Discuss this and more im joined by my guest bundys and a slow he is an associate professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as the author of russias geo Economic Strategy for a greater eurasia and in budapest we have George Samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato is humanitarian war on yugoslavia right gentlemen crosswalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate ok lets go to also 1st theres a lot of discussion about trumps decision to move i think what 12000 troops out of germany and the way the the the theme is is that coming out of the white house germany is not paying its nato bills but that im not satisfied with that explanation oh by the way its bipartisan its a bad idea everyone knowing i know everyone that knows me watching this program i think nato should be dissolved completely but nonetheless and you know the top line story here is misplaced this is about a fraught relationship that germany has had with in nato with the United States leading that Alliance Since the end. Since theyre not in the end in the end of the 1940 s. All the way to the end of the cold war in 1901 so theres something much bigger players go ahead. Well obviously its a much much bolder than his predecessors no you are correct this is something that has always been some tensions in the relationship has always gone on for example throughout the cold war americans were to large extent a concern about some of the european integration and us remember after the cold war you had meddling albright to cautioning the europeans that you know the e. U. Should not be a couple from nato remember that nato stimming institutions now. This because well they are simply because the european integration and the ablest this continent to use collective Bargaining Power to have greater equality in relations with United States so this is quite normal for any country why would you cooperate with 27 to 27 countries seeking. In the negotiate from business a signal strength and they always have the incentive to deal with one state individual instead of a bilateral basis and then maximize their influence however to us nonetheless membership support of european integration of least a certain extent because it provides the price United States with a very powerful lot was very important to recognize this dilemma that the u. S. Always space saw a strong e. U. Weakens the us within the west however a stronger a partnership with the e. U. Then also becomes a source of collect intentional and us to empower a Strong Partner who can hold together now i think now in the last few years this relation bents began to change largely because of the rise of asia with china at the center because the u. S. Wants to spend less on europe this older began with obama however they want more loyalty to the u. S. In terms of use our energy our technologies our corporations our transportation or those banks etc etc so and a lot of others on europeans do want more autonomy so and at the same time to still want americans to pay for security so this is a relationship thats always been yes on some tensions and its always been. Or should and i think what were seeing now is that has to be read the fine and i think its a mistake to simply dismiss it trumping ironic not saying that its not erotic. Well i mean erratic i mean you know use of moved in troops to another country like poland ok the u. S. Promised it would do at the end of the cold war also i find it really quite amusing that you know this bipartisan hair on fire is that you know its going to cost too much money to do relocate these assets here george they never complain about the cost of the military when theyre escalating but they do complain when they deescalate why interesting go ahead george rove had said thats exactly right its laid the one item in the budget that never causes any control the scene washington thats the military budget that i just say im screwed. Trying to propose a 730000000000 the democrats say 717000000000000000 already less split the difference i think to some 65000000000 and i just if you just waltz us through proly apparent control or see in the the bitter fighting between the democrats and republicans militaries. And of course in this case trumps proposal to withdraw all these 12000 troops from germany has indeed been attacked by actually i mean both democrats and republicans have condemned. Trumps withdrawal and opposed thats always the case the moment theres any discussion of withdrawing u. S. Troops so many ways whether its syria again bipartisan hysteria withdraw from afghanistan by putting syria and remember. The whole story of the russian bounties on the u. S. Servicemen you know you dont mean the story only wheeled out precisely at the time when he seems like where u. S. Troops are about to leave. Just as the trunk wants to withdraw from syria we saw here. About the gallant cuts we must save the cuz the cars are of the greatest ally in the world so i would expect at some point you know maybe next week some stories along the lines of that some russian john plot taking place in bali and putin is engineering some kind of a major crisis in john many so we mustnt absolutely mustnt. Withdraw any troops from germany the less this always fits into a pattern and of course youre absolutely right with withdrawing troops of germany in fact you know making steps to you know bring this nato this museum really the source though those political strategic books to an end can only be a good thing i mean sadly i think were still a long way from that at least it seems like a step in that direction you know big claim you know and reading the main Mainstream Media press on this topic here never once did i come across that Public Opinion poll consistently in germany would like to see the american treat troops leave their country 75 years after the bank wishing of nazi germany but its never mentioned in the press that you know they the troops theyre just not wanted theyre not needed and and really what this gets it whats coming into for here in your 1st answer was quite eloquent is that you just have american exceptionalism against european ideas of security and theyre clashing head left it well the mission of nato has changed because it will initially when it came to place the whole argument was a western europe was very much we can from the war and americans needed to stay there until they could be temporarily strengthened and then leave them and this was the famous quote eisenhower when he was the Supreme Commander of nato he argued that you know in one in 51. 