A Global Economic catastrophe amidst a pandemic and Climate Crisis will the Global Economy ever recover after millions of lost their jobs since the start of the 1st covidien used lockdown could coronavirus mean the end of capitalism and globalization as we know it and are our politicians really fit for purpose joining me now from new york city is the author of the ages of globalization Geography Technology and institutions and director of the Sustainable DevelopmentSolution Network professor Jeffrey Sachs of the center for Sustainable Development at Columbia University thank you so much jeffrey for coming on before i even get to the book in the past few days theres been a story that will commented on arguably 13000 refugees on the island of lesbos in greece all there are makeshift homes were burnt down somehow an emblematic vision of globalization in 2020. There are a lot of people being displaced and there are a lot of people suffering to right now actually not only do we have a pandemic but we have disasters of emergencies political crises all over the world and in these interconnected crises lots of people who are suffering are not even being recognized as such its a pretty dramatic time niner the new book the ages of globalization goes right from the beginning of time you yourself have gone through a journey arguably intellectually tell me about briefly about the new book weve been grappling with global interconnectedness for as long as weve been a species this book starts from our ancient past indeed our 1st migrations out of africa as modern human beings and takes us through how technological advances in agriculture in writing with alphabets in ocean navigation with the steam engine and now in our time with the digital age have reshaped this interconnectedness its quite a story of course it is the the history of humanity because we are globally interconnected in fundamental ways whether we have nationalism or not we cant help but having this interconnectedness of course a days before this book was being finalised came the pandemic a so i you quickly scrambled with a preface at the beginning to say well this is quite horrific its not the 1st time pandemics themselves have reshaped our lives as well they are also emblematic of globalisation you know we have government advisers on this show sometimes quite a quite a few but we dont have people who advised more than 140 countries around the world to learn un secretary. Generals the big question about the pandemic of course is what is your advice to rich and poor countries grappling with a recession a depression may be the worst in centuries my advice always which politicians dont like is for us to understand the situation and look around at whos doing well because in this pandemic there are a few countries that have gotten an under control chinas one of them a korea to a large extent Australia New Zealand vietnam among poor countries lot he our cambodia really amazing quite poor countries have beaten this virus down and then the United States out of control brazil out of control and so if you study these patterns you learn a lot 1st of all about bad governance because we have disastrous governance in the United States now we have been learned in the last couple of days trumps lies of course thats not news but lies specifically about the pandemic. What an idiot im sorry to say because at 190000 deaths in this country because we dont have the truth about whats happening so a lot of what we learn about the pandemic is you need data you need science you need evidence you need truth but ive always see the c. D. C. Says they giving that information and travel theyre not well done there and has the locally not called donald trump on the some of the september said starting to get very high marks in our handling of the coronavirus china virus especially when compared to other countries and areas of the world now the vaccines plus a coming in fast thats what your presidency the United States has had one of the worst experiences of this pandemic and i would say ive never seen such poor leadership in the United States in my lifetime i believe hes the worst president weve ever had though you know there are some 19th century president s who are no great shakes you fail to defame and Bernie Sanders i understand i did. I. More importantly want honesty and decency in government because thats the only way that lives can be saved and were not even to this moment taking the basic measures that those successful countries have achieved so when it comes back to your question whats my advice ive been saying for months look at the countries that are successful what are they doing of course using face masks physical distancing blocking large gatherings collecting data tracing the pathways of infection helping people to isolate safely basic things even before a vaccine we have a higher per capita death rate here in britain and bring his advantage also same style improvisation not consistent in its policies this is really something were learning about the difference of populism and personality on the one side and saving lives but isnt there Something Else in the Something Else of other countries you just mentioned which is the role of the state you mention China Vietnam of course relatively well known the Coronavirus Response in venezuela in cuba in countries which did not embrace new liberal globalization isnt that a fact i think the factor is good clear governance in fact there are countries that are democracies there are countries that are not democracies there are countries with very different political structures new zealand has gotten the cases basically down to 0 i should say