When so many find themselves worlds apart, just to look for Common Ground time after time they were going underground 24 hours after afghanistan and the un cohosted a conference to safeguard Development Project after a charity save the children found over 26000. 00 children have been killed or maimed as a result of the u. S. U. K. War in afghanistan, coming up on the show. What fate lies in store for the socalled graveyard of empires . As u. S. President trump withdraws thousands more troops from afghanistan. A country used as a battleground by foreign powers. For decades, we ask the former Senior Adviser to the u. S. , special representative for afghanistan, and i want Everyone Needs to know as little rocket attacks, kill or injure scores in kabul. All this and more coming up in todays going on the ground, but 1st rocket attacks on the capital. Kabul greeted the news of President Trump finally fulfilling part of his election promise to draw american troops from 1000 years and counting of war in afghanistan. British troops remain. Joining me now is, the former Senior Advisor to the u. S. , special representative for afghanistan and pakistan and author of the new book, afghanistan, what Everyone Needs to know dr. Bonnet. Ruben. He joins me now from new york city bomber. Thanks so much for coming on before i even get to the book. Really. What do you make of us president elect . John doesnt agree with that title, joe biden saying that tony blinken is going to be his secretary of state in january. Of course i know tony blinken, i also know very well sullivan, who is going to be the National Security advisor because i work with someone i was in the government, theyre both very, very sensible, knowledgeable people with a great deal of international experience. So i think its a, its a very good side to any monk and i always, they supported wars in syria, libya, afghanistan, and iraq. Did you send this book . Because i dont know if this isnt a policy recommendation book about afghanistan, i dont know what it is. We sent this to move might bump a. O. M. Tony blinken. Oh, i havent. I havent said the book either of them, but a tony blinken is quite familiar with my views and even more familiar with my views is takes all that because he was working directly for secretary of state Hillary Clinton, when i was in the state department and we worked together on this quite a bit so they, they know very well that i was a strong advocate of a political settlement at the u. S. Troop withdrawal from the very beginning. For me, there of course, doesnt mean i agree with you expect a job in the new administration. It is not up to me waiting to hear if anyone is interested in my doing it. Because when you say that the you want a withdrawal, perhaps a phased withdrawal, even joe biden, very quick to say that trump has been wrong to withdraw troops from afghanistan, and that joe biden cited the erroneous reports apparently of russian bounties. On a u. S. Troops heads very different to the context in your new book, those reports are uncorroborated. I dont know what if any troops there may be behind them. I think what biden has said is just a repetition of long, long time u. S. Policy about money to have a counterterrorism presence in afghanistan. But once he examines the current situation, he will see that there is a choice between maintaining the agreement with the taleban and keeping those troops there. So i think when he realized when you evaluates everything, if there is reasonable progress in the negotiations and support for it from the regional countries including russia, then im sure that he will go ahead with a troop withdrawal. I would assume that he will advocate the same thing and 2020 that he did it because he did support the, the original war famously, joe joe biden. Well, they have been rocket attacks scores injured or dead in kabul in just the past few days. A horrific inquiry in australia of showing the torture and killing by australias Defense Forces of farmers and prisoners and civilians. As we just, i know the book starts with the ancient afghanistan. Remind us why the u. S. And u. K. Funded what would become those who facilitated al qaeda who sent planes to destroy the World Trade Center in new york, let alone fire them at the pentagon effectively. Well, thats, that is a false conspiracy theory. The u. S. And the u. K. Did not fund those who protected it was founded in pakistan in 1988. And perhaps you could say it grew out of the effort by the us post on saudi arabia and other. Whats your host of countries to support the Afghan Resistance to the soviet invasion of afghanistan . But it was not, it was part of it through out of the, lets say, the saudi or arab contribution to it. But it only truly evolved into its current form somewhat later in the late 1990 s. When after Osama Bin Laden had moved back to afghanistan from she, death, the people who watch our interview about of course he was a given a u. S. Visa to fundraise though in the u. S. For. And he was known as the mentor of azzam of iran. Yes, he was, he was given him a visa to come and not raise funds supposedly for the afghan, which i mean, that was a mistake