In the history of christianity will be converted into whats going on here what is the importance of that church to. The political ambitions of say of the president of turkey what does it mean to christians all around the world in 2020 now go ahead bill. Well its one of the key religious buildings in christianity so but he did it or how did history and christianity but also for the muslims again it was it built into 6 centuries it was a cathedral and this lasted for almost a 1000 years. In eastern christianitys or for the Orthodox Christians until the amounts conquered. Because of the nobility in 4053 and there converted into a mosque now under other turkey in the early 20th century they made it into im you see it was part of that secular sation to make it into well as i should put it positioning it urges a secular state and also along with and or sister to be a good bridge between the east and west so imitating some of history but also being more european so again i can understand why turkish muslims then would like to we will not care for the fact that our most cus been clear to me see him for almost a century and it would like kept returned to a place of worship however they shouldnt also recognize that for christians to have similar concerns a serious affair was not billed as a most ill to us like a fiddle. And this kind of this is the National Sovereignty of course of turkey to decide what it should do and how everything indicates what kind of country turkey will be obviously things like pluralism and respect for other faiths this doesnt really signal that this is our skipper to use a rather specific that in itself. Will essentially history now represents one of conquests and subjugation of christians so its its i mean this major between east and west the seams turkey a suspect or worse setting itself on the front line and that clash of civilization by session it is stepping all over a christian landmark. By solely converting it to mosques now run the thing that. If youre not going to hurt us and we see if you can at least i was placed there for christian scientists who are so far the turks are simply are you. Know it will be you know buddhists hindus increases their ok coming this is a tourist destination. But its not a buddhist sort of this nation its a christian landmarks a country of a so going to miss the whole point about nearest federal role as a cathedral but you know its a bit i think what glenn said it is and is well said because this is a obviously historically important to christianity however the nominal christian west was kind of hohum about the whole thing i mean that theres very little. Reaction to a unilateral decision to critically sense turkey is under International Obligations to be sensitive to the religious artifacts of other religions and now that seems to been abrogated and and this tossed was go ahead alan wasnt it i mean i think this is punch of the fact that christianity is not as important in the west as it once was in fact you see in the west increasingly not just to secular i say shes friends but perhaps tear i say it in some places and anti christian trends we shes been gaining full size and i think that these events does not have the significance in the west that he does over there even once at in the east and east and also doxie its different i mean also doxie to a great extent actually develops in its present full as pawns hope the system of worship thats to place in this church and it is as important tool as the talks christians as say peters basilica in rugby is to catholics say hes easy radek. Full of events and the other concern that i think many Orthodox Christians would have is that of course hes full of treasures leftover from the time when he was a church their existence is inconsistent with it being a mosque there may come a day when the more militant form of this law decides that these. Christian symbols and christian art work and simply inconsistent with this present. There is another factor which i think is not be given the attention that he deserves which is that when adults are made the decision to confess the church in the last back into the museum he was doing to say things firstly he was secular icing and westernizing tacky now that is being rude 1st he was also doing Something Else which is that he was signaling to the neighboring countries the neighboring christian and former christian countries greece so union and all the rest the turkey was intent on being a good name very much part of camelot or to extoll or see it thats on a major route across not with soviet union people tend to forget very major red cross more with greece now by resisting this decision at the same time the gun is a joking a much more assertive Foreign Policy that signals to many people in the in the area around the that policy that answer so cannot assert had is being abandoned is being pushed aside so it has the major resonance in the east is not absent such great interest in the west glenn if theyre doing making a statement to the muslim world i mean obviously he has made this decision because he can do it i mean if the sovereignty issue. In a modern sense but this is and he certainly doesnt care what the nominal christian countries of the west now say and and of course its of an affront to to greece being the most important orthodox country neighboring it and this is a message to the muslim world it is a kind of been a neo ottoman ism issue headline well and it becomes so a lot of us authorities. Express this the cyrus to take a bit of a leadership position in the role and again as you mentioned its a neo modern and. Their position is how it was to some extent the social influence this all takes in syria i think its been very gone and now i think this ability to essentially stand up to the International Community and also stand up to the west and say listen we will do as we want to please. You with that are we to this case you know islam and in this fight against the western christianity i think you know that has some. Cultural. Value if you want and obviously this could have your negative cases for the wider region because if they really want to be kind of a role model and a leader of the wider region now is to be noted out across the middle east christians are treated as you know sir court record and this a lot of oppression of christians so therefore target and. Especially abound in. This protection of this. Trial and for christians it does sound opposite as being a very negative Development Also dangerous for the rest of the region so but again its not quite clear if its