Think why does someone do that . Right . Thats what everybody wants. To know, and theyre liable to have achieved their quota. Those play where there was play, where because i think most people would like to think i would like to think to myself, i would never do that. But did you ever say to yourself down, why do i tell these life not why i tell these lies a poem, i started a new route in religion that exists in my really did not exist as i would just are. I just throw going to there probably exist among the worlds is just for the hurt. There are, i says of the i the new form with the model of the wood, with the model of the mire. There was a, it was a row, but just to go home or yes, my way normal. I was word. It was going to be true, or it was world which were all choices shop or were from savannah to where i am now, here she is see the court is in there. Would you bring that phone cord in somebody up . No, not only did cream bring that in, but he brought it in and drop the other. Another portion of it in the purse, right . Thats yes, thats absurd. I bet what happens here is she says he knocks her out on the Kitchen Floor and theyre like no, it doesnt work, doesnt work, renee, not good enough, didnt didnt he do it in the living room . Look at this photo, look, i want to see you. Oh yeah, the truth doesnt fit with renees no concise. No. I want to see your real place. And i think you heard that some wishful thinking, mike. I dont think there is a real police report. I mean, i just dont maybe they sort of knew there were days, confession was not so good or not true. And so they didnt really want karim because they didnt really believe that he was there. That or that it happened like that. And so if they get him in there and then they could end up with nobody one taking on a case like renes, the danger is always the case, evidence or other crime scene evidence has not been preserved. If theres no crime scene evidence, or case evidence, then theres nothing to d. N. A. Test. And if theres no d. N. A. To test, its extremely hard to prove that your client is innocent. Thats when they are you hearing in renes piece, it was a very bloody crime scene. The murder weapon was never found, but there was a purse that had a bloody fingerprint in it, and there was a drawer in the bedroom with a bloody fingerprint on it. The d. N. A. Tested some things, but not those. And the only d. N. A. Found at the crime scene was the victims and i think out of 41 pieces of evidence, they tested 7 for d. N. A. And so you know, theyre in trouble right at trial because you cant get convicted on your own confession alone. So they go and they try to round up, jailhouse snitches, but only one worked so it was her confession, and a jailhouse snitch, which is so common in false confession cases and you have the confession and then the extra evidence because theres no physical evidence corroboration to the confession snitch no, by giving them no particular. Oh oh ok. Do you mind if i said this is all good. Thats ok. You know i dont have the street or the bottle to try and do you remember interacting with any of the Police Officers back then . This is a student was name was very, it is my impression looking back that thank you all here. Shes guilty. Shes guilty. And eagle, make sure you know you can sometimes it was a bloody crime. So now we know i was my d. N. A. So somebody else to be right. How was one of the things thats one of the things that we hope to be able to do is retest. The d. N. A. Theres knowledge, she has no chance some cases we get and we look at them. And we, even if we believe the person is innocent, we can say, well, i mean, theres just for a variety of reasons, nothing we can do. Theres something we can do here, but not a lot of people get exonerated real solutions. Really, others look, you know, the below average and here is this work out i just want to talk to you because i know helping renee trying to get her out. Can we come by . What dr. Just talked to me think is so much we need to ask the most important thing to so how she was to what her interactions with the police were with andrea. You know, in our lives we really and he didnt have a car with a promise you anything like where youre going to get out and let me out here when you write great, i want to get out and so you actually did get out. Thank you. We really appreciate it. Ok, so thats good. Thats helpful. Lets talk about lorenzo montoya. 3 years on 1 pm. Oh, time watching right now is what you want to hear long really didnt you know, there were dan burton being interviewed lorenzo more and more to the ends of montoya was arrested in the year 2000 and accused of a murder of a young schoolteacher in denver. Hes 14 years old friends when this happened, and he is tiny, like maybe 110 pounds, very young, no one he killed or the overlap between meltzer and lorenzo is a mouser. They tell him theres these videotapes that show him abusing children, which there arent in lorenzos. They actually go as far as to have him take his shoes off and they do this whole charade where this very angry cop comes back in with the shoe and says, well, im a shoe print expert and your shoe. The print at the crime scene was untrue. Youd be sent away to get up there as interest. You can pull the day. You are not rest until we are. It is going to happen. Weve got one window g. R. Coming down. We are there. So you the 3rd are there, knows where the others are until you are there. Even if you have no idea where you bury your friends with a lot of friends every day. If you were there, were to find out. Thats interesting. He didnt say we had your blood, we had your saliva. He said we have that to be