00 they are going for still there in 10 years this whole mission would have failed because we didnt build up their p. And some didnt. Back well no the situation just show a strategy for wonders there is no so it union 2nd year is very much rebuilt but thats whats got before the keeper is now its just our structure which emerged during the cold war which is the u. S. Base for security and the europeans largely to rest are told but youre also correct that there is a discrepancy between the Political Leadership and the population mean almost every year to do this poll so whos the greatest who disagrees threat to International Security come from and almost all americas allies say United States so that there is this. It is the difficulty and the relations. So i think we with that argument i think within washington you get 2 different perspectives one is trumps argument essentially you know we have to punish the germans because they would do us were told and if youre shifting the troops in iraq then youre essentially punishing them so im trying to respect that hes actually saving they dont by having this punishment and reward based on their loyalty to the United States its more from congress you get this other perspective which is you know if you alienate. You know the europeans the germans spent effectively youre handing them over to the russians and chinese that this could be a kremlin conspiracy you know i mean yes its actually very multidimensional is george i mean they ever since the god from top to bottom when he was a candidate and now president is that theres been a theory out there is it you know forcing the European Countries or you of the nato members to spend more weight in the nation they did these nato members would realize well why are we spending so much money because it really isnt a threat to our security here and that would be a way for example saying see if i force you to pay more you dont want to be more than you see if there is no threat you know me and they actually spend it coming to fruition in a very near where theyll head. Yes that was the. The argument and thats and thats a very reasonable which is that you know ok you telling us that youre terribly frightened that this terrible big russian bear in the east ok fine and they some more you know but you know why are we protecting you youre the one who supposedly in the front line so when they say well i have yeah i know we said were at the front line but we dont actually mean that we have spent more they said ok fine and were not going to spend any more so that was that was a reasonable argument but trump also had a deeper argument which is that europe has become an economic rival to the United States i mean it was one thing to. Build up. Europes defenses in the 1950 s. And 160 s. But even from like the seventys on. West germany and as it was a lot of the time is now becoming a serious economic rival to the United States now you know 4550 years on it we can see the results of this and so therefore it does make very little sense for the United States to be subsidizing a power that is really an economic giant i mean this makes me a salute you know sense and Trump Realizes this but of course you know theres a huge powerful well oiled atlanticist establishment that is absolutely hell bent on slaughtering any attempt to. Disentangle this relationship so yeah theyre theyre just theyre just too many careers built on this ok i mean the 5000 nato bureaucrats on the continent as well i mean they you know thats the been their entire future one of the interesting things that i find interesting is that with this i mean the polls want they want to build for trump and they want american troops permanently stationed in poland again that would be against the agreements made ending. The confrontation and in europe the dissolving of the force. But doesnt poland stay standing like this its position isnt that really divided nato internally even more because it shows that there is no kind of unified understanding of what the alliance is supposed to do i mean this is an alliance in search of a mission and the poles are stepping up and defining it for the rest of the member countries go ahead. Well that was already a concern by when poland and others joined nato because of the cold war there was some concern among for example germany that they didnt want to go into russia they believed that there was able to ice on working relationship with them meanwhile the poles pretty much just wanted to be on the other side of the wall so a continued. Russian alife not a solution for nato what well you do the western europeans dont want to name russia south threats and the eastern europeans want to label russia as the solution was essential to stretch egypt ambiguity in a way just about democracy stable government and you know with friends to russia. And i think to this the guarantee was. Russia which is against expansionism and would trigger this security guarantee and wish to converse from being disorganization for democracy to again containing russia so that was the strategic i think you need you need huge military budgets you depend european democracy im not sure i really comprehend that gentlemen im going to jump in here were going to go to a short break and if you let your us action on some real news day. Who are all those driven by a. Day or so thinks. We dare to ask. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and obviously who to guess of the world of politics or business im show business ill see of and. Welcome back to cross off were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were talking about some real names. Ok george its switched gears here none of us are doctors here obviously and but were all perceptive about politics thats what we do basically for a living in one form or another and watching joe biden i mean its really its quite shocking but weve gotten down to a candidate it could be the democrats of a rally behind if tepidly that is challenged ok hes challenging it in a pariah in ways you know that we all know that this is it domestically this is all an anti trump gambit thats very very clear ok its not voting for joe its voting against donald trump but if we do have this a fight and ministration the implications are enormous how would the outside world see this whos in charge entered into an Agency Consensus whos in charge of that i mean it would send a very ambiguous message to the International System go ahead george. Yes thats it tell you right. Whats very sad here is of course how cynical the democrats have been all of this after all bidens physical and mental deterioration well as apparent throughout the primaries everybody could see it i mean the candidates themselves on the stage was seen to be sniggering at his obvious decrepitude yet they all running around him theyd all stand why is this because they were absolutely determined to defeat donald trump and they thought that lunch bucket joe with this suppose it links to the in industrial midwest would somehow be the one person who could be absolutely guaranteed to defeat trump now its becoming clear that this is really very problematic as people do see. That this is you know how can he last 4 years let alone 8 years so who is going to be running the country now this was the outside world is concerned well there are no doubt the atlanticist establishment types were very powerful in europe who would welcome oh its great this day the rich ah no the the obama crowd all the all the safe air of hands for george or maybe even the flipside of what you just said is that an empty vessel that we can fill yes yes yes thats right so that i think like the like of that i dont tell him i owe you know you know russias a rat you know weve got to you know spend more here move troops in you know yeah go along with all that so yes no doubt. Happy about this but its a very dangerous situation because you have somebody in the oval office who really isnt up to the job so he could either make a absolutely reckless foolish decision or all of the. It will be made by people who have not been elected to anything and what their own agenda thats the point you know you know glenn you know historically you know we had Winston Churchill in his 2nd stint as Prime Minister he was he exhibited mental deficiencies obviously brezhnev the soviet leader he died in power and even Ronald Reagan in the waning days of his 2nd term in office that would became became obvious that he was having some problems as well now im describing 3 individuals historically 3 important historical individuals at the end of their government Power Service ok were talking about a guy thats going in to the white house i mean that should send alarm bells should not go ahead mark. Yeah good health a key difference that its not end of his term. I agree with fear i was sent before i think that that idea i didnt is why do you want to bring him in because. Household name whos part of the old guard was with obama and this is very much an anti trump platform and. The message im discounting will be a return to the normal and he especially were a sense the positives idea biden bucks the realities of this is a great difference with its cognitive abilities according to quite probably and i hope agree thats a sense of. The progress there as well because keep in mind that the democrats have all for the last 4 years now been criticizing the mental state. I would save quite reasonably pointing to his narcissism but now theyre running a candidates roost similarly struggling with dementia so. It does doesnt bring up a lot of moral issues so. Whats going to its all about winning now of course a whopping after he wins 1st their office. Become string together a simple sentence i think. This is going to be hard on president and the for the rest of the allies especially in europe theyre going to see. One they like more than trump but also one not well qualified to leap so i may get masooma to marry much this and to missile. George i mean with the most loot one of the most important elements to keep the International System stable is certainty what can what can you expect i mean in this case i mean when i look at you know last 3 and a half years truman on the margins pushed back against this injury Agency Consensus but you could have both a man in the white house in january that will have no resistance whatsoever its going to it will sign you know well ill sign anything i mean that you know and then whos making those decisions that didnt. Then so the world you know unelected bureaucrats that like thats going to create a lot of uncertainty in my mind go ahead yes yes and what weve seen during the trump years and before all is that that unelected bureaucracy is a public menace. They have been pushing their agenda they have ignored the elected president they are the one who actually ran on the platform they simply said well we dont care about his faults that was he ran on we the people in charge because as you say we are the interAgency Consensus so if i was a dangerous situation how much more like it will this be on the bike and i mean a lot of mine well enjoy you have a good time you dont have to do anything you know spend time with your family you know you know let playing croquet whatever you want to there will run everything. And who are the people going to be running it i mean they will be people like. Fiona hill. All that crowd who kind of came out of the woodwork during the trump yes well quite frightening in the kind