Transcripts For RT CrossTalk 20240712

So breme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and americas preeminent russian expert steven cohen both will be remembered for good reasons their legacies assured. They discuss this and more im joined by my guest glenn hes in oslo he is an associate professor at the university of south used to norway as well as author of russias geo Economic Strategy for a greater eurasia and in budapest we crossed to george samueli he is the author of bombs for peace natos humanitarian war on yugoslavia originally rules in effect music and john you know what i dont appreciate how its going to its going to george in budapest a george of course will be the biggest news right now is the passage job just as ginsburg and whats going to happen next and on this program i really dont want to big. Or about the procedure of it all of you know it isnt appropriate for trying to do this in the past its been argued that a right before an election will you know Election Year you should do that if there is a bacon say you can go back and forth you know in all sides have changed their mind ok and theyre all eating their words and i cleaned up the sign and talk about the state of the court because you know not too many years ago i think george and i would probably remember pretty well you know them being born when joe just as bork was a for confirmation and prior to his nomination it was advice and consent is the person a jurist a good jurist it had nothing to do with politics now it has everything to do with politics and that was posed to be the one branch that wasnt supposed to be infected by politics it was about interpretating the constitution as the founders laid it down were losing them weve even lost and i would argue go ahead george yes youre absolutely right peter but i think the court has itself to blame for that because it waded into politics it waded into politics a long time ago and i mean bottom it the blame also rests with the politicians who prefer not to take. Serious political legislative decisions and is that they left things to the courts and so all of the major rulings in the process last live past 50 years have been decided by the courts which is an unelected body and so therefore the stakes became evident i when you think of all of the big rulings in the United States you know the School Prayer ruling the desegregation ruling the abortion ruling the gay marriage ruling none of them was decided by legislation which is where political decisions should. They decided instead the courts waited in happily. And after all as the years went by the fight over who would stop the courts became ever more bitter and so than that and that why were here and where we are up which is here is a liberal justice ruth bader. Consistently votes with the liberals is now dead is a conservative president and a conservative ruled senate so now because the stakes are very high thats why the fight is going to be extremely better as they were in the case of camelot because there was a swing vote candidate who was replaced by a conservative so you know again the courts are to blame for this and of course the irresponsible politicians you have landed that this is really in this is about the. The growing illegitimacy of institutions and its been creeping along george has pointed out here how its been politicized and id like to point out here thats how the left is only this is really neat only the way the left has got its agenda through is through the courts here and thats whats given conservatives its almost an existential imperative now because what they see in all of these major social legislation has come into effect through the court not through congress here and this is why conservatives are up in arms and will definitely vote ok even though i would say gore should or should seek and. Havent really met expectations nonetheless this is going to motivate people. Will agree with that because this seems very much like so tomorrow why theyre. Moving the country so i think that either country conflicts important because this is not just a course where you see you know a lot of the Democratic Institutions and they are coming on the great progress or stress. So we see them crossed in to meet us or in the who seems just more all seem more like mouthpiece all the rest of political parties. If you know her and their children and their daughters and you have a congress with ridiculous lelo support and most likely will see the president ial election election someone disputing the legitimacy of outcomes a matter of who wins. The fail to recognize that this 3rd branch of power which is the Supreme Court. Has for a long time been a problem that polarizes so much i think in the last few years there is this is that escalate and then more and more with the conservatives blocked garland is you know or the argument that. Barack obama was a lame duck president. As a result its been clear with our viewers who the argument was that if the senate and the president were in different in different parties that was mcconnells explanation here ok yes and no i mean thats just in his explanation he has the power to do it its not the law its not written in the constitution it is basically is rule ok so i keep going to here every month because they belong to karl and this led to a let me let go legitimacy for the old gore search which was put in by chung and then the democrats tried to block as i remember Brad Cavanagh 2 years ago in well what i would call a very despicable effort to smear him in the most awful way so is all the conservatives are heres now is the change the rules are exceptions rule the game and they will push for an out against her back even though the action is very last round a corner but as you call it out as theres no specific rules as they think of the count the other but again this is just shows us keeps escalating and it got