Welcome do going on the ground. A lot of people talking about britain, possibly breaking International Law rove a break said, but your new book is so beautiful and eloquently written about Britains Justice system. How difficult was it even to write a book at such a damning account of the judicial system . Here from the inside to be honest with you, to spend a bit of time last year, just thinking about what a mess weve made of our justice not just in the last few years, but foot from the century. We spent time just, you know, looking people up for no reason trying to criminalize drugs with no good to be want and even put children in prison as you know from the police, just insane. So we have a completely dysfunctional system and hospital all these years with the only side of the system. I just think its about time the people on the outside notice, like, you know, we cover the plight of julian assange, the world famous journalist, the un special rapporteur. Have neils meltzers been on this program at the edge and he was being tortured at belmont prison in london. You know, some people, i dont know, some Mainstream Media newspapers call it the holiday camps. These british presence, you begin the book and bell much i do on his or her if it place is terrible to visit. As a visitor to lawyer, it takes a long time to get even as a visitor, but to actually be an inmate there, soul destroying. I mean, i went to the special secure unit there and i saw clients in there and you know, describe the conditions in the book. Its a soul is bleak, miserable place, designed to do nothing of the human spirit. And i genuinely see anyone has been any time to which it was some people say thats what it should be like. But in the book you quote peter clarke lead 29 u. K. Chief prison inspector, claiming comparisons with before the 820 s. We are in a situation where some of our prisons are no better in the way they treat people than 200 years ago, or even in some cases 2000 years ago. You know, we particularly at the moment, i mean, i suppose supply and yesterday i suppose are not on friday. They are being locked up for 23 hours a day in a small box. Now if that isnt of course psychological torture designed to do nothing but make people go crazy and actually come out of prison and commit more crimes that i dont know what its all the, some of the defendants actually feel safer in prisons. I describe some of the really deeply damaged individuals that act it for people who are, you know, with the care system as many people in prison where they were abused as children about it. As children often end up streets and homeless and our prisons are full of people like that for whom actually, despite the terrible conditions, prison is somehow better than my family outside. And you mentioned, you know, what i enjoy life was to go to that, robi in for is a, the fruit quick min of practical advice. Before we get to the usa and russia, you trace jurisprudent trials, right, from mayan civilization. And then talk about juries. If anyones against jury trial in britain, you say, dont worry too much of judges interfere too much because juries, they dont like it. No, thats true. But my experience of egoless cheer is that anyone, but theyre not being told what to do by the judge. And if they feel the judge and giving the defendant a fake crack of the whip, the jury will say, you know, stuff, you just weaken it. Really going to decide the verdict that we like. And were going to find the defendant not guilty, whatever you might think. And of course, thats right, because thats what the system requires. The requires the jurys rigs, a verdict. But ive seen it time and again with judges try and kind of influence the jury and sight and see things about the defendant. I mean to rock defense counsel, including maybe when in the middle crossexamination did. I see the jury sit there and say, this isnt fair, and if the jury does think its fair, they will say not guilty us the great thing about the english jury system. Well over in the United States, everyone is talking about president elect joe biden. And perhaps, i mean that lots of disturbing things in your new book, but when it comes to mass incarceration the policy espoused by joe biden, you come up with something called the city of incarceration. Just explain how you see the u. S. Justice system since joe bidens reforms. Well, so that joe biden has been a huge advocate of mass incarceration. I mean that at the, for the truth is that mass incarceration is a great end in the u. S. Psyche. And in the u. S. Criminal Justice System for all sorts of reasons the, that it has prevailed on every single president of the prison population. As i say, i can so about the city of incarceration. 2350000 people in american prisons and it would be the 5th largest city in america. If it were a city that is quite staggering. I mean, when you think about the papers and population, shes over 80000, but thats the largest in western europe. But there are 2350000000 in the truth of it says that they have this huge capitalist corporate structure, a private prison environment, which he said massively. Profits of corporations and vested interests that really theres no incentive to change and it cost them hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep c with 35000000. 00 in prison. And you dont want to have the highest rates of on problem of. Well, i know you say all prisons should be closed. What you say if what you are alleging is true, that the reason things dont change is really because of the kind of corporate low being that goes on with judges. Its a mixture of things. The 1st is that there is a political attachment and its an attachment that the general public often shares to really tough sentences. So locking people up for as long as possible. Thats where you end up with hundreds or thousands of years sentences in some states because people voted for it. People like it. But the other thing is the criminal Justice System, including the prison system and many other elements of the system, is a multi 1000000000. 