But its better than anywhere else according to the Prime Minister i disagree and i think you know if that was the case he would not also had a letter to m. P. s from serco just on the 14th of october outlining you know and trying to miss past some of the missed what they perceive to be misconceptions and you know theyre claiming that they you know they its a just to triumph to have had to now feel 500 and the dissent is its all good having 500 perma test and test and that is welcome but if theyre not producing enough tests and theyre needed then its not sufficient to to meet the demand you know around you they sort of claim that 1600000. 00 of the 5. 00 militaries to divid have been done since the 24th of march again it just is not there what i think across some of the regions and particularly in london where the demand is probably higher it just hasnt been the case in a. Think you know a lot of people are still coming up without an appointment to get tested because the system is just not working properly well that you are being put in charge of it says it was never any Silver Bullet anyway the man just labor mayor and the burnham is demanding exact evidence for the latest tier one tier 2 system of coronavirus that we have here in britain is there a problem generally of Scientific Evidence i dont independent sage so theres no Scientific Evidence for some of the terror system itself ive been fighting the dependance age quite quite close to it i do think that some of the recommendations have been made for examples of you know emergency measures to try and tackle the virus you know over a 2 to me co 4 week period could really change things around one of the problems i think has been that i dont think the government has been transparent enough with their data for independence age even to make recommendations for even city may as you mentioned to be able to you know make calls that are relevant to their region and that back of transparency that lack of openness has been that the scrutiny kaante the same as well so you know we have questions on the temp in confusion and why thats a measure they seem to be effective but we can also see all of the data and the reasoning behind the measures being shared with us then its also a much more harder to actually challenge the government on on those measures ok well your leader didnt vote against it explicitly you you may have similarly while the grow virus stuff is going on there all sorts of important Foreign Policy issues that are being debated in the house what did you make it may not even be Foreign Policy what do you make of this its been called a method of immunizing historic war crimes by u. K. Troops in iraq and in afghanistan maybe an island just explain what these overseas operations bill is i mean the overseas operations bill which has been proposed by the government is essentially to allow for the prosecution. Of military brass that which you know relate to crimes abroad proceedings of from 5 years ago or anything before 5 years ago to not be able to be brought you know in front of the courts for prosecution for judgment and i think you know if you look at the last 20 years when we know how much of you know the world has changed after 911 how much the world changed after the iraq war we are living in a different and runs it is really really important and it was your party that was that led this country to the iraq war why it is the leader of your labor party saying actually what i want is the labor position on the immunizing of british ships of historical grahams well i think i mean i voted against the bill absent reading and i think its really important to get on a firm footing and position on a bill and to do so at 2nd reading and not to leave it of the door open for amendments to be made just at 3rd reading because i think that we did sends a weak signal in terms of our opposition to such a bill being passed and i couldnt possibly say you know what might be to please in terms of the human rights impact of you know the the bill which is immense you know we are all looking at a bill which does in fact you know actually impact upon the human rights Civil Liberties of military personnel who should have at any point i think in time but thats 10 years down the line all 20 of them not be able to bring you know cases to the ministry of justice because thats the only way in fact justice can actually be achieved we know there are numerous cases where human rights abuses have taken place in iraq which have still not been brought in from to any national or International Court as you know the governments position is that there are too many vexatious claims and your leader as a mean clearly opposing it up till this 3rd reading that you speak of but more worryingly arguably and this is made headlines all around the world the government has. I mean it sounds unbelievable seems to be trying to immunize the Security Services in britain m i 5 and i 6 from being able to rape torture and murder people whoa whoa. What made so many of you back benches in Parliament Vote against it and sick as adama refused to vote against it the me was actually the way in which the scope of crimes that could be committed are so wide and how you know thats thats called being so hard means that crimes can be incited so an agent estate agent you know a covert operative can actually go inside a crime commit rape or murder. As a way of actually logically apparently being able to tackle a crime in the 1st place and the logic that you know in order to tackle crime in order to tackle terrorism we also need to may be allowed to stay operatives to commit maybe terrorism or murder or to china sea ice is actually you know on a moral point i think you know it should not be something that we should a tool support we know that we need kobo protests to stop Child Sexual Exploitation for example you know these are serious matters we in which the government needs to actually have covert operatives on the take. But what we dont need i dont think is to have for example covert operatives being in relationships with women you know having children with them. And not that that has ever really knowing that thats actually whats happening that theyre actually being spied on and i think they really do need to