who knows what happens next summer you are going in with the democrats think power should simply out to more seats and to the Supreme Court or what are the conservative presence so i guess again this is. Or about how i see its other consequences of the youre situations fragment. All the 2 Major Political parties that all see each other assess are working from the same team more and more this each other. Benami undermining this whole of the country and when you are in a war or much everythings permitted which is why i say it is rulebook more and more being all torn away or are or of this looking for alternative ways of doing it. Just one last point which is i think the. Supreme court is more whole and bolts of police us ation than others because again this is where liberals and conservatives deviate for conservatives so you would see that the future has to be informed by the present or the past. And liberals this is not the past so stop struct. What it means to change so thats why a conservative stance to say you have to interpret old see what exactly was written then would follow this it has to build on this excited writings while the liberals say no you have to interpret it the spirit of it and what the spirit is is of course their whole and most ideology so you see in the quarter musher logical area or political even though it is close to being neutral yeah but you cant get your agenda across through the devout george i mean the one of the most corrupt the elements which the Court Allowed was Citizens United and and if you look at the the the the implication that is that you have you have politicians that are appointed by special interests and donors and so those politicians will look to the court in a keeping in mind they are joe nurse and what they want ok and so theyre going to be looking at the political coloration of a of a nominee theyre not going to be looking at it buys nonsense theyre not be looking at competence you know theyre going to be donors are going to get what they want because thats what they consider fears and congressmen there and. Now youre supposed to if you know all the all the regulations and any time you go to the Supreme Court and in this keep lets keep in mind the supreme for you know well everyones arguing all the time about you know theyre going to resent our really. Versus wade you know its basically the Supreme Court is very very friendly to the chamber of commerce always and that doesnt get a lot of coverage ok and thats why these politicians are very very worried that if someones going to come in and say you know Something Like Citizens United is is inherently corrupting of politics go ahead yes well thats the thing that the politicians have found a nice way of avoiding or could vote and this is this is really been the case now for well really ever since the days of the warren court. If they could just simply hide behind the Supreme Court to say well ok i mean whatever whatever i think thats the way the Supreme Court has ruled and thats it and so i had my vote doesnt have to go on the record and this is a great get out clause for all politicians and so this weekend particularly conservatives i would say ok if we think its a womans world and i dont yeah thats it and so also all of these are Big Decisions when you think of you know whether the social issues you think of abortion. Gay marriage not one of them has ever been decided by a legislature because. The few votes that have taken place in legislatures particularly on abortion or of course rolled out by say 8 Supreme Court those are all row v wade is the law of the land thats it youre out youre out of luck and now this is this goes on all the time in america where you have judges we dont know necessarily the Supreme Court but federal judges they dont like trumps all is the only big racial so they are making issue a wrong. And saves like and im not like the judge just decide for himself that this is unconstitutional and thats an excellent decision made by the elected president is then nolen right as they go up to the Circuit Court of appeals defending their what the political makeup of the Circuit Court of appeals is that they will buy the rule for the case but and again people become very shrewd and if they go the 9th circuit thats generally tends to be liberal lets go do this in the 9th circuit on the 9th circuit rules. Against the president not come because. On the legal merits it was a politics then you know then anybody brinker or and then again the decision is largely made on you know well this is the way the conservatives were those who it was a little bit so what you now have and that would be fine if you had you know votes by people who are elected to represent the people but these are all unelected judges so the most important questions in america now decided by on elect the judges and that really is a very very situation in the last 45 seconds that glenn here is just in weve been talking about how the Supreme Court decides the most important issues they may decide the election and if theres only 4 justices well i cant even imagine whats going to happen 30 seconds go. You know a lot of the problem and if this will be a disputed election outcome will most likely will be think they have the opportunity now to stock. Every side wants to have favorable. Also more sympathetic judges a place to decide what actual outcome but i would just add one to very quick thing is a child did exactly the same thing with abortion it was us. He didnt want to alienate a whole who are some democratic side in 2016 that is and if it was there well its out of my hands like i said it could be here were going to go to a short break and thats not you know one discussion on a major news. L. Look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. I robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such orders to conflict with the 1st law show your