meant i mean for the mystical audience or d international. Well i mean irrespective it is and it is making a an impact in the muslim world i mean you know i visited. It is a stupendous architectural achievement considering when it was founded and built but right across from it is the blue mosque which is an absolutely exquisite piece of architecture as well it seems to me that this is being made for political and even religious reasons because theres no shortage of mosques in turkey obviously and the blue mosque itself was built and designed as a mosque itself in the huggett sophia. It was designed for very completely different purposes and i truly regret that the International Community secular or otherwise doesnt want to step in and and exert some kind of pressure to preserve the essence and the origins and the meaning of this church and i think not and thats whats most regrettable in my book this is actually region because of course hes in fact age of caution from traditional muslim practice to convert a church into a mosque if you get back to the 7th century when the muslims captions jerusalem the patriarch of jerusalem christian patriarch invited the colleagues. To pray in the church of the only seppuku and he refused because he didnt know a long stick to convert the church of the whom he sent into a mosque he was consent with the interests of christians and also establishing a new religion we had sent places of worship this is a departure from the tradition of his mom but hes also an assertion by. All the new policy of tacky which is to try to become the elite all a form of this long since its a signal all sex is that of a country which has been asserting its own. Recently as the leader of this which is sound you rate the same turkey is now to really turn and its very interesting to see the country search our lines saudi arabia in the muslim world like egypt egypt has a major role eastland. Scholarship see all of the the islamic leadership we need chip has opposed this because they see it 1st it isnt. But they also see it as a challenge to these stoutish leadership all places like mecca and connor as a center is all these let me well so its actually a very assertive step that guns done it puts you back in the tradition all the ultimates kooris cosc also claims leadership of his law when they were in that in the primary when they were the primary and at least leadership a sunni islam says it is a necessity step one which i dont think is fully recognized in the west as well as a major challenge its use and ken youre going to say youre absolutely right when you mention its huge on tissue significance this is this church as an extraordinary. Example of arts and again that is perhaps discounted and maybe. Being a little i dont get it about this but i mean if a major cost outside of the muslim world were converted into a church or secularize to be a huge outcry again i think this is a more of a comment on the. Lack of faith in the west than is their dobson about their ideologies like secularism communism postmodernism right gentlemen going to and i jump in here were going to go to a short break and out about short break well continue our discussion of say 30. In order to justify all the money printing the fed has to claim that theyre fighting deflation. The wages go up that would be inflation and therefore theyd have to stop printing money which means id have to stop yelling out back and solving this on the back. By claiming that theyre fighting to play fair i think gives them cover to keep this continuous rolling belle out of the zombie that. You cannot be both with yeah youre right. Welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing some real. Ok lets go back to alex in london we have this major diplomatic brouhaha heating up over the north stream pipeline the gas line natural gas line from russia to germany the germans are still are digging in their heels here give us the background of the story and why its an or well i dont she is the latest on this be built between russia which she says she hates here the o. B. S. Supply of natural gas. Central europe its the east built pipelines to germany nord stream one now theres no one to stream to them the stream which is the sultan plot money partly these are intended clearly to done this and for away from the pipelines that went through ukraine but theyre also. Economic the economic construction which makes sense but as we hear it and for russia russia has lots of gas which is wants to sell Central Europe specially has need of gas which it wants to buy what is now happening is that the United States is increasingly acting against these economic developments and if hes trying to block in the street just as it is trying to block why way in britain because hes trying to impose a lot of discipline on the members of the western alliance it doesnt straight china it doesnt want to try russia it wants to trade only with the United States all with each other and to separate themselves from the large world that had existed before is openness lee provoking a very strong reaction in germany because it is going to be a blow to those germanys economic independence from the United States but it is also. Going against germanys interests as a country that hes feeding more mole so confident and wants to such and so independently since it is obsessing about this ok look let me i know its didnt mention probably the most important word and it mean im not and im not downplaying his wonderful answered my question here but the word sovereignty comes to mind here i mean the germans are expressing their right to sovereignty and theyre all in Energy Security and not just germany. Energy security but for Central Europe this these 2 pipelines will essentially be a hub but this is something the United States of course i mean they want their european allies to buy liquefied natural gas from the United States ship but sent by ship they just far more expensive ok and i would like to point out to our viewers during the worst times of the cold war. Europe important russia soviet and natural gas that conflict is over lets lets whats in play here and let it go ahead let it is interesting because every since the 2nd world war this set is huge and the presence and influence of the United States over a year as opposed to the day to protect the earth and indeed this recent. By the United States was to ensure p. And Energy Security so again its america will then be our protector however this kind of this ng to david a little bit from the latera because theyre not going sanctioning the russians only