Over confidence even the bass of back and examine this you mean the best possible scenario the vaccine will still have its limitations whats a realistic expectation at this point of time or whatever back you should be able to do ill be talking about i dont know seasonally protecting high risk groups or is it all about eliminating 1000 and its to tally. Its certainly not about to limit it to the virus which is probably impossible when the only virus the terrible been eliminated to a small theyve now been trying to relive in a rodeo for 40 years its cost Something Like 10 times the original estimate and its still not totally successful so it would be a disaster if people stopped saying we must try to eradicate the virus because it will prove it will prove impulsive oh and phone to call straight its a question of control i heard you say before that historically vaccines have been prone to all Mission Creep so to say the zapper expanding objectives and part of that may have something to do with the fact that the vaccines are one of the Fastest Growing markets for big pharma but speaking of these idea that we batted develop vaccines against everything do you take it as more commercially driven or is it perhaps just a form of magical thinking the psychological demand for hawaiian more safety which i think is a characteristic of our time and. Thats a very difficult question. I think the important thing to emphasise as that the kind of underlying dynamic of Vaccine Development the strange and in the 19 a is whereas previously vaccines have been seen as purely ringback an only launcher or a tool of public cattle through they increasingly in the 1980 s. Became seen as a commercially valuable commodity and there was a partial decoupling between the needs of the Health System on the approaches to fracturing development but under a recently a great deal of the dynamic behind Vaccine Development risk commercial now its more complicated to with kofi not. Its very very much commercially driven not speaking about it 900 specifically and i. Think you would probably agree with me that its not the data the ester fire says when it lands on the miserable achille compromised populations its dangerous magnified many times over and this is a line major issue with the race to vaccinate approach because i think it ignores a vital part of what makes this virus. So dangerous and so deadly. Dont you think that in focusing so much on vaccines we are essentially taking a shortcut and ignoring structural issues which make so many people not all but so many people so susceptible and small vulnerable not only to cope with my gym but to many other viruses as well are turkey agree that theres an interesting question for a historian because. In 1998 there was a very famous come from certain not key in kazakhstan which came up with the idea of helpful all on the idea was very much the vaccines or any specific disease focused acknowledged to be seen as a long weapon bugs used within a much broader Socio Economic approach to dealing with. The rejection by someplace or as some by some experts of the idea that the Infectious Diseases had to be treated with a much broader array of lets say equalizing technologies providing basic health care and decent Living Conditions for every party and that was the only way of protecting us ultimately and vaccines have to be seen as one instrument in that role in that broader approach but some people prefer to forget about that and say we must take it with a System Technology is a disease or time so. We launched the idea of focusing on those Socio Economic course of your conscience and i think thats one of the tragedies are our present situation and why we become overreliant over we place too much faith in a back street you know its the the magic bullet that will slow up with limbs a lot of experience of voicing concerns about the speed of development and under investigated long term consequences but i would like to ask you about the vaccine design because most of the developers are currently in the face of the trials of focusing on a single viral approaching the salt spike protein as being immunize an adjective and isnt that preaching dangerous isnt that putting most if not all that absent one busken well i know. Im not a viral edge of a store of banks and knowledge as. What struck me as the. 10 or so back seems there are counter to vaccines now in trials indeed some of them aching to solve taken of platforms like that and some of them im making here so of recombinant d. N. A. Trigger knowledge is which are not yet been used in existing human licensed human bankruptcy so im going to i mean im not an expert on these these things but i wouldnt say id be morning trying to place my faith in a vaccine that uses an established platform an established way of making vaccines i mean its very complicated because most vaccines consists not only of. Thing the one who may protect but also an active and which will strengthen the reaction well what im struck by is that how little coordination and any there is on being a National Level it seems that everybody is just and rushing to bring a lot of whatever they had in Development Without really trying to 0 on you know how much their breaths and take on different areas of expertise is that in that jamil in a situation like this or do you think it would have been managed in an more effective way and if so by well now we get into questions of politics i mean thats something. About the present situation of course is that were now in a situation in which the the World Health Organization which tried our kind of monopoly of moral forestry in the field and stream progressive we undermine. Its very difficult to say where and if consensus could be reached survey is. A structure kovacs reaches been established by the World Health Organization and godfrey something called c. P. Which is basically all slow but to a number of launches countries have chosen not to participate in it it should be a way of ensuring some drove or anxious to backstreet and even in poor countries but the big problem is that Vaccine Development in this band has become as been turned into a matter of global geopolitical strangeness and thats tragic we will definitely talk more about that but let me ask you a question about w. H. O. Its very hard to see you would just pass its policies in a balanced way partially because adults under doesnt immediately invokes all the. American political infighting but as color jeev being the w sure has lived up to the authority that it claims for in south aroud these prices we needed to have a new fish person to we have to restore it. Any of this this is so different a situation im from lets say the way in which smallpox was eradicated in which the w. H. O. Presided over a very successful a ready Commission Campaign in which the major powers in the wont whatever their political differences ship them aside in order to collaborate under the auspices of w. H. O. In ridding the well look this terrible deceived were all still look bad so no at the moment w. H. O. Khan to get them but the world we better if youd coach well there is no question about that i guess im trying to figure out the limits of the sort of cord a nation versus as they are in