though its going up again a new zealand now now but its not going up in large numbers its notable that there is a new outbreak but thats after. Essential is 0 it still tiny numbers measured as a per. 1000000 population for example which is a good way to make comparisons in europe and the countries of Northern Europe especially finland denmark norway and iceland 4 of the 5 nordic countries have done a very good job of keeping the death rates low say compared to the u. K. Or italy look i think i think sorry to interrupt but weve been told here in this country the important thing now is to get britain back to work its a its an idea thats often said from podiums in the white house as well is it austerity that will be required to get to the g. 7 economies and g. 20 economies the worst hit ones back to any kind of economic now that the idea of getting back to work is. Fine but you cant get back to work in a raging pandemic without controlling the pandemic actually the country that has had the most significant rebound in the economy is china and china took extremely strong measures after the initial outbreak in a but it took them decisively for about 45. 00 days the virus came almost to 0 there are a few cases but after all china a few cases new cases per day i would say but after all china has 1400000000 people so a very low numbers of. Cases per 1000000 population and chinas been able to reopen the economy in the United States with all this bluff and lie and we care about the economy we dont care about the virus and so forth we are suffering an unprecedented downturn and mass unemployment and the pandemic still goes on so this idea that well some people said its the economy some people said its the virus is a basic missile. Understanding if you have a pandemic you need to stop it if you want your economy to recover is their big irony you coming from you extolling the virtues of china because obviously you have brought in russia to the full of the soviet union if it had been the chinese going as a body that had failed and youd been an advisor back in the late eightys youd have privatized all of the structures that the today clearly helping the Chinese People cope with kovan absolutely not and i pretty sure you know better but im not sure you do. I recommended ben for any country i advised a mixed economy of markets and government and i was banned and i am now ideologically a social democrat and that is the philosophy in which you have a market economy and you have a government that has responsibilities for example for health or for stopping pandemics and you may know but perhaps not that i was not only not only not involved in the russian privatization but i opposed the russian privatization it was lawless and i resigned from trying to help russia because it was becoming so corrupt so i was against that what i was trying to help to do was stabilize the finances of russia in 1992 and 93 but the Us Government rejected every single proposal i made which was to be nice to russia to give a temporary period of debt stands still a stabilization for the ruble help on the financing of course the history gets very garbled and people say many things but just to straighten up the record that i might have gone wrong have it in the New York Times. Ems 22nd up to 92 you say you are a free market idea of a book that is false i didnt say and it has had the now and have and by the way what i can show you point blank in verbatim interviews is that i subscribe to i said in 1989 and i would say it had a though and they didnt do such a great job i said sweden is my favorite economy so that is what social democracy is it is a mixed Economic System and the point of those years by the way i spent more time trying to help fund the russian Governments Health system so that people could get basic health care and of course i met complete wall from the hard line United States and a many many others so this is absolutely silly and this is well known and the country that came closest to. What i wanted to have happen successfully and. What in the circumstance were the u. S. For its own geo political reasons so supported the advice was poland which is exactly a mixed economy which is what it should be this is what economies should be well arguably poland stopped the privatization presents earlier than the drive to privatization in russia which created the only talk so what happened were little bit off topic but i just want to i but i do want to say that. I said and just for the record because its it is important for me to say you dont privatized the big Natural Resources of a country and give them into private hands basically in fast in those years and i was aghast at that and said that there was a lot of corruption and the shares for loans programs and all those other things i was long gone from advising because i wanted nothing to do with what was actually yeah i mean im just quoting things as it may be i know where the road youre floating oh youre quoting the times in 2002 livingstone theres where youre quoting very funny things that are the New York Times living stand up by half in russia for the 3 as professor sachs advise Boris Yeltsin but i mean listen i dont know i dont know who or what youre posting or when youre quoting New York Times 29th of november 20022002 this is by the way. Silly because that is 10 years after what were talking about so i dont need to. And is add an article by me out this makes no sense jeffrey all something that more from Jeffrey Sachs after this short break. When i was told something seemed wrong. Wrong just dont. Get to see. This day come to. Engage me because betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. Welcome