tested. Basically, right. There is a body the moment a hot political issue. Well in the united states, police a, permitted to lie about evidence and say right out of that, we have a lot of fast that is a shocking discovery to most people. Most western countries dont permit it. The u. S. Supreme Court Permits it. So consequently you have 2 detectives making it seem as if we have independent evidence. They sometimes will get very specific about what that evidence is. Tell yes, that you are involved in something. Theyve already started that same thing process. And the mother already does believe it was a pandemic knows, you know, borders and is blind to nationalities has emerged with the facts in the whole world needs to be judged as commentary prices. We can do better, we should be everyone is contributing way. But we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. The challenges created, the response has been massive. So many good people are helping us. It makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. Thanks guys or financial survival. When customers go buy your additional didnt help well, reduce some lower thats undercutting, but whats good for market is not good for the global economy. Xeloda see both of you. Dead already disabled great isnt it . Is it true that the brain issues that you are surely that even better to savor it for you . Did you mean mistake . So he just introduced the word mistake. Hes about to develop this theme that enables lorenzo to admit some degree of involvement while minimizing his own role. Its part of a package of techniques that in which you communicate to is suspect that i think youre a good person. I understand what youve been through. I sympathize with what youve been through. Often you hear normalising statements like, you know water. If i were in your situation, i would have done the same thing. And all, by the way, i dont think you intended to do this. I think it was an accident or maybe your friends put you up to it, or maybe you were provoked me to feel that it was red zone. I dont do that. I havent done it. I did want to jack the car into one that did the communication moves in one direction. It is designed to leave the person the suspect. Think the police dont think this is such a big deal and therefore be treated with leniency. Ok, so one of my choices, either i can be the accomplice who refuses to speak, or i can admit to what they want me to admit to, given all of the minimisation that theyve given me and enjoy the benefit of that. Who are going to go . You know, how do you presume theyre going to do that big look at how much they have communicated already. He knows so much about this crime that whether he was there or had anything to do with it or not, he now knows enough about it to give you a description. So why are you here . Were here at sleaze house through the wrestle, you systems in the computer, and neither g. R. Who kicked you in the head. Of course, the building a story for him to tell or is it, you know, a great ridge those shoes wrote part of the dreaded shoes. Brazill position. Your jaw is just right. Hes now being set up so that when hes ready to give a statement, he knows exactly what that statement that he was kicked in. The head shoe dragging her through the blood. Hes got it all. So later a judge and a jury is going to watch the final confession and theyre going to be so impressed and unable to look past that because they keep on asking themselves what happened in all those things if he was in there, right . Stare, me down. Oh, you made that up. I just want your prior 5 minutes. You wake up, you know, youre not going home tonight. I can guarantee you that. And they did not put in a Juvenile Hall for her, which would be boys, you know, you talk now or say goodbye to your mom. Its pretty clear and your cousin and your sister and your girlfriend and your life. Is you ready to what kim and in this person do the situation anything i guess you could hold out rank for everyone. You just fall down doesnt everybody have a breaking point . So why must he was in prison for 14 years. So he got out at 28, he was in solitary confinement for 4 years because when he goes into a grown up prison, hes 14 and he cant be in with the general population. So he goes to solitary confinement for 4 years for 14 to 18. Lorenzo was exonerated, and we have a civil rights too pending for him. And the opposition are, you know, theyre, theyre moving to have the case dismissed based on qualified immunity for the police. And if youre being interrogated, youre not being interrogated because theyre just looking for information youre being interrogated because they want you to confess. So today we have a 1st on wrongful conviction, which is that we have a retired n. Y. P. D. Homicide detective, among other things, current private investigator. Im pleased to introduce you j. Saltpeter. Welcome. Thank you very much and thank you for having me. So how the hell are we going to get this fixed a we believe a remedy seems like a long shot to me its going to take forever. Well, the beginning is basically that all, you know, all interrogations are video and audiotapes. And i think that would stop at least 75 percent of these fools confessions, i dont know how youre going to get away with it. Im a bit of criminal Justice System as a store looking at prosecutors. Believe me, you would false confessions faster with making noise that make prosecutor culpable. I mean thats the frustration with the civil rights work is that the prosecutors are always absolutely immune. It doesnt matter what they did, they could have gotten right and punched the kid in the face and they would, we cannot get any