at the time. Although his it is, its interesting that it the algerian of the a notch, was married to a dualisms daughter planes. And actually Abdullah Azzam and the sound bin laden had split and that of laws i was opposed to the emphasis of all right. On attacking the far enemy, you say in the book that soviet withdrawal from afghanistan by gorbachev had less to do with allowing is the mrs. To bring the fray to whatever he was more about desiring dito nt. Yes. Well, gorbachev really changed the way, say the priorities of soviet foreign policy. And he thought that internal reform was the most pressing priority. And that for that he needed a Good Relationship with the west. And that is what he, what he tried to pursue. And by one surprising thing we have maybe just some will be the right of james baker. Perhaps facilitating what we now know is war lords by withdrawing aid as part of the negative symmetry that occurred after the soviet withdrawal. Well that was yes, part of the way that the did you need the soviet union, which drew from afghanistan under accords that were cited geneva, 1988 and one president reagan saw the text he didnt like. The fact that aid to the judge did was to start before the soviets withdrew. So the u. S. Policy was that it wouldnt stop aid to the would john dean until the other side, the soviet union, and that russia stopped aid to the government in kabul, not as what they agreed on at the fall that she 91. 00, which of course, led to the collapse of the government, one of the important lessons for today is that the government in kabul did not fall with the soviet troops withdrew, but it did fall one as it was, its funding was withdrawn. So the most important thing for maintaining stability in afghanistan today is not the u. S. Troops, but making sure that the International Funding for the state, the euro, the force to yeah, i want to explore the funding in a moment. Just tell me how you have tapped my region, holbrooke to be a u. S. Special advisor on afghanistan in the end. A mention that of course he was one of the architects arguably of the war in yugoslavia where of course is the mists came to fight the sobs and then went into afghanistan. Thats when i met him. In the end 1995, i was that directing a project at the council on Foreign Relations about what we called the the south balkans and i, thanks to holbrooke, i actually met Slobodan Milosevic our visits of serbia in 1905. And i also met the leaders of the course of our albanians and message only as on both sides. And i was in touch with holbrooke throughout occluding during the word caution and 1999. And so we had, we became friends at that time. And thats really what led to his death. His drafting me for this position, he was aware am i wrong to ask you in there . Actually, his involvement in yugoslavia helped create the kind of islamism that led to the 911 attacks. I think it never occurred to him and never occurred to me because its untrue. So there were no islam as fight as his opponent Osama Bin Laden in the yugoslav war, fighting on the side of the of the european interests as it was. Yes, there were some, but that was not a cause of of the rise of islam isnt. That was a result of that. And of course, those people have very little of no influence at bosnia today. Ok, but of course its kind of strange. I suppose. If people watching in yugoslavia the worst massacre in europe in recent times, a stubborn each a whole rig a very controversial figure. Do you have to discuss that . Well, course that was a massacre carried out by Bosnian Serbs against against so it the defenseless muslims, the separate needs. And we have discussed it in particular because of mutual friend david rohde, who was a reporter at the time, was kidnapped and held captive by the Bosnian Serbs for quite some time. And holbrooke had to use quite a bit of deferment of effort to get him released. And then david rohde was kidnapped by the taliban. While i was working with holbrooke and we had to make quite an effort to get released by the taliban. Including going to see the king of saudi arabia to discuss it with him. You come when i mean, all brooks said is on the record i was in tears saying i was told to sacrifice throbber nature. I suppose what he means by that is that the use u. S. And u. N. Forces were not did not intervene against the massacres and separates it. Carried out by the Bosnian Serbs. I mean how we see things and cause of our bad today. But in this welcome in afghanistan, and you criticized obamas emphasis on Counter Terror at the expense of Civil Society building. Just to explain a bit about that, because i mean, how many cars i, whos been on this show has alleged that actually the United States under obama was facilitating al qaeda weaponry movements in afghanistan. And that is the former leader of afghanistan, telling us that, well, i know how matures, i really well, weve been friends for a long time, but i felt that in recent years he has believed some conspiracy theories. There was things didnt go his way and i was one of them that was not sure now because theyre always oriental list arguments of why certain people holes become conspiracy