00 industry. And their own vested interests and they, they invest the lobby of politicians. They have many, many candidates who are supported by corporations which are profiting from the criminal justice process. And american politics often, you know, depends heavily on the lobbying of private interests in order to see it in order to push policy along. And that or not, thats a factor has been easily increasing factor not being too american prisons. Ive seen the employers of the private sector and its a really, really scary thing. Well, of course we have private prisons here spearheaded by labor and tory government. You have no time for Boris Johnsons get tough platform in the election in december. Just tell me the how of your peers treated this new book of yours because given that it wants to abolish prisons, given that it talks about this, these political pressures on justice and paints such a poor picture of justice. Not only in britain in the United States, and i should say, other countries, russia, which will get on to one of your peers, said about it. So i think many of my colleagues support the rule. Yes, its that the criminal Justice System is completely broken. But when i was writing the book, i traveled all over the us in particular in the deep south with some of the, you know, the most draconian prison sentences are imposed on some of the worst prison conditions. And the irony of it was, i spoke to judges who were responsible for imposing these very long sentences, or even the Death Penalty and to a man and woman, they all said, we know it doesnt work. We know these very long sentences are ridiculous. We know this an 18 year old to prison for the rest of his natural life. For drugs, crime is easy, a moral and counterproductive and ridiculously draining and expensive to the state and destroys whole communities. And my sense of, well, why do you do it then . They say, because if we didnt impose sentences like that, no one would vote for us and we wouldnt have a job. Hes going back to democracy. I mean, joe biden was also playing as well as supporting the crime bill that the war on drugs must be fought central in your book. Not only in the United States. You also talk about what happened in russia and russia came into crimea. Tell me about why drugs are so important to the injustice that you document in the book. As i describe in the book, i think i managed to, i mean i had a lot of research on the book. I managed to find examples of the early human 2000000 years ago, taking psychotropic drugs in the hole with psychotropic plugs and sort of coevolved by using psychotropics as off the development of the human species. And the truth is that people have taken drugs of one kind or not since time began, and they always will. And so the problem with criminalizing something which is so fundamental to who we are, all we do is that its never going to work. And when you criminalize it, all you do, if you create this, she blacked mock huge opportunities for profit, for all the nice criminals and sob sob, backbite by government. So all corruption in the state, all this just operating is these Massive International crime. It works better. You have an unregulated losses, organized crime market. What follows is types, what follows the violence, what follows is murder on the streets. But in all of these, i mean, you talk about the London Bridge attacks, you and i so many different elements of jurisprudence. You seem to be alleging by the end of the book that theres a kind of totalitarian conditioning amongst the public about what justice is. And thats why we have the crimes of the Justice System to continue. I think i think its a cultural rather than a totalitarian mindset and we in certainly the English Speaking world in britain and the us in particular. Yes, there has been this very strong drawing tools, punishment as being the aim of the system, as opposed to what most people might think the point of the system is which he said reduce the amount of crime. And theres a conflict between those 2 things. If the morning punishing a reader, tony, in way on the full physical chastisement, the Death Penalty, all very loan for tony in prison sentences, the more crime you get, what the public thinks, which is to quote unquote punish criminals and crack down is actually the feeling that results in more crime, in our society, you say prison does not work every single day of every single prison sentence make society poor. Im going to just quickly briefly ask you about the effect of coronavirus on defendants. Maybe a whole chambers of your colleagues chambers. How worried are you about coronavirus and british presence . Its a really serious problem on 2 fronts. One of coles is that the faction writes in prison and that been these big outbreaks in certain institutions, but more widely. And as i say, our speech spoken supplants just in the last couple of days who are Via Video Conferencing in prison. And they are telling me of the, of the detroit or a Mental Health crisis thats developing because they are being locked up. They are there, the education process in prison is now being closed. Theyre not out any visitors. And can you imagine that sitting in a cell as they often office flinty 2 or 23 hours a day with nothing to do . No way to go . No Natural Light and not even allowed to visit us because anybody from the outside world and i spoke to tom on friday. He said hed been in this condition for now for since the beginning of march. So its about 8 or 9 months. Even fictive solitary confinement, and so we are, you know, growth of ours is having a massive impact on people in prison. And you know, you, the public can say, well too bad, they deserve it. But those people in prison are going to come out and they get a mule, the streets, either in a month or year or in 10 years. And the more you damage them on the inside, the more damage they will do to us when they come out. Crystal, casey, thank you. After the break with new u. S. Sanctions to come into force against cuba, what example is washington still so afraid of and what lessons can new liberal countries like britain, which has transferred billions into private corporations to learn from a country with fewer than 200. 00 dead. And that spawns competition for cooperation in the fight against coronavirus. All the similar going up about to have going on the ground the world is driven by shaped by the day i think we dared to ask probe is facing probably his last battle as president , who he triumph over the generals and built by his Foreign Policy pick up where we were neo cons again, back in control. Welcome back. Britain has chosen the new labor tory path of privatized city, consultancies to help fight coronavirus now has the worst death toll in europe. This while its close its military ally, the usa with nearly as high def, a capita rate as the u. K. Chooses to wage economic war on the island of cuba. What is washington afraid off that cuba has fewer than 200. 