Because youre really into it, you leave that up. I just stand there watching. 5 minutes. Youre not going home. I can guarantee they wont come back to wrongful conviction. What you say today, were going to be doing a deep dive into an issue that is fascinating exhibits to our founding, which is the phenomenon of false confessions. And my guest today is going to be jane fisher already also was currently working on 4 cases involving false confessions and each is fascinating its own way. So jane, while some full confession happened to me here, and jane is an attorney who is an expert on false confessions. And so jane, how did you get into this work . I was a public defender in manhattan here in new york city for about 3 years. And we saw a lot of police misconduct, you know, we were doing arraignments up until 1 am in the morning and you see people beat up or, you know, people whose cases get dismissed, who get no compensation. So my husband and i left the Legal Aid Society with the hopes of doing civil rights work. My name is old castle. Im a distinguished professor of psychology at John Jay College of criminal justice. Once a false confession is taken, the case is closed, nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that is a problem with all of this. Is that the or tactics that can be used to get innocent people. And i dont just mean vulnerable, innocent people, i mean, people who are sitting around in this room to confess to crimes. They didnt commit. Anytime you do an exoneration case where theres been a false confession, its like trying to write a tryst. Everybodys already against you. The persons been convicted by a jury. The judge thinks hes guilty. The jury thinks hes guilty. Now you have to convince everybody that theyre wrong. So a case that youre deeply invested in is a case of an alien shia who has been in prison for 20 years. Renee lynch was a case we took about 2 and a half now maybe 3 years ago now. And she was accused and convicted of killing her landlord in buffalo, new york in 1900. And its also obviously a false confession cases. The police are going crazy and they cant solve it 18 months go by. And renees connection to the victim was that it was her landlord. And so they are start looking into renee, who at the time was heavily addicted to drugs crack cocaine. And because she gets arrested for Something Else and they start interrogating her. And she confesses to killing her landlord with this guy karim. So she says, kareem, and i went to my landlords house, we were going to rob her. The robbery goes bad, and karim stabs her. So if shes a good century, it can make it a felony, murder being present during the commission, a crime, and somebody gets killed. We started sort of doing, you know, just regular google searches on the players names and detectives and everything in this t. V. Show. Women behind bars comes up and theyve done an episode or news case where they got in the, in the prison and interviewed her. And then interviewed this joseph was the cop on the case, the way her body when she decided to go, you just saw, it was time to go in truth. I believe her confession is kind of nonsense. Theres inconsistency between the physical evidence and what she says. And during the show, he says, well, i mean we knew that Corinne Walker was in florida at the time of our crime karim was of i guess they knew Kareem Walker was in florida at the time the crime. Then renes confession cant possibly be true because shes confessing to going to rob the landlord with kareem. And the defense been able to put that on her confession would have made no sense that the defense was never told. The whole thing is so full of holes and so bogus. I cant put my finger out and say like, you know, this is the thing, but i think if we dug in it, we could find that thing that could get her out because its all, its just all of it. So its messed up. How do they record this confession and didnt know, i mean, did they make, you know, they typed it up and then read it to her and made her sign it. So there is a type of confession is the only version of the confession. Theres no like original notes they have or something that we have to wonder about. She says details about the crime scene because they showed her photos of it that you know how the body was lying. Be shown her, those photos of some kind of new evidence. Didnt exist at the time of the trial or didnt know, didnt exist at the time a tro, but it wasnt known right now wasnt presented during the trial. And then we have to show that if it had been, could have been a different outcome. I think we can, but its going to be hard. Our goal is of course, to get renee out of prison, but it can take a really long time. Sometimes many years. And one of the 1st things we do in cases like this is to comb through the confession and find all the consistencies. To clearly show that the confessions theres a cream walker drove me to 90 longmeadow m. Hearse. The plan was, i was going to go into the front door and karim was going to come up the back door. He was going to tie her up with a piece of white extension cord that he brought with him at babson time, kareem hit louise in the side of the face, and louise fell to the floor and kind of went out. If that happened, he would be standing punching her here, right. On creams head here in the face. He knocked the wig away, landed on the floor in the kitchen kitchen. He tried to tie louise up with the plastic already had. Then curie comes from behind louise. He stabbed her at least twice. However, we know its 8 times louise fell to the floor. Again. It was a large amount of blood on the floor next to her body. So the only thing she gets right is that the way gets knocked off. That theres a plastic cord involved in this case. Thats correct. And the phone cord is where the extra d. N. A. Is. Ringback im missin the its gene fisher by rios and renee lynchs attorney. I have a call with her this morning. Oh, good things. How i how i live. Oh, why . I, i i, i oh, i know its hard. I went to trial. She testified, been very incoherent. Lee, she was high during the trial was she was not a good witness for her. So she recanted right away afterwards. And her confession is that is it was a coerced. When i talked about this this, i would never say contests when people say ive been talking about this for 30 years, and thats the 1st thing. Everybody says, but it wouldnt happen today. Its not one time the