theorists and so on and so on. I think even in this book, and you do point to why he would be normal and to be expected. The people in the global south, middle in afghanistan would have this theory that the us has always funded alqaeda and then learn isis in more recent times. Given what it feels like on the ground in afghanistan from the provinces to the cities. But i dont know if i call the ideas about conspiracy theories, orientalist isaacs, no country in the world is as it has as many conspiracy theorists right now as the United States. We are, we are suffering a great deal from that. So its not, its not something that is unique to afghanistan or the global south, you know, 80 percent of the republicans in the United States believe that the president ial election was so well of, of course when people are powerless and unable to control votes, things dont seem to make sense, they try to come up with serious records, which they do make sense. And often the way that they seem to make sense just to posit that there actually is some secret power that is controlling everything from a line ads. But unfortunately, the world is much more chaotic so that, well, in fairness to our current president , and i know the book ends before the peace deal. He did succeed in a peace signing deal, don trump, between the taliban in the Afghan Government. I support that agreement. However, it is not yet a peace agreement, its an agreement about withdrawal of u. S. Forces which also calls for peace negotiations between the Afghan Government and the taliban leading to a cease fire. Those have barely started and i, i do not anticipate that the Biden Administration will, will, the policy will be much different from that. I think the by the administration will also support the Peace Process the reading your book. This was a, just a big change. I mean, you yourself say that when you, you called holbrookes policy of covert destabilization of afghanistan. Crazy. And i mean that was going on through clinton bush, obama trump as beam the savior hasnt. Well holbrookes what i called crazy was not what you are referring to, which is which is a bunch of different policies which. d you are referring to as the destabilization of afghanistan, which some of them had better say that was not their intention. But what i just said that it was crazy for holbrooke to think that he could effectively improve the performance of the government of afghanistan by promoting electoral competition against president public karzai. In 2000, holbrooke, for instance, a very much agreed with my analysis of the drug policy and he led the effort to stop a crop eradication and move our drug policy efforts to alternative livelihoods and interdiction of traffickers instead. Funny all, some of them more from talk demonic. Ruben, after this short break now with a postmortem. How did you, Major Political parties changed in this election cycle . Joe biden, maintaining to already be condemned by the democratic coalition. Is there such a thing as a trump . Is or did he change the g. O. P. Or did g. O. P. Welcome back. Im still here with dr. Bonnet rubin, former Senior Advisor to the u. S. , special representative for afghanistan and pakistan, and author of a new book, afghanistan, what Everyone Needs to know. People all around the world are affected by the opium turns into heroin on their streets. And your book seems to just knock down one policy after another as a doomed to failure. The reason for that is that all of those policies are taking place within the current global regime, narcotics, which is to treat narcotics addiction as criminal rather than as a medical problem. And the result is that the medical problems people have with addiction get charged to a massive criminal syndicates still to be treated and create more problems than they saw. Well, not sure if you get a job in the, in any Biden Administration thats going to go down. Well, joe biden is an architect of the war on drugs which let alone what you itemize as a failure in afghanistan. And has completely the opposite of what you just, i think youll find that people are capable of learning from experience if, if aid is now a subject here in britain, because we may be cutting it because of coronavirus. You are also university, a colleague, nematollahi says 2 thirds of foreign aid is not going through the Afghanistan Government and that reduces effectiveness and has quote adverse implications for building state capacity. Normally we get the accusation that, oh, you know, if you give the money to the Afghan Government, it will lead to corruption in your book. No, that isnt the case. My give it to afghanistan to spend that money on afghanistan. Theres no way to spend that amount of money without generating corruption, because its, you know, afghanistans a very poor country. We were spending more than the g. D. P. Of afghanistan in afghanistan. The problem is, of course, if you send the money to the government such as that theres a problem of corruption. The government also has a very poor record of what is known as budget execution. That is a being able to use the money to implement programs. So a lot of it sits