back im still talking to the director of the un Sustainable DevelopmentSolutions Network professor Jeffrey Sachs lets get back to the book and globalization because in the book the role of clos and of violence formally is going to raise some eyebrows in that its not really there i mean Something Else you said in managing the debt crisis a previous book of yours you said after a civil war a new military regime under president suharto began to bring economic order to the country is the rule of violence in globalization missing from your analysis in the new book globalization the ages of globalization. If you read the book youll find it all through the book but the violence of capital again thats the masses of work as below. If you read the book youll find that i make that explicit point at the core of the birth of modern capitalism i say that it was violent links of the state actually piracy and Multinational Companies after all the east India Company had a private army for heavens sake it was a company that took over large parts of india and i make this point absolutely explicitly its one of the core themes of this book and how has how much violence has accompanied capitalism so im glad you ask and im very eager for readers to read that part because this is a core part of what this book describes to them where is the reputation of Shock Therapy come from about you in bolivia in mongolia in russia when where has this reputation come from you know how simple minded the media are sometimes yet listen i dont know do you know what it means to have complex views and then have them repeated day in this acco chamber of 2 words for 30 years its absurd so i dont know where it comes from except for the fact that in our world today but i think its always been true like this things get repeated and repeated and repeated by people who dont read dont know dont think dont have the concepts and want a slogan so everybody wants a slogan but lifes not about slogans we live in a complex world ok i mean i think this is just because just to give you you know. If we could go on at length about this i be happy to although would be an economic seminar. When i worked on in those years was helping financial stabilization for example bolivia to. Get rid of a massive overhang of debt i almost didnt have a 1000000 time m. T. V. Went up in bolivia of the year and i was in the gallows not stop stop being so celie by the way this is not debating points if this is absurd frankly speaking ok im sorry it looks just telling you whatever they stuck in your book to ask me its stupid because this is not the way we should be lets get to the hell logical it really is not the way we should discuss things because the fact of the matter is just to take the libya from 18022980 from 9792984 there were Something Like can heads of state i dont even remember was complete chaos they reach 60000 percent annual inflation a complete collapse of b. Economy narco government for several years thats the fact thats the basis that i walked into this youre telling me about whether t. V. Went up which is nonsense by the way theres a doubling of what you indicate is here to break i can give you the big no no no well thats it thats thats moving no wait a minute this is the kind of sandbagging that really makes no sense in an interview im sorry because if one wants to have a serious discussion. You know which i will start with when you are in complete chaos you need to create some kind of base so that people can survive when you have 60000 Percent Inflation and bankruptcy i came up with a strategy to actually eliminate the debt it was the 1st time i told the i. M. F. No they cannot pay that was the basis to get started again on some stability and on improvements of Living Standards and Life Expectancy and Child Survival and Vaccine Coverage and so on in an impoverished place that had had chaos beforehand they didnt invite me there for a vacation and they didnt invite me there because something was wonderful and then professor sachs would make it terrible i was asked because it was complete chaos and no one else was interested by the way and i had to face down the i. M. F. To say no impoverished country in the all to plan 0 that has gone through a hyperinflation one of the worst in World History needs that debt cancelled not just to be repaid as the i. M. F. Was asking for invent as the i. M. F. And will bang their recognize that they did make mistakes of course the destruction no that is not all of this im happy to hear that ive she said you talk about bolivia what is your view about evo morales and whats happening in bolivia at the moment. Im not there. So he has because arguably it has been u. S. Foreign policy in all these countries that is another context of the the questions that you raise in the new book yeah and if you would follow im probably the most outspoken person in the United States opposing the sanctions on venezuela because i think that they are illegal and i think that they are devastating to a country and there are not too many people in my country speaking out that way so i and my previous book called a new Foreign Policy beyond american exceptionalism is filled with the history of america regime change so perhaps you didnt know that but thats actually my view ok ive got to ask of is this speaking for britain about brics that you have been an opponent of it in the past what do you make of the developments here apparently britain saying it may have to remain going to an International Treaty do. It with the people of britain going with rex a look britain doesnt have to renege on a treaty Boris Johnson says he wants to renege on a treaty if governments could just follow through on what they have promised to do and actually act transparently and honestly not with the improvisation of Boris Johnson or donald trump we may actually save lives stop a pandemic keep but trade going and not have autonomy is in shambles so i am against this kind of improvisation where you agree one day and then the next day you say well im going to send a lot to parliament that is in violation of fundamental things that i agreed with just recently because i dont want to do those anymore what kind of government is that. Now youve witnessed the rhetoric of the chump administration what it says about china bump aoe said in august the 2nd just say whats happening now isnt cold war 2. 