identification for should be very careful about official intelligence and the point is to create trust and shia. Areas chaing with Artificial Intelligence will summon the demon. The robot must protect its own existence as. Well about the cross stop where all things were considered im Peter Lavelle remind you were discussing some real names. Ok lets go to george and with. The 2nd towering figure that we have lost in the last couple of days the Stephen Cohen and i dont think theres going to be a lot of Television Programmes made about him but they should be a towering figure in academia and when i went to academia and he was a Guiding Light he was a bit controversial in his early days because he had a. Reem the owner re understood it and mapped out. What we understood about the soviet union russia and communism in cell he was an adviser to president s particular of george bush sr he played a pivotal role in academia and i would even say in Foreign Policy but then everything changed he was basically disappeared by the academy because he disagree with the consensus. View of russia after the cold war and he was always one that would say engagement because he remembered the cold war and remember how detente for all of its failings works because it kept us out of the major conflict your thoughts about him because united more or less studied the same thing our lives parallel in the go ahead george yes youre absolutely right peter he was a towering figure and he has been for many years i mean dont forget back in the 1970 is the consensus view among analysts of the soviet union was that change was impossible but the soviet system had to reach a kind of bureaucratic equilibrium you know there would be a brashly it would be replaced by another pressure it replaced by another pressure and he broke that hes that now i think that the soviet system can change and and in fact that change is quite likely and when gorbachev and about and whatever else you can say had coverage of he certainly institute that drastic changes he was right and you have to say he was right and those people who criticized him repeatedly in print and on Television Like Richard Pipes were wrong i mean they were they were absolutely wrong to say no no this is a totalitarian system of totalitarianism by definition chemical change so he was right there and of course in subsequently. When he has been an advocate but they dont he has been consistent he was an advocate for they dont in the seventys in the eightys ninetys and through the present basically hes saying that war is the worst possible outcome in relations between the United States and so youre in and then russia and hes been consistent as all the talk about always an apologist for putin as they were that was always ridiculous he was a very clear cool headed analyst who wanted good relations between the 2 Nuclear Superpowers and thats what drove his analysis you know glenn it was very interesting ive seen a number i saw a number of interviews with his demon before his death and one thing he stressed all of the time is that during the cold war. There was an attempt to see how the other palin i view as the world how the soviet union viewed the United States and that that is that is remarkably missing in our Foreign Policy right now is try to understand what the other guy hanks and i think that was what the success of cohens analysis of ending the cold war so a lot of what underpins i deploy a missile if you dont have the cloners it has to be based on having some recognition for the position of the other side and if you can understand that and perhaps you can meet somewhere in the middle as opposed to if you just see them as an inherent evil of couching. Or if its a little war and conflict this dont this ocean. And because of this i think that you know that was a great part of his success and again ted establishment recognized him as all for this. But again they recommended and i hear a high step president ial administration here was to go to mass for the media during the cold war when there was this push for the top and reckitt when they recognize that they have security costars as well so it. Big question what happened after the cold war well the cold war you have the unit polar moment more or less the need to understand russia was more or less gone and again thats why he also disappeared because. His argument is marriage was no longer attractive because what he effectively did was he contested the main u. S. Narrative of what happened after the cold war because if we lose there are alterations in the media what were told is that the u. S. Reached out to russia for friendship you know a guy the russians there is posture to democracy and you know it offered russia this membership in a european found of nations then clinton took over and he is just you know his thirst for empire and hatred the moccasin meant as a relationship. You know yeah they are the other we have the ukraine crisis later now well and point out again trying to understand the other side was i was recognizing that the this is not actually what took place in russia very clear they was not overt in that membership in europe in sally instead we had nato expansion which prevented a truly unification of the continent so he was never a critical nato expansion and then of course the same here is an expression of bombing of yugoslavia without a u. N. Mandate so this is all represented the cancellation of any real role for russia in europe after the cold war and also if you go on to have a voice and protect its allies it would need to stand up for itself he could rely on the seat at the table in europe so i think this is all very important if you dont understand how russia reacted again. But we dont want in a discourse anymore and again we were smear them so theyre trying to understand other side not you know doing the ground work of a diplomat know who you are now a good