Decision Making because after the make a very interesting point that many governments are now failing themselves to be under pressure to conform to some sort of a Single Health policy regardless of the it in a logical situation on the ground there social taboos that cultural attitudes that budgets and i would argue that we have seen this play out vividly if theyre out of the call it manton been done it when there was a very strong push for strong quarantines even though that would have produced. Major problems and now theyre you know satyrs of us aside to hasnt really served us well i mean im not speaking about of course nation but the sense that ive singlehanded single policy approaches you and i gloat all condemning regardless of what the situation really is on the ground im not even sure what the parameters are whatever of some turturro policy would be. One of the issues of course at the moment is how to ensure. When theyre all is a vaccine all right there are a number of vaccine they get to the places that then most needed there really werent even agree or the world wouldnt even agree as to what those places are i mean most people now are saying. Since at the beginning there wont be enough vaccine for every party. Priority should be given to those those most urgently need of it Like Health Care workers or people in essential capacious but thats not likely to be much agreement as to who that is. And what about the millions of people in refugee camps theyre not going to be at the top of any for his list of priorities and yet they could easily turn into a hotbed of growth the infection its hard to say its hard to think of instantly implementable solution because the the situation were in have such a deep roots going back lets say at least of the 1980 s. And cops are. A lot of issues to consider but for the time being at professor going to have to take a very short break well be back in just a few moments in. The new gold rush is underway and gonna thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich is a good way out of prison today over those that whatever children are torn between gold and education from me was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to school which side will have the strongest appeal. Join me every thursday on the Alex Sullivan show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business im show business ill see you. Welcome back to world to fight this tour the globe Professor Emeritus of science and Technology Studies at the university of amsterdam or to someone just before the break we touched upon the geopolitical aspect of Public Health and using valid that argument in New York New York times piece where you rode that the race to develop a vaccine isnt just about saving lives its also about power profit and National Prestige is there anything wrong with that thats a very good. Well we like to think. The its all about saving lives but in fact the very beginnings of Public Health in the 19th century the founder of Public Health hooterville called said dont Public Health his politics played by other means and will lead to think that all the fullest systems are dependent on the initiatives that are taken are in the interests of on health and in fact. That are not true to me because they also have an 8 infused with those other considerations how to live it as i mean that isnt the only thing you need to. Look at that is the sort of Public Health problem profile at a major countries in europe the that you know people insist on not at the top of benda not each talked a lot about the fact that it will act. Too backwards and i wonder what equitable even means in these danger isnt the governments 1st obligation to its own citizens yes i suppose it is inevitable and i suppose politically well politically inevitable for sure their governments will think 1st about their their own citizens but then we get into the vexed question of who on whose we whose obstacles. Im british where im pretty sure im ducks ive been living in a country which is not the country of my birth for a long time the deep blue pill asians now are very mobile. It because its more difficult than it might have been. 50 years ago even to say who people are so yes its inevitable i think collision communicable that got him elected politicians will give priority to their own citizens sons but there are times to be somehow downtrodden by. For those who not over are considered to be us who where do we draw some lunch now i want to ask you specifically about national mistys because. This name be a selfserving question before you remember that the russians were there 1st you register that youre in a vaccine and theyve received a lot of negative press in the west a lot of allegations that the problem is sacrificing our jacket as if it was shall or glory even though Russian Developers are going to have the same status as our western colleagues theyre publishing their results in the same medical journals like the labs and i want to be on such a politically and diplomatically charged issue how does one distinguish legitimate concerns from politically driven and actives. Well for most of us or to people because regionally go whats available in the public media ive seen the reaction. The vague to the launch of the russian backseat no longer registration its not necessary in order to know it started these base a try as i mean thats the baby how the russian process works where the one hand its true or right as far as i understand thought phase 3 trials of that fraction of not being completed on the other hand i have no doubt order of the negative publicity in the west is promptly motivated by both political and commercial interests. I mean. Russia one previously the soviet union had a long tradition of making that actually in film a very long scandal thats sure and i think the only thing we can probably agree on is that nobody really agree so knows where the 1st generally available and effective function will come from now there is 11 more important distinction between a russian and the west and approaches to your taxes and. Partner and it from from your own writing because in the west as you write this states used to be involved in the production of saxons but its no longer the case in most countries its primarily a corporate down to price in russia most vaccines are still developed produced and overseen by the state and i wonder if there is any difference in how that seems made how they are developed how they test the child and market it how they sell how theyve used depending on who runs the back of the business by the its the state or whether except for preventive price who as are times im working with people from 9 country is on a book. There where the writing on exactly how this ship will uptick to private domain to place in each country its very complicated question id rather own id rather come back into yes when we finished our book. I think on the one hand it was true that many of the state in strict troops in many countries were. Underfunded perhaps insufficiently wretched like tears but also were denied access to the most Sophisticated Technology areas by commercial companies that are patent to them so on the on around. Those institutes absent deficiences without any