be safeguards and the argument that ive heard in the east in the last 2 weeks that the human rights act provides a safeguard and provides a limitation on this statute is a i think completely misguided the human rights act does not allow for prosecutions to be able to be brought against individuals or even public bodies for that matter nobody has been ever prosecuted on the human rights act because its not possible under the human rights act to prosecute. And therefore the government sort of outlining that i think is really misguiding the public the edo and and the human rights act in fact is actually under review by this government even if the repetitions it wouldnt look possible in the future anyway but that suggest amo bills themselves as a human rights lawyer published front benches with that i think they had to resign over this why why is he so confident that abstaining is the best route i mean i dont know disease reported on duty is he opposed to it i dont even know how many think there were a lot or whether there were lots of conversations about this and and you know certainly i think a number of good amendments were tabled by the front bench of the Neighbor Party to this then you know looking at the ways in which young people for example shouldnt be you know made part of the cove operate open operations so you know putting certain amendments through is a positive thing by my party by do still think that the main issue here is is the scope is is there a wide range of crimes that could be committed them in the Food Standards Agency for example i mean a b so makes you think why would the Food Standards Agency need to be given powers the government is talking about you know this happening all in terms of the economic well being if you look at for example whats happened in the last 2 decades we we no way we are faced with a Climate Emergency and you know do we need Food Standards Agency to be given powers to by an activist for example that you know oral history very very you know keen to actually scrutinize the work of the government in terms of agriculture and food and you know we know that you know we definitely i think many of us to feel that this is a direct attack by the government on you know organized labor organized. Trade Union Activity which is so vital for our democracy is the right to strike the right to protest extinction rabbani. And you know that their work in terms of holding the government to account on the climate is is so important for that to be able to flourish in a democracy but this bill actually puts all of that risk and just finally i mean is trafalgar day your leader has been going to have his eyes the flag patriotism black lives matter seems a fizzle that arguably in this country after all the stature debate how important do you think in terms of education we need to know about britains historical imperial record and i think there are certainly lots of petitions are currently being put forward the government and im sitting on a committee soon and jointly with Education Committee of which were a member to actually for example consider the publics demands around the black history curriculum and start to actually address a colonial history and this is one step in way in which to do that i dont think it goes far enough and as you say you know there is a bit of fizzling out i think from from what happened earlier in the year with the black clouds much of protests is also not good enough i think to to talk about patriotism without actually you know i can origin how damaging those messages are for you know black and minority ethnic communities you know we dont need to prove our loyalty to britain when we need party unity government to actually you know put number one of the on the agenda for example the pandemic and how its you know leading to so many black lives. Being lost how many of that manage to me tease us often as a result of the pan pandemic we still have the highest number of excess deaths being experienced in one or 2 meetings and those things are really really vital when you try to you know this is this is an earthquake in a lot of ways you know that this in terms of whats happened in the last few months the pandemic is really brought to light how you know racism is so imbedded in our institutions and and in our policies and thats thats what maybe needs to happen is look good not just to talk about the curriculum and diversify we need to actually seriously address the fact that people are dying in this country as a result of policies that are embedded in racist narratives as all of a a thank you. Thank you after the right after alleged washington failure to this troy democracy in libya why is trump secretary of state pompei oh no calling for elections in haiti on trafalgar day when slavery linked to raise your nelson was killed off the coast of spain we investigate the legacy of one of the leaders of the worlds 1st successful slave revolt haitis 2 so move a tour of the socalled jacobin blacks because all the civil coming overbought through of going underground. Americans love. This was a fundamental part of how our Political Leadership and our country a large understood the bargain you get a hope and then you know rebel right as the things you dont revolt if you have a stake in the system. Be really interesting to dial it back and think about the longer deeper history housings men in the United States not just that question of the American Dream but the bigger question if you dream is for. Geysers financial survival. When customers go by. There now well reduce some lower. Thats undercutting but whats good for the market its not good for the global economy. Welcome back well even while the usa looks to joe morris tennessee president ial debate donald trump secretary of state might bump a 0 has been busy calling on the caribbean nation of haiti to hold elections critics accuse him of falling into line with washingtons repeated attempts under george w. Bush and barack obama to destabilize the once richest country in the western hemisphere if true then trump is simply following the example set by us president Woodrow Wilson who imposed racist laws in haiti to raise the victory set by 2 son of a tour when he inspired the 1st successful slave rebellion in Human History