenthal every month, a glen greenwald, bank, and more than these kind of people are they explain why empire is bad for the American People, but its hard to get through that after what, 70 years of, of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right. Before we go to uh, before we finish up, go ahead. Yeah, i completely agree. Its, its, its brainwashing ultimately and we see this with every, every narrative. Were dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. I really do feel that people are seeing through this. Americans are seeing through this, and thats demonstrated with the cold, with narrative, with all with ukraine. And i think that thats why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. And so theyre pressing more. But i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. Yeah, the more they push it to more negative return, so they get gentlemen, thats all the time we have one to take my guess in montreal, franklin and in moscow. And of course i want to thank our be worth for watching us here in our t. So unix time and remember prospect rolls the, you know, probably maybe some, some of the week monday or is cisco web shows or some are used to work with me. Right. And i have the email as well. Since i put the general, put some of the things up, the tools and notes and that leaves the windows of both employees if you need. Because usually the media is theyll give us why. Why would you get to see it but not least screen that that was the, the, the, to the transitional governments of working at fast. So then molly, one that any military intervention against media would be tantamount to a declaration of war against 14 and fast. When molly mccain about so as molly born against any, its a fair ring to meet you after you went to a residence that a could authorize the case, a full civilian casualties mounts and made me crazy of selling the country is increasingly seen. I think testing ground to the us, donald trump is invited on for federal charges including conspiracy. But he dismissed as the nearest steps to distract the public attention from the scandal within finding the