doubt the people trusted what they produced because people knew that they were better to produce the tools the Better NationalHealth System required bot. There is no doubt that the o. In stripy own Public Sector institutes Richard Dieter most countries short of vanished or all are in process of being dismantled. Where there was a deficiency is were seen as trustworthy as it were so the interests of the people to british and they were not much if at all influenced by markets all commercial considerations weve lost something. For sure and thats the wrenching out of the book were working on im looking forward to reading it because here youre always very very interesting if fact in that book you also mentioned that. This attitude towards vaccines as these the holy grail of Public Health as the main to acknowledge ease of control and prevention was in part form because of their rivalry between the soviet union and the United States you know alluded to actually a minister earlier that the United States was pushing for vaccines and that its only if you any and was advocating abt rother Socio Economic im prone to. Fall waiting because of it 19 pandemic which really demonstrated i think this same deal says in fascism at the ball of disease i mean its really a hybrid disease at its core do you think that will change do you think there would be more war are so her appreciation of how sick and commercial practices may. Jeopardize Public Health did extended then the state may not be even able to deal with that because it even without calling it 1000 many states were already struggling with the rates of diabetes and heart Heart Disease etc that were primarily produced by you know runaway consumption of certain people. Well just one slight correction the the emphasis on a broader approach came suddenly from the from the from the server during the it also came from the w. H. O. And the director general of that every chair at that time now tamala who was from norway odonnell also said it has to be brought. Whether we can ever go back to that. Who knows i mean i mean i dont think the brutal system thats very quick to look what to be done from the financial crisis of 10 years ago what you read. From previous academics were not very good at learning because it seems to say oh interest trumps knowledge well you seem to be very pessimistic and i think theyre quite good fuel very inspiring examples of lets say sort of broader Human Interest in mind and one of them in my view is the polio vaccine after you masha and these facts and before as as an example of sort of geopolitical competition and this audience trumpeting its success at their successes in producing that backs and but behind it it is actually a story of collaboration because they saw that scientists god that their regional sample from that american colleague who had adopted time no chances of getting bad backs him into a production because it was based on an attenuated polio virus rather than in it and captivated by that the United States was favoring at that time so collaboration and pretty large scale collaboration it was possible even to hide of the cold war surely it should be possible now of course i would like to think the search for simple i would like to think that we can tackle the social and economic courses both from the emergence of new viral diseases. Susceptibility to infection. Its hard to know who. Are we do care about i mean it would need it would require a transformation. Ways of living if we are if we are political leaders are really to facing seriously perhaps perhaps its possible i would like to think its possible. I dont see the seeds of it yet well maybe you got stuck being skeptical maybe my questions actually absence i want to finish with a very practical question based on in part on on your book ask about have accents became so controversial because you know that if you know them and master and yet you recognise the 2nd has a patient and suspicion at around the issue of vaccines is not unwarranted because they were instances of a method call and commercially driven paddling of vaccines now how should parents go out about it should they research every single vaccine and theyre acting current its 1. 00 to 6. 00 recommended by the dollar and shown more than good seemed into about men i mean how do you make an informed decision on such a complicated issue when youre sitting there by yourself in your living room and youre trying to decide whats best for your child well i think one thing wont one thing on their to say to the pope and sometimes both wester throw in a different light on vaccine hazards im sure youre going to show that the reasons that Something Like 50 percent of people in many countries in some countries are now saying they wouldnt take a back shouldnt against the code be 19 vaccines even when there is one so on the one hand theres the question of reestablishing people strong strain of banks because we need people to accept one if its going to have any benefit to compare any benefit the other questioner or so to choose sometimes a policy question to choose between. Which track seems to introduce into the international and thats the nation scheme and how to choose an alternative i think one listen we all want to have love. Bob probably have them as the vaccines have to be acceptable to the compilation before they are broken down to no in a society because if the nauts acceptable there is a real risk of undermining faith in the vaccination system as a whole and i think governments are under such pressure to introduce a vaccine rapidly that the willingness to consult and to ensure acceptability somehow can erode joint think people have to trust the vaccine we have to think about how to reestablish trust both in vaccination generally and in a crew 1000 factory where we have wrong and that raises questions that go beyond the Health Beyond terror but there are about trance to political systems and in our instructors some stress of living we are out of time are really grateful for you joining us today thank you very much for being anchored very much an interesting discussion and they hear full western hope this year you can next week i will that part of. Our i am very. Sorry. Tigers financial survival guide. On a few. Weeks i saw some of my eggs from the fisher price car wash kaiser risks. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation or community. Are you going the right way or are you being so. Direct. What is true what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Orem even the shallowness. Of the rallies held across pallor of protest against the president and a 2nd mob needing to hundreds of correspondence. But now drugs are supposedly we should go to leave to leave the presidency for a 2nd round of elections they want to change the fluff in the stories that shape the week job need to watch what must i want to probe into the logic poisoning of opposition figure ill explain involving an issue thats far top job and or make. Why does an evolving need such a level of protection from a Security Service and political murder is part of the putin system why would the russian government be so stupid to them and even left no money flying out to germany instead of hiding him in russia