of pathological view of the well they have they will be in charge and you know this is a real serious threat to democracy i mean what is it like or having elections if the people who are running the country i dont think to do with any of these elections and they dont run on anything you know they did thats a perfect good point because it just shows you know they continue divorce between Foreign Policy issues and the democratic process ok you know one of the things i find really disturbing is that in the last 3 and a half years troops Foreign Policy is been all over the place i think thats a Fair Assessment think the fact that its been all over the place has actually created debate now mostly against him from the interAgency Consensus but in a bite in ministration we wont even have that debate will insist be is if for. He just this is completely separated off into a different realm because whoever is assuming the oval office in january will have to deal with a pandemic an economic turndown social unrest here and what i worry is like when george was alluding to is that you know going to have a small you know little cabin area will get will take care of the rest ok and you know those people taking care of the rest happen just asterisk record over the last 40 years. And i would also add that what is going to do to this ocean. Of the country to trust in the Political Class given mind of one of the reasons why people voted for trump even people who didnt care much for mr want to throw a wrench into the system because that distrust of the Political Class and the media for us take out the grown at a huge level which is a must definition of populism when people feel that alienated from a political cause. They believe the Political Class or to distance from them and then you have trump in power and the 1st thing they see is the political cost effectively trying to taking down with this rush again and other things other ways as are denying the results of the election hillary obviously leading living it and now once she said well he said i dont care much for the way he leads a list by the time hes gone now theyre going to put in biden who does not have. It who seems to have dementia and he seems to be the center vessel which again the political east can control it for those in the United States who are not happy with how the political system is going this is going to probably have a huge reaction this time maybe more from the political right to who will question the legitimacy just like the left can legitimately of challenge the right will not recognize the legitimacy really applied and not because he may in state election but because. Of his mental state well i mean look we have a political system that is now rooted in disbelief. Ok i mean it is so partisan george and i have talked about this privately a number of times that no matter who is declared the vendor picture in november the countrys going to explode ok and theres no doubt about it in my mind george that were rapidly running out of time one of the things i find really. Again to the point of bizarre is that you know how this plotlines matter weve got you know actually systemic racism and all of that whole narrative that is in the wake of the of the bike juggernaut as it were in the basement but it meaning theres no reflection that the american Foreign Policy for particularly since the end of the 2nd world war and this is we dont very very harshly with people of color around the world you can look at Southeast Asia you can look at iraq you can look at afghanistan you look at syria i mean theres no reflection is there i mean its all internal they dont see how Foreign Policy has been played out to the detriment of their quote unquote own values about fighting races go ahead yes thats a very good point that thats exactly that that kind of absolutes of if ocracy oh you know we really care about you know people of cholera except when theyre living abroad i mean then then we really dont care but then they just become misato i get so frightening that syrians you know that all people of color iraqis theyre not people of color you know its just you know on them the smithereens just going back to the point about what the agenda of the interAgency Consensus there is no question of these people are want revenge against russia i mean they they are furious that over 2016 and one of those dangerous aspects of the biden presidency will be this crowd that will seek a look for payback against russia i mean and i think that what. People lived through a based on allegations a myth and a hoax ok g. s the politico. Really is a cult ok because its not based on empirical evidence its based on fury resentments and revenge thats what we might get in january all right gentlemen thats all the time we have i want to thank my guests and also in budapest and i want to make our viewers are watching us here are you see an x. And remember. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Tyson nation for community. Are you going the right way or are you being led. Direct. What is truth what is faith. In a world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or remain in the shallow. One else seemed wrong. Why dont we all just dont call. Me old yet to see a pal of disdain come to council. And in gains from it because the trail. Went something find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. How can you explain love. Ive been to 82 countries i did in 12 that i came here and on those 3 days i just felt at home. I love cold weather i like the culture like the history i like everything about it. I know there. Are people listening to this again its a bit of a paradoxical so already im a big coup and im thinking like russian but the place gets you. I made my decision to come here because i knew i could build a new life. If. I am a russian far. More deals a minute through signals that small team doesnt get hoarded unionised. Be me god not all to a drug lord i mean emotion poured it. Down the doors in your. Great britain july certainty