there and years rather than being stolen or used. And thats why aid providers go outside the system. But theres just as much corruption in the aid that goes outside the system as there is in the aid that goes inside the system. While aid organizations and the Afghan Government will refute what you just said, that in this book you say that u. S. Policy and cash effectively enabled the how conny network, which you might have to explain what that is. How did, how did the aid money end up helping the militant movement that obviously threatens the lives of men, women and children in afghanistan and beyond . Well, im not sure what you are referring to in the book. The Economy Network is a part of the taliban, as i said, when you spend that much money is such a poor country, there is always a great deal of leakage. And there was theres corruption in the Afghan Government. And there is also ways that the taliban and others were able to tax the movement of goods along the highways and support himself. He in this book, one of your coauthors doctrine to in your good times he says that the taliban really did naught engaging global jihad. And in fact, the 1st time ever was when the taliban began to support socalled rebel groups in syria to overthrow assad backed, of course, by the british. And american governments is a kind of echo of the backing of the mujahideen against the soviets. The taliban did not formally support anyone in syria. They had their hands quite full on afghanistan. There were some individuals who went to fight there, but most of the foreign fighters who went to fight in syria were not survive gassed. And most of the foreign fighters from afghanistan in syria actually are on the government side because iran recruited large numbers of afghan shia to form a coalition called such my union, which is fighting on the side of president assad. So, but it is true very important. It was part of my argument favor a political settlement. While the accepted aid for global jihad is say, themselves never engaged global jihad or on all their activities have been in afghanistan itself. You have a guess waving about the, i mean, youre azerbaijan going for going to gay sions that Syrian Rebels are coming across to support the turkish infiltration in the goal. No. Karabakh trump though, drew down, arguably on the syrian war. He didnt go the way. Maybe Hillary Clinton might have also said, tried to always play down the obama killing of bin laden. Some people might be surprised by one of the lines in your book on afghanistan, the death of bin laden in 2011. Changed little is the case that thats kind of emblematic of media distortions of whats been happening in afghanistan, changing little on the ground in afghanistan, which is what this book its about. Of course, it was affected things for but outside it was already a decline at the time it appears to be in decline since then as well. Weve recently had the report, perhaps of the law, the successor, and most all he may have died of natural causes. Popish them very recently and it is your understanding the taliban is no friends with alqaeda right now. Well i think there are very close relations within the 2 groups. In other words of titus supports the taliban. And in return for that they get protection. But the top on do not actively support oversight is global jihad, and in fact, alqaeda is no longer the same organization. It was then, as you see, its been quite a long time. Now, since al qaeda has launched, a direct attack against the United States or the u. K. , instead theyre active supporting some simple sympathizers in yemen and syria, in north africa, in the senate, democratic republic of congo and so on. So they should have changed their strategy away from attacking the socalled foreign enemy, always in thousands of drowned in the mediterranean to the libya war, the british and american and french bombing of libya. How far the taliban or that al qaeda infiltrate and a war. Again, im to say supported by tony blinken, the secretary of state designate of a job by ministration. Far as the Afghanistan War now entering the mediterranean coast of north africa and under. 2 all that, i mean, there are no, there are no reports, and ive never heard of anyone from afghanistan being a little bit there. Maybe there are some people from alqaeda there, but theyre arabs from the region. If we started to play that game, i can tell you plenty of times that russia has supported fascists to putting people out with it were which of course, a lot of damage to russia. Im afraid politics is a dirty game, but that doesnt mean i think that putin is a fashion is a, is a supporter of the so if youre comparing the United States support for the libya war, the tony brink, it was involved in with the, with the mole and 12 ribbentrop pact. No, no, no, im just saying in general, you know, you are, you know, us is, has made a lot of mistakes and us as we were involved with some very harmful groups often and they were as a result of their being very poor choices to begin with. I mean, it can indicate a case, but in the case of libya in old day where they believed that colonel gadhafi was on the verge of