00 dead from . , joining me from glasgow is dr. Helen u. F. A. , who appears in the new documentary, cuba and coven, 1000 Public Health science and solidarity. Helen, thanks so much for going back on to tell me how a documentary can even me made, let alone the fact that its producing vaccines because everyone in britain is focused on the scandal, had to fight as a company, as our greatest hope. How when we were doing the interviews, the talk, and she, at that point you had one or dot registered for Clinical Trials part by the time we showed the documentary that cubans now have 3 hands going back scenes on trial and 2 of them already wealthy, powerful and im saying is just incredible when you think, you know that this is a small island nation and thats has its subjects to 60 years. The science, i mean facts and terrible time of it. You thought it was hit, all right, only for 14 new measures. Sanctions are the trumpet, ministrations that its really incredible. We hope the convention he is are going to see, you know, oh yes, sources lets say are planned at the front altering this will say its a dictatorship. All those brigades, the henry review brigades, we saw pictures of in italy trying to save the lives of italians. Theyre actually human trafficked doctors and nurses. He kind of answer that in the documentary, tell me about how that may not be right. Now how do you, were really not he to be had was in one of the 50 free medical specialists who sued not only where the wealthy ecus said all of the Global Pandemic back in late march. And, and, and, and, you know, he hung that accusation. He said, all right, i am lost. I made my own decision that he explained his own journey in relation to you and placed it on me every night and out the medics while i and you know, i asked if i wanted to go on a system where its literally sitting in the attic will someone pile 500 past, ready to record and you know, he and i want to study these trials and you know, last christmas ill be impressed if they were night lights, laurie, it could be state president bush here. It. Ill just ignore you and you know, he did, this is his own patient and you mean he found out that you really felt like he and i hadnt started to help patients. Ok, well if you watch this documentary, maybe youll learn different. But if you look at socalled, Mainstream Media, theyre talking about fines or about hastert zeneca, both big pharma multinationals and covert and why do you think we dont hear about the drugs mentioned in the documentary and just fins . All these different treatments, let alone the fact that the revolution itself was, was, was key. One of his key objectives as biotech. The key run by a tech set sa is quite unique. The way it was founded very early on in the dependant of our state on a g. As a field. And it was found in 9081. So that was after. And he said, can i say its a fab in the United States and the situation because its this that has a corner me the session its going to make, is it 100 percent safe talent and all of the different institutions that western science and if it, how which is in heaven now, walker, i dont compete, they dont seek to thank for it all that the test it that ship and the whole industry set up to meet Public Health to all the population. This incredible winds of friendship between the sector, between the Public Health concepts, hat and the education sector. So its a model that essentially undermines based as you think this mainstream, this whole space has only the free market only in pursuit of profit through competition. How we have efficient outcomes. Now i would say that this response is that weve seen in countries around, well, its a kind of thing that much as candidates whose values and the principles on which each side is open eyes. And it has a time by its office to question the meaning of the fish. When you know you have a Public Health, how hoping that by the speculative race or profits, because even if there is an absolute vaccines that was made in many pressure, to be honest, how will all companies have access . And what costs will it crop to be able to access the fact that they need to save lives for the cubans . Closer to the us, its been 53. Important to pull their own facts. I mean, we saw that with the announcement about the trials of a fire for charles, the share price as you know, immediately respond and you know, you have to wonder what i think is priced and what size that it is. Also a tribute to the mobile side as a great deal of cooperation. And it is henry really being taking some of our thoughts. All that, you know, has been either of that sort of credit or credit lines here and using the more of a while. And i would think expect them to write me a great deal more cooperation off to the human medicine. All im really showing some promise that even at new british joint venture, i will preventing that critically ill and seriously ill patients. , and yeah, that there isnt in the documentary, theres a u. C. L. , lincoln university, college london. Are these good colleges, not afraid of us, 3rd party sanctions, if they cooperate on Healthcare Development with cuba, the issuance and u. S. Sanctions is a difficult one. There is. And you can legislate ation that makes it illegal for the us mckay to be in full state against an individuals companys interest. And im the same applies to your question. Why that legislation is at risk also. Thats the issue at the collaboration. And so i see if you see out of the states, they may write one of the hack ventilates. As you can see how and way to copy they all said and used pulse to create these machines that was fundraise through recent court battles. You can see the u. K. And, but you know, even for that as a Fundraising Campaign to save lives, they have to be very careful about which platforms they use. And how they said, can they share the information because money, right . Or, you know, if you can examine the cultural events issues has a whole event by almighty event, but i hate how enough will cause the u. S. Ok. Ok, i