person that gives a false confession. We are all under the circumstance of interrogation. We are all trained detectives. Ive spoken to who say i can get anybody to press today. And many of them will boast that they have a 95 percent confession rate and see a lesser of a lesser near perfect. And identifying the perpetrator that is every suspect you identify is the perpetrator, right . If youve got a confession you produce or a false confessions, when i talk to her about it, she explains to me, i was so shocked that they convicted me. She said, because there was no evidence of a confession so powerful it can stand alone. So heres the jury. On the one hand, theyve got the confessions of a woman and they go to confession strip. The d. N. A. Changes. Everything is sometimes not like in the final product of a confession to a hollywood production. It is scripted by the Police Theory of the case. It is rehearsed and action camera ready to go. And thats what the jury sees. They dont see the whole production. They just see the final. I dont see how the judge or jury can look past the false confession. If they dont see the presence. And we have a number of documented cases in which the person who falsely confessed actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior, which is a whole nother level of insanity. And some of them believe it for a long time afterwards. And i think you see here in the melted thompson case we had, he was a danish inturn who came he was a danish, he was a College Student studying to become, a teacher. And he came and interned at i. P. S. , which is really, you know, like a 20000. 00, a year preschool up by the u. N. And it was a code teacher who accuses me of molesting all the kids in the class. And hes on the cover of the daily news. They take his focus, his facebook profile pictures, him with his niece on his shoulders. So they put that on the cover of the daily news and write sex monster. And they go arrest him in the morning and bring him into the station and they have a female cop interrogate him. She tells him, well, you know, we have video of you molesting these kids, which they had videos, but hes not molesting anybody. So they had this woman who accused him and taken videos of him in the classroom, interacting normally with children. And so either the cops had watched it or they had watched it and were blatantly lying to him, but there was no video of him molesting kids, but he hears that right. And he thinks holy, well, if im on video, i must have done it right. They let him continue to believe this lie that hes caught red handed on tape molesting these kids. And i think that, that, you know, he started, you could tell through the hole when they finally are recording him. Hes doubting himself. You know, hes, hes wondering, did i do this elderly, forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people must obey the orders given it by human beings, except were such orders that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. We should be very careful about Artificial Intelligence at the point of use. The great trust, our government, shia areas with Artificial Intelligence will summon, the demon must protect its own existence as a clue. This is a story of women. Women with troubled histories and complex court cases. You know, some of us daily lives out there where nat is the person that the cheesiness of the day are considered the most dangerous of criminals. Shes in a still probably off 23 hours of the day. Tell me that its not enough punishment. World of women on death row on our team. Mr. Thompson. Can you tell me why . Yes. Im here because in order for inappropriate behavior, it was ok. So why dont you tell me privately and how this started . What happened . You know what you know . Well, if i can feel what i can remember, just had to go down just a few moments about it and then proceed in the person in the editing and its a place and place in her own mind. Kinsler in my shorts you know, short of Going Forward in that or question where youre going. And so what, when you think of your pleasure at one time that the central of it would have to be i dont know, you know, im a member of this leg of it. If you read out the statement i did, thats your handwriting. And it just waiting over briefly doesnt look like its been changed in any way. And thats your signature. Because youre at this hour earlier today, youre going to show the camera. I dont even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to you. I think most people would think that if i am speaking to a police officer, hes telling me the truth. But now to times, i mean in denmark, its illegal for the police to lie to you. So he really, i think, was really says extra susceptible to Something Like that. It took us filing the civil rights suit to even get access to these tapes. The District Attorney wouldnt give it to us when the criminal case was pending. We asked the court, we moved for a court order to get it. The judge just wouldnt give it to us. But they sat on these tapes for 8 months. He had this case hanging over his head and they knew that there was nothing in the tapes. Right. There was the only evidence there was yes, luckily mel to never got convicted right. We were able to stop it before that happened. But it took, i mean, it almost killed him there Sexual Abuse Involving very Young Children were brought to the attention of the District Attorneys office. To thoroughly investigate and involved in the children. Particularly in this instance we use for preschool. And one more thing to dismiss this case after you have gathered in our tent that we have to have you know, have you ever seen anybody use like a piece of a foam court to prop up the waves or put it just the way forward to i dont know if i have a case where there is a piece of foam cord found inside of the blade on your head to give the league a little too for a little while, but its weeks if they are flat. Because if there is some clue feed, then the hair is not like its like just like a like 3 to 4 inches of phone cord case were trying to get permission to test all the old evidence for d. N. A. But to do that, we have to collect as much information about her innocence as we possibly can. And go back and interview all the witnesses documents, go back to the crime scene. I keep coming back to this thing that the cops knew. He was in florida and kept going with the story that they did together. Like