the historic flashpoint occurred during the time of nelson commemorated today in britain is trafalgar day dr Sudhir Hauser acing author of black spot because the epic life of 2 son of a tour joins me now from oxford in the u. K. So their welcome to going underground so it was the richest country in the western hemisphere the 1st successful slave revolt its been in the news because kanye west has been tweeting from lugo chavez and ports in nattie who was to say to have a tour. So to say was the son of and slaved parents who were brought forcibly to haiti in the 1st half of the edge in century or rather brought to stand a man got a less than the richest french colony he grew up on a plantation in the north of the colony and eventually his talents less such that he was brought to the attention of the plantation araki and he became effectively the assistant of the manager of the plant as and he lived for the 1st 50 years of his life until d the outbreak of the revolution enslaved to 50 year olds watching this program can take heart that they can become revolutionaries of 50 its never too late exactly and then when the revolution broke out in 1791 immediately became one of its leaders and rapidly established himself as the. Leader of the home and slave peoples and then he has this meteoric rise becomes a general in the French Republic and on the fights the british the spaniards and later on even the french kicks them out of sodomizing how damage to the french revolution a 2nd but you know im going to ask you because the history textbooks i have at school said pitt the younger was a great reformer here in britain with wilberforce an antislavery you say to sail of a tour or basically. Commanded an army the kill 15000. 00 british troops on haiti what were the british during the. Well thats a very good question and its one that is rather an understudy in in britain but one thing that we know now is that a soon as slavery was abolished in sandman in 70 in 93 and then by the french and 17 months before the british who had a lot of interests in the caribbean region intervened militarily in sand in order to try and help restore slick so between 709479 there is a British Occupation of odds of saddam and 2 son has to fight and he fights them and eventually serves them out of the house to another misinformation about bit the bit the younger then what about the american independence leaders as you said rob spear declares the end of slavery in paris and 7094 any help from the United States the americans are divided because theyre on the one hand they know that they have slavery in their own country and the American Revolution as you know does not take any Decisive Action against slavery at the same time some of the leaders of the American Revolution particularly john had is very sympathetic towards the republican experiment in hate but others like jefferson for example talked of the haitians as cannibals so you have some leaders of the American Revolution particularly the ones who were particularly close to slave interests like jefferson were very hostile to what sounded like and towards hate will donald trump wont be pulling him down any statues of jefferson ill tell you that i made a joke about revolutionaries in their fiftys but given the brutality of slavery a half of 2 sons contemporaries may have died from the plantation he was it was born in prematurely and this you attribute to frances brutal code no war tell us a little bit about that. So the code no was supposed to be an attempt by the royal authorities and it was promulgated in the late seventys. And in the late 17th century an attempt to regulate slavery so that the most extreme forms of barbaric cruelty towards slaves were somehow codify according to the cardinal law slaves belong to that lost of slaves had no civil Political Rights and indeed a child born of a slave became the property of his austin so the cardinal law is really a document which defectively. Codifies. The system of slavery and do you think to size a tragic figure in that he failed to declare independence he may have led the worlds 1st slave revolt successful slave revolt but not declaring full independence for france was his downfall. Well thats how it actually played out but i think that his strategy was the right one of because his strategy was based on the hope that the french would understand what the best way for a place like sound amount of iran led by french i mean even napoleon in the counter revolution against the revolution even napoleon because lets not forget and i mention this in the book napoleon when hes defeated and has time to think about his past actions that sent Helena Napoleon regrets the action that he took against him something that you and he says and i quote almost that i should have made end of i stroll and it was the french miscalculated that unfolds no we dont want this well just send a few 1000 troops out and well conquer the albums again well that proved to be a very costly mistake for the french to aside from all this diplomatic pragmatism he was not militarily trained and yet you think maybe some commanders today use guerrilla tactics inspired by tucson of a tour in wars against imperialism yes well i think one of the many remarkable things about him and hes not even celebrated for that reason is that the haitian revolution resentenced suck on really the pioneers of what we call in the modern age guerrilla warfare we historians normally attribute of the term to the spanish insistence to not only in the early 19th century in the war as you know it but actually all these tactics and you have to say and the haitian revolutionaries during the seventys and. So other revolutionaries of that hemisphere che guevara killed by washington backed interest we know about the some of the the great revolutionaries of the 20th century and really others about it out as tucson of a door and his death and why. Well he was captured treacherously by the french in 82 basically the french and saved and. Theres a campaign that last several months a military campaign which is basically 4 to a stalemate so to say as a plan which is to basically wait for the yellow fever to take and decimate the Occupying Forces this is exactly what happened to the british a few years earlier