want to get on in a moment. Dont know why washington is so seemingly afraid of the cuban. He examined, but i dont know whether you noticed, but independence age is a committee advising, which is named after the committee advising boris johnson, the government. I dont know whether you think they sound like dr. Che guevara, because in the documentary, its clear that there are echoes of what a dependance age is saying here that it is localized n. H. S. Health care that is the way forward to combating coronavirus as opposed to morris johnsons. A 12000000000 Pound Commission to dido are doing hand these big city financial consultancies. What he, what do you make of this difference about why britain has 50000 dead and kuma only 850, give or has less than 250. I think the goal should be trying to make that the is essential tool in a way that you can unite with all contagion and is the Family Health care. And its right. These are the family has existed in every community. He has the highest ratio of not to have passed and he sits protestant, only those in the community. They live among medication. Even the adults got that family over night at 5 in the clinic. So help is available and people are out. They have a system where they categorize the house, they took all of that community so they immediately know if a disease, psychiatry comes along that affects people who are for spiritual problems. They immediately might agree with the former patients and the most incredible and elements. Theres almost every 19 has being, so you have your own, i mean, increase the process anyway, which youre going to see is that its everywhere in that community. And theyve been assisted by 28000 medical students. Of course, harry, unless these universities im funny and i went to whole every day. So they were in teams, were they not 100 souls . And they asked at every one in the house how, you know, how they were feeling. And they were basically tracking down when they had a suspected case, instead of leaving them in the community, they were or had taken a medical facility or an Isolation Center where they test. Its a supervised or in indys isolation. Thats great. Now they say, oh, this isolation is taking place that they will also train Contract Tracing in a very secret, not just text message is not people old. Saying anyone who has been a concern that they have been tested really seriously. And this is a highly approaches and how has this, which is preventing an overt youll and having this at all. How many wells, how ironic that seems to be the system by any and by jon snow in london with color hundreds of years ago. And what do you make then . Finally of the allegations in the documentary that washington has weaponized coronavirus, a complete contravention to what he meant. 2nd general antonio terrorism said, and how many people do you think the United States defacto killed in bolivia by forcing them to remove cubas International Brigade . Well, the residents say it is to the pressure that was pressed on the government site that century it was brazil for libya and critical to and a spell that cuba adults as while acting in those countries. And that happened to full, the coronavirus pandemic hit those countries so that on trees had, and you know, weak health, Public Health infrastructure as and without the the systems of the cuban medics. And when you hit that pandemic highly, in the very high death rate, i mean that the result was the songstress and what happened was that the cubans have only met that in the context of a pandemic. They started to send these 10, we read a country. What was the response of the Trump Administration . And in order to undo and press teach this to you because this was an actual thing. Oh, this was, you know, literally a tale of trying to help Public Health in our country. It is the response of the trumpet ministration, just refused. He wrote human trafficking, saying that these i dont slaves and also incredible pressure on but recipient countries. So trying this crazy thousands government home accepting existence designed to thank lives of their own countries. Well, believe me, as government is changing by the brazilian ecuadorian ambassadors on the ground, the f. A. A. Thank you. Thats in the show will be back on wednesday, 27 years in the day so called us president elect. Joe biden stood up in the senate and argued for what he referred to as the biden crime bill. The bill, which critics say led to the United States having the highest incarceration rate in the world until then. You can join the underground following up on you tube, twitter, facebook, instagram, sam during the vietnam war, u. S. Forces also bomb to neighboring laos. It was a secret war. And for years the American People did not know. Until our fellow, my skin is officially the mouth carry back country per capita, human history. Millions of unexploded bombs still in danger. Lives in this Small Agricultural country. Jordyn wieber going to confirm its happening even today, kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago. Is the us making amends for that tragedy in laos wont help to the people need in that little land of mines. Theres a lot on the boombox list, actually. Big city bright lights, huge opportunities and many dangers to blow the lid to. Its also a city where up to 300000. 00 crimes are committed every year. For the last little bit more than your mosque, its filled to the reserve least one Police Officer for every 200 residents in russias capital lost on the english trip to one of the outdoor cinema was already up to most of the headlines this hour. Morse code continues to send peacekeepers the newborn. I carried back region to monitor a cease fire agreement between armenia and theres a bit of correspondence on his way to the city of panic at the russian mission. Meanwhile, armenians who have been living in areas due to be handed over to back you under the deal in their homes rather than leave them to the enemy. We had a good life here. Now we are tearing down the houses we build saw. So i know one thing for sure, i wouldnt even want my, anybody to find himself in a situation like this. It is very hard because we do not have any other choice. And despite donald trump still contesting the u. S. President ial election, joe biden is already picking his team for the white house. But his lineup could play