0 the challenge of resisting the communist party of china threat is in some ways worse what do you think that means for the world us policies of each other at the moment they have way Company Sanctions and so forth for the world it means i hope that donald trump is defeated in november because this is a very dangerous policy and i wrote an article which people could find on line explaining that mr pompei o himself is apparently an evangelical who believes in the coming armageddon and he seems to be provoking or moving us closer to it im not in favor at all and i thought that speech it was one of the worst and most dangerous that i can recall of senior american official and i was actually before talking about the logical crisis i know you in your many different roles have been highlighting the ecological crisis where do you think that is at the moment you know this will be perhaps the 2nd hottest year. On record 2020 could be the hottest. We have california completely ablaze again in mass forest fires we have extreme temperatures in. The arctic north of russia we had temperatures on some days around 40 degrees celsius. It this planet is destabilized by us mainly as the unfortunate side effect of what was a very good thing which was using fossil fuels which. Made possible the modern economy but it was discovered already more than 150 years ago that the Carbon Dioxide that comes when you burn fossil fuels creates the. A Greenhouse Gas that traps heat on the planet and warms the earth so weve known this for a long time but in our excel aerated Global Economy weve started putting out so much Carbon Dioxide emissions that we destabilize the climate then when we realize that that was 1992 we signed a treaty to say weve got to stop this before it becomes dangerous and of course its so hard its hard for russia its hard for the United States its hard for australia its hard for saudi arabia its hard for canada any country that has fossil fuels whether its call oil or gas said are you kidding were going to use them this is where our our wealth comes from so nobody has self control and theyre about hanged countries in the world that dominate the supply of fossil fuels the u. S. Russia china india with their coal the gulf countries and so on and and australia canada doesnt matter what kind of political system the politics in all of our countries is keep pumping thats wealth thats money thats where were putting our power comes from and so we cant seem to stop ourselves even as the temperatures are rising the disasters are rising the science is telling us are you kidding are you not going to stop before destruction and yet the politics keeps driving us forward and weve got. You know weve got a president and so much political corruption that the oil lobby and the coal lobby dominates our politics so the president cheerlead as much oil gas and coal i should just having the point were running out of time we have an ag im going to tell you the trump but with a straight on the senate this is attempts at every day of my presidency we will fight for a cleaner environment and a better quality of life for every one of our great citizens you do understand that part of the idea is never listen to what the man says because every word seems to be a lie when he says Something Like that because everything that his government has done has a poll out of b. Paris climate agreement even the other big fossil fuel countries didnt pull out of the paris climate agreement are you kidding paul out of the one global agreement to stop the human induced Climate Change one out of 193 countries im not impressed prezza Jeffrey Sachs thank you and thats it for the show will be back on wednesday which marks martins day in libya commemorating the lives lost in the fight for libyan independence from italian rule the now 69 years since its independence libya for me africas richest because of the nation finds itself in war arguably catalyzed by destructive policies promoted in washington and london until then keep safe wash your hands join the underground when you try to sound out its coming future. The world is driven by. No dares thinks. We dare to ask. Tourist regime change planes and why it is not and will love working there was also the nub of the saga benefits from this very strange episode. We dont have legal grounds for the criminal case yes and that is why we are Legal Assistance from the german side. Russias foreign minister hit back at western allegations over the alleged poisoning of opposition figurehead accent of ali a murky montell demand for data from the lead. Also this hour Vladimir Putin calls for an International Internal dialogue in dollars to end the postelection unrest during a meeting in sochi with a present look at. Play as of those we want to build the russians to handle their situation without any external assistance or pressure. And britain bans gatherings of more than 6 people to slow the spread of coronaviruses but that does