liability. And of course, police are allowed to use trickery. And i know every defense attorney in the world is against that. So we talked about how out of these 4 cases, you know, corey and melts and lorenzo have all been exonerated by rene. You know, her case remains active and shes been in prison now for 20 years. And her son grew up without a mom. She, you know, he has, shes grandkids now that shes never met other than on a phone through glass. She said to heart attacks while shes been in prison and its probably not getting the right medical treatment for that. You know, were just hoping that you know, time could be on our side and we can get her out sooner rather than later. But i mean, she is a, a life thats wasted. Good morning. How are you . Ok, how is your heart out having a half hour track. A very far i know have you done to play some together . Its ok. I understand some difficulty and i know that its taking a lot of time, but we dont want to mess it up. Rene, we all are only going to get one shot at this. So just hang in there and promise you there will be an end and i hope its a good one, but there wont be an end develop causes and this is the disease newsmen. They are mares and do do to them seem do gooders and those who knew the system is missing, the biggest hoax turns into will not do this thing. So you do believe you do that got him close to us, he can anyway blame himself for i think so. Controlling and 1st thing they all do with it. My own observations from talking to wrongfully convicted people is those who were wrongfully convicted by confession are not doing as well. The stigma they attach to themselves. They feel weak natl, stupid. They dont understand what happened, how to come down to themselves. And even when the convictions overturned, if the reason they were convicted was a confession, as opposed to something else, the stigma attached to the state, even after they were exonerated, right . People are not quite 100 percent. Sure, i get the confession is so powerful that even therefore its supposed to evaporate. So corey, today is hes living well, right. He got a huge settlement, but it doesnt take away those demons in his head. You know, hes, he was in from 16 to almost 30. So what are you now when you come out . Hes never going to have the mental peace and rest that you know, you and i can probably accomplish sometimes. But if he has lost his whole family, theres no relationship with them really. And thats something that then why p. B. In the city in the prosecutors took away from him, right . That money cant replace combatants in society. You dont. You dont know how to do it in sheri, you dont know what to do or so it is sort of, your brain will be the morning star over here. Start to join the long journey. Maybe if im going to stand in the house, you know, from wonder being free it really is. A problem that, you know is systemic. Its a problem that victimizes. A lot of people, you have the, the person who falls in compresses whose life is ruined. You have their family whose lives are ruined. You have the victim. Theyre still alive and the victims family who think theyre getting justice, but theyre not. And then you have multiple other problems that come from this main one being that by definition, when we walk up the wrong guy, we stop looking for the right guy. Its really a, its a, its a tremendous challenge. I think its a cultural problem. We need a whole societal education about this. Our criminal Justice System is based on the premise that its better for 10 guilty. People to go free than one innocent person to go to prison. Right. I mean, that is a fundamental concept of the american Justice System, but i think that the lying is one of the main things that they are somebody as well. I just guess the courts dont get it. Every story will false confessions, not just a story that gets into question, why in gods name did an innocent person confess to a crime. He or she didnt commit . Its a 2nd story. And 2nd story line is how come the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, the appeals all mr. Mir is now able to research actual cases, laboratory studies, field studies, and 100 plus years of basics. Like all, she tells you why the people about everything to know why the people about reality. You can change their perceptions and change their memories. Or you can change just about every aspect of the called function of the british Human Progress forward is pretty much what you you know, those will sleep with worse off so sure. But i choose to believe it was you are sure to keep that quote. I carry or it it doesnt actually matter vegetable wouldve been murdered by you. Going to go with us because all of this going to just about because those dont get me anyway was in the vehicle, is with the it seems all seat was used by his emotions to get some of what is in your speech. Cut off and use the of the 20th century was to enter a revolution. The Great Depression and world was the 21st century of mental illness. Those arent my words. Thats what therapists and psychiatrists tell us. The only question is, should we accept it as a fact . Yes or no. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy. Let it be an arms race. Very Dramatic Development only personally. I dont see how it will be ready to sit down and talk. Drawls help sanctions against french and german oficial to move those countries. Russias foreign minister suggests the activist may have already we have every reason to believe that what happened to him in terms of Chemical Warfare agents getting into his body could have happened in germany on the plane in which she was flown to the charity hospital. Also ahead on the program