an apologist and. Think the youre shamed outs and hes quite unique cost. He very clearly said i do not want to mention my war because then i will miss our cause and i will be complicit in this way the prosperous and so i. Know so big a loss for the Economic Community community doesnt it you know you know george when the then irony of ironies of all of this is that steven cohen and there were a number of other people like him but primarily Stephen Cohen that he was historic he proven right about the end how the end of the cold war would come to an end he had a bet there in his hat ok and then and then we can speed up to the present you know with this ridiculous right to russia gave hoax just like what we heard from glenn i mean he didnt win the case he said this is a hoax ok it doesnt make any sense that as we get imperial sense its an obviously politically motivated and not only did i admire him when he was an active academic i married him even more in the last part of his life because he was a man of amazing integrity and authenticity he says no im not going to go along with this i dont have to im a retired academic ok i have nothing to fear and i think that it makes him really stand out as a human being not this is a scholar is that he wouldnt take the need when everybody else did was cowed oh and some of them by the way made a lot of money doing it go ahead george yes yes yes no that is right or he was right about how the cold war would end he was also right about the ninetys because throughout the ninetys it was warning that yeltsin is an absolutely calamitous figure for russia and that it will all end extremely badly it was a calamitous and he did it and extremely badly and he pointed out which somehow now is no longer miscible in western media political circles is that the west has pursued a policy that it was clearly. Arouse. Fear a legitimate fear on the part of the russians that you know when the over end of the russians were extremely well disposed towards the west. And you know essentially they got the back of the hand from the west and he has pointed this out he pointed this out particularly it over the ukraine crisis i mean and you know that that was a crisis not engineered by bush and google it pretty much pursued a kind of a hands off policy but it was a western expansion it was the promise of nato membership it was the attempt to get in a ukraine into a kind of part of the nato bloc that triggered this crisis and why because you know russians have legitimate security concerns and none of that ever gets into the into the western media market i mean you can watch it on you tube i. D. s they have a lot of money number of his confrontations with max boot with Christiane Amanpour and you can see oh these are just people who like is terrible. And the left still with this rage that you know what he was saying only what he was saying was a reasonable one you know put yourself in the position of russia you know a country that has been invaded twice in the last 100 or so years yet they have serious and legitimate security concerns you know glenn who are enduring one of the classic crisis of the of the cold war was the cuban missile crisis and its well documented that president kennedy wanted it least one person in his inner circle that would push back on everything and everything are we getting this right are we living in group think or are is our vision blurred i mean ideologically possessed because he wanted someone to always say hey give me a reality check your thats exactly what steven cohen did from almost all of his life in looking at politics and particularly the u. S. Relationship with russia thats what were going to miss and we have been miss. Well that is the Important Role that he served here. Is career started when he was getting it working with associate the center so they end up in the gulags and being released so he recognizes this need to descend from the state now what happens is the ninetys he was he had great disagree very much with american policies so he became a dissenter against u. S. Policies and then thats also when he happened to drop off the map and so for me here the story of his last 30 years of his life is really one of what happened to these former giant schools suddenly we dont want to hear from him more because hes not the only want you can mind you had George Kennan claiming he was architect of the containment policy is hell reduce on a great thinkers in america or what happened after in 1900 he said nato expansion is an assault against russia it will start a new cold war it is the worst thing that could possibly do on the fathers holds in their graves and oh he has essentially disappeared way we did not want to hear from you know this in a more and you can also say the same of jack matlock he was the last ambassador to the disobeyed union under reagan but also bush and. He said just as a credit for this difficulty go shisha no ending the cold war which was then announced to be over in 1009. 00 but then of course where what he was critical about this when he rewrite the later on say you know actually the cold war was a one why would we hear from the guy who negotiated the end of the cold war when we actually won it instead so he was also house a little bit away with all this great experience to how to understand your opponent and really lay the groundwork for the post so if cohen is not. Alone in this is we see a lot of these former giants swished or ill finish up for us here John Mearsheimer at the university of chicago in the amazing geopolitical banker and when he dissented against the iraq war he wasnt on t. V. Again until he was on this program. All right. And thank you i want to thank im going to endorse the olympics our viewers for watching us here r. T. C. In x. Time remember. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. 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