launching a mess, massacre of civilians in eastern libya. And that is why actually russia originally supported the, the operation. It did get expanded into a regime change operation, but it may be that there was, i dont know that there was a better alternative available because when you have a very brutal regime, a one man regime like that of colonel gadhafi, some kind of changes inevitable. And its very difficult for it to be carried out in a peaceful way because of the lack of institutions. Yeah, we had russian and chinese officials tell us that they regretted the of sentients of the u. N. Security council over libya right now in your, of their mean repeated the terror attacks by people claiming to support isis. Diasporan in this book, isis apparently comes from or this is catalyzed by dissident taliban via guantanamo, not dietitians on a diet. Was founded in iraq. However, there is a branch of it in afghanistan, pakistan, mostly they were pakistani former taliban plus or some afghans whole bunch. Who had been a while. John boehner, who had been sort of converted to the solve our version of islam while they were at sea were they were actually expelled because of that. But they say started this new organization over that group is now pretty much wiped out. Isis has, i mean, effectively defeated to the Syrian Government claims in syria. We actually asked on this Program President about the roots of the syrian conflict, the discontent, economic inequality in syria that sparked the uprising in 2011. In this book, you talk about elites in afghanistan, being educated in the u. S. , and coming back to afghanistan and the dangers in that new liberal economics creating more inequality than there already is. And there are a lot of graphs in this book about the Economic Situation in afghanistan, leading to yet more tension. Maybe even more islam is to support as the money rises to the top or the money there is, there has been a problem will solve our economic policies. For instance, the farmers will probably made such or of production of poppy and her have told senators that if he wanted to if we wanted them to shift away from opium poppy, we should provide subsidies for the growing us because they used to be a big center for growing cotton, but cotton, if they grew it just for the free market, it will be profitable. And of course, taught in the subsidized everywhere around the world, including in the United States. Then cotton subsidies in the United States actually are greater than the amount of aid that we give to afghanistan. But the us law prohibits so supporting providing subsidies for a crop that might compete with the United States. So a plus, of course it was against new liberal economic doctrine, so we never did provide a spot subsidy. So there are many cases when, unfortunately that policy was counterproductive. And just finally and briefly, if we do get drawdowns of troops, regardless of who won the november president ial election, you do also talk in the book about the rise of private military contracts. As by previously a fan, hes suddenly mean bankrolled. His campaign by quite a few military, private contract to firms, but the Trump Administration also supported the privatization of military engagement. Do you expect more of that in the future . Im not aware of the being supported by private military contractors on the whole the, you know, i remember when i was in the government Eliot Clinton was working very hard to try to jive dying couric contract. And i remember her actually screaming at Richard Holbrooke that she didnt become secretary of state, wanted to have done for another contract, and she was trying to keep trying to get rid of it. But of course, as the u. S. Draws out of walter, it presence there will have less use for private military contractors and the largest one, the one that used to be known as x. See it will is headed by the brother of the current secretary of education and he is a very, very strong supporter and was involved in some of the of the sure nation operations as well against against i think it was right. Surely. You know what . It is what we invited erik prince on the show. Dr. Bonnet. Ruben. Thank you. Thank you. Thats in the show. Well be back on saturday. 30 is the day, an architect of the liberal with margaret thatcher, resigned as Prime Minister after years of using u. K. Taxpayer money to fund a majority in afghanistan, whose members would catalyze the 911 attacks on new york and washington d. C. Until then. He would join the underground on you tube, twitter, and instagram, and facebook users. Financials, i dont buy any. Im with you. Almost friday as of last summer, buying from the future tracker was kaiser the world of football mourns the death of an argentinian superstar. Diego maradona whos died at the age of 60. Donald trump continues to pardon a number of key aides before leaving office with the latest being former National Security advisor michael doubts are raised over the astra zeneca covert vaccine. As the u. S. Study claims, it doesnt work well on older people and European Partners and russias north scream 2 gas pipeline. Slam u. S. Efforts to derail the project