why, if they know hes in florida, why dont they like your lives . Youre lying to us because hes in, we know hes in florida. Why dont they are confronted by hearsay . That how can they be permitted to go forward with a series of a case that they know is not true. Name a trial basically match or as you say, oh, thats why thats as trickery. And the only way to convict somebody of this was to do it that way. Yes, it just makes me so jaded and really disgusted with the District Attorneys offices. And i feel like, you know, the, you know, theres supposed to be at the top of the chain right there. Its supposed to be the ones making sure the cops made mistakes or people below the cops made mistakes. Then theyre the ones who are responsible for fixing it. Why not do d. N. A. Testing . Think why not me . Were all, were not infallible. We can all make mistakes. Why not check . I mean, her names going to be in prison for the rest of her life. Why not just check . You know, they can never answer that question. So you just end up in court with, you know, them opposing your motions for d. N. A. Testing and unending ability gating instead of working together. In renes case, its especially frustrating because, i mean they certainly believe that this was done. Not the stabbing was not done by her. Right. So there is this a, i mean, theyre basically admitting that they have a cold case and theres a murder out there. And they still dont want to do it. You know, its did 2 people either 2 people or somebody other than renee, committed that crime. And that person is out and about, and d. N. A. Contesting could show who they are, but theyre still posing as am you know, the central park jogger case was my 1st interaction with confessions our firm represented corey wise on his civil rights case way to start, i mean youre diving right into the bed there. You know, the circumstances that play in that case were huge amount of pressure on the police and the authorities to make arrests and make them step forward. 7 years in prison. With one of the most notorious crimes in the history of new york city, it was a crime in which a woman who was a wealthy Upper East Side investment banker was out jogging and was dragged into the woods and central park and almost beaten to death. And there was front page news every day, everywhere, and they are out to get arrests and they got him when you get to the false confessions, in that case, it was a classic, you know, mismatch. They were totally overmatched, underrepresented, if represented at all. I dont know what they could, their core even have anyone in the room without his consent is 16. So he was considered an adult, sadly. And so his mom was not allowed in there and they, you know, had, given the lawyers, they all waived their miranda rights rights. Where you live, christine says that its this is very, very serious in this neighborhood. We dont know if theyre going to waste any sap. We do say after seeing their stages and surely you can see where this point is. It is hard for people to understand how this can help produce a confession, something they didnt too. And there really is a complicated set of stories. There is no one reason you know, corey wise confessed to get out of this bad situation. He was under pressure from many, many hours. He was likely be told that others were giving stories and that to, to cooperate in order to go home. And it is very telling in the central park 5 case that every one of them, every one of the boys and every one of the parents who were present were surprised. The boys were arrested after their statements. Every one of them i was going home, right . Well, you know what, that sounds crazy right here. Thought you were gone or confess to a rape and go home. Right. But you know that one false confessors were interviewed afterward and theyve been exonerated. And the 1st question, everybody wants those, i dont understand why dont you confront the most typical response . Because i want to go home. Innocent people often say afterwards, you know, i was tired, i was so stressed, i figured let me sign this confession. Itll all work itself out. In the end. The, detectives often say, you know, we have d. N. A. , were going to send these things that claiming they have lost is a way to scare the criminal into submission. It may be right. But if the person youre talking to is not the criminal but an innocent person, then the law becomes a promise of future exoneration. Makes it easier to confess, right . Were going to do some tests. Were going to take blood samples from a lot of different people. The i just want to know that if we do that, we will probably get an order to take a sample from you. And then well compare it to tests or this area because youre in a position now where you know that theres going to be a match day and you better off. Tell us about it now or the stairs instead of saying something thats natural, part of the story. One of the things i think they made you say was that you cut her on the legs. Where did you, how did you come up with that . I dont know came from no, i dont know. Made it up. I dont know. It came from. I dont know. Welcome to maximize their financial survival guide. Looking forward to the down. Yanks, this is what happens to pensions in britain. Dont let this happen. Watch kaiser report you know, those will soup wolf who wish to leave your w. Lover who was your short i. Q. On board. It doesnt actually matter the age to put a gun. You got to go with us because all of those who knew those stories could be game we will see in the, in the interviews with the weve seen the movies use, but its the most severe some of footage in your speech. Come on and use the in the 20th century was doing in the year of revolution, the Great Depression and world war the 21st century, real mental illness, those arent my words. Thats what surfaced. Some psychiatry was the only christian except it is a fact use to vote, recount is ordered in the us state of georgia. As wrangling over the president ial election goes on. Trial continues to claim joe biden stall, victory, riot police fired tear gas in the armenian careful as crowds accuse the government to have picture leading to azerbaijan by signing a peace deal. But the armenian Prime Minister claims, without the truth, most of the disputed region would have been lots of russian from a virus vaccine prepared to start mass distribution after advanced trials point to be