but for that plan to be put into place he needs a bit of a breathing so he negotiates this truce with the french the french of course of no intention of honoring it so they capture him treacherously and exile him to a 4 in the mountains and for all and he dies in a year later in april edging a story you dont think the real hero is desailly in one of his commanders who seem to react to all these developments by wiping out the white population and truly greeting an independent haiti as opposed to the pragmatism of 2000 over 2. Thats an absolutely fair question and indeed its a its a its a debate that is still very very much ongoing in haiti today when you talk to haitians often they divide between those who are supporters of tucson and supporters and. Irrespective of the differences between the 2 men i would regard as strategies as complementary rather than. Distinct from each other because lets not forget that when the french invaded. 2 the 1st interaction and the 1st resistance and indeed all the tactics of with and successfully pursued by the haitians were 0. 02 tactics he is the one who determines against courts to earth policy that was and followed by deciding and is less tandems what is different and this i will admit is their long term vision of what and in. The sand among Political Community should look like to some believed that they should retain some sort of connection with the french that was not a view that was shared by descent and you understand why after after the invasion well it is now the poorest country in the in the western hemisphere dogged by scandals after the Obama Administration the Clinton Foundation and so on tell me about the Cultural Impact internationally you talk about much earlier on the ira celebrating him you talk about paul robeson celebrating. The tour in the context of the vietnamese war why is it true salutatory was a raise from my history book and yet it was in irish books and books in vietnam well i think that part in a sense of a slightly bigger conversation which is how how do we remember the colonial period and for a long time those stories were written by and in a sort of way that celebrated the circle achievements of empire and and this is. Also true of the french. The french french a secondary School Children are found to my astonishment i do not learn something here but the point that i make in the book is that theres a survivor and what i would call popular memory he survived in the minds of the slaves who were fighting to free themselves in the 19th century and he survived in the minds of all the people who were fighting against colonialism and imperialism in the 20th century he really has this iconic figure even under british broadcasting rules today i have to say to our viewers we do not back during the war and the kind of a tactics used by to salute or why do you think it changed from becoming the richest country in the western hemisphere to the poorest as it is today well there were a number of factors but i think one of the most important ones is that in the 1820 years the french basically blockade the newly independent state of aids and force that and haitian government to pay a massive indemnity to compensate the french slave owners for the loss of the slaves and that indemnity basically represented Something Like 40 percent of the g. D. P. Of that and haitians ted a precursor to the i. M. F. And World Bank Debt programs absolutely and also the thing to remember is that you know when that debt was finally paid off. In the mid 20th century so the the the haitian government was completely constrained by this terrible burden and of course once you lack Economic Resources to that extent that opens the door to political instability and of course the americans invaded and occupied haiti in the early to mid 20th century the the socalled great liberal Woodrow Wilson was the man who actually invaded 80 and read. Should use racist laws so one of thats one of the many things we should. Tragic story. Is that it really shows. The socalled liberal. Doctors are there as a recent thank you and thats it for the show will be back on saturday too obviously the day that International Stock markets or their worst collapses in history as the western economic crisis to cold until then you can catch all our interviews on our you tube channel and join the underground by following us on Twitter Facebook instagram and sampling. Secret prisons are not usually what comes to mind when thinking about europe however he even the most prosperous can be deceived weve seen the zeros on the work to view houses were allowed to leave prison was located and only cia people had access to the story for investigators hell they uncovered the darkest dealings of the secret services but i mean. The great unknown in. P. C. Maybe a sore knee for. Crying for justice. No one i mean yet theyre still on their last act on many pro monotony and our power. Kind of where i want to. Step back and not think now when think its hard enough. Members of the african mafias promise them safe and quick passage to europe but once they. Leave they are enslaved. They call it speech util. Some of them maybe a mom and i couldnt you know if this you know get it out to him. From the chain quick. They sold the. Lead. Core of the a man who. Was the persona that a kid even thought ill be the norm. There is a saying in washington dont let the perfect be the enemy of the good this appropriately describes the Political Warfare over another stimulus and to center of this standoff is who wins or loses just prior to the election in the meantime tens of millions are suffering with no way and do something. And hope to foam or sell a new claim on much as the google is skewing such results of the us president ial election but whose benefits a. Political talk will in the u. K. Northern us laptop Boris Johnson from posting tough new coronavirus restrictions on the reach of we also people how they feel about to. Be economic package they announced just it wont keep people alive they think they should put this into through about giving people the correct by not just more civilized people are going to be able to survive a bit on front continues its crackdown on hate speech at all does the closure of all the mosque thought mean