in other sanctioning such in the europeans so its like america is now the guarding of europe however. Exactly what does it or read about souls or captive nations of the us or we merely you know children of the us must an issue if were unable to take care of ourselves so sanctioning European Companies in order to keep european Energy Security it does seem a bit absurd and obviously ad and this is where you know they may conflict comes in between the u. S. And germany now as well so of course there are many contradictions there for one of the europeans ive been saying European Security its our Energy Security as a concept where they would have greater ownership over the infrastructure of their you know course insurance if your car or more forms however now that European Companies are fearful of american sanctions a lot of this is not ending up with russia so it is unclear exactly what theyre doing in denmark now so you know its reasonable to speculate that theyve been loosening restrictions lately only under german pressure and it is only because they want to finish it sooner now because this either american sanctions are coming in so lets not drag this out lets finish it all so there is this very weird dynamic at the moment and again the u. S. Is very mush reacting to losing this economic levers of power solace on. You know that they have similarities with roy no of course the you know they had taken the streets theyre losing a bit older its so different the dysfunction of their allies as well the Russian Energy section their ally the new transportation corridors well youre also threatening the european allies new investment banks their Payment System you also threaten your own most of the more the u. S. Loses its leverage you see the more it will use economic coercion not just against other serious are also allies and as alex put out puts a critically i guess that outcome is. Dog sit up to come just like germany down more incentive not to not completely the couple about at least the 1st 5 or ties and that is an interesting outcome the germans are now taking a stand against americas this is very unusual this is very much american a result of their policies well alex its some its something that the u. S. Has initiated i mean its not germany looking for bad relations with the United States apart from it ok but i mean its forcing the issue i mean germany is not a country that you trifle with ok i mean its its making sovereign decisions about its economy and its thinking about the well being of the European Union as well its trading neighbors i mean the most amazing thing for me historically at least is that the last time we have this kind of blot discipline is when the when the comiccon countries that the countries are in the soviet orbit they were forced to trade with got countries they know it was mandated from moscow now ok and that and now you have the same kind of behavior being mimicked by washington because the more they do this the more theyre pushing their trading partners away this is exactly the point and in fact what they gain she does it is that they can to encourage more will come to this to find ways around the use the american dollar system biggest multispeed used to enforce the sanctions ultimately. Asia is a self defeating exercise the whole countrys you sanction and sanctions now almost out of control the United States is sanctioning left right and center as glenn correctly said theyre not sanctioning their allies the sanctioning companies oh theyre not honest it is completely out of control more you do that the greater the incentive for more people to get together and find ways around the United States and that will ultimately undermine it all the system which is not in americas interest however the europeans have to some extent its been very clear about this own selves because they joined. Previous american sanctions exercises against him run against russia are things you 1000 for it is way lower venezuela exactly nothing to that hora they find it is they they hate to some extent helps to construct easily used against them and this i think shows how misconceived some of those early of policy decisions actually europe which is a much more open in terms of trade depends german it is a country that tense heavily on trade so does the netherlands so do other countries a year they should be extremely wary of going down sanctions routes the United States is a much more selfsufficient so concerned he told me it can be seen geo political objectives of the europeans went along with it and now theyre paying cross you know glad to have the argument that the administration the Us Administration has made and weve had it from donald trump now and from like a oh is it we cant detach all this from nato because its much their own bridge you know you have a country like germany that wants to connect its Energy Fortunes with russia but russia is supposed to be the enemy and you need to be things spending more money and nato in for them you know you know that for the germans to say you want to spend what money on nato but russia is our trading partner here and this is what drives trump and pompei or crazy because how can you be become a trading partner with an enemy why arent you spending more money on nato and ill tell you why the germans and most of the europeans say but there is no threat there thats why they dont want to spend the money on it we want to have trading relations because you know what russia is the Largest Consumer market in europe. And thats been one of the key challenges of the United States in the past they were you know leaving military power and economic power but now they see it out there that their ability to convert their role as a Security Product into this you dont geoeconomic loyalty to you know use their technologies their companies their you know nest and banks theyre there the risk is actually weakening so so what did they do to try to make this link that if you if you depend on the store security this has to be a also expressed in your economic policies again not a very unreasonable proposition to make however as you point out that this idea that you know russia is waiting you know russian tanks waiting to roll into berlin like that no one really thinks that its this great reference so you can hide their russian threat in order to create further security dependence and try to convert it into economical it is really it is it seems to be failing and making it worse not just it was just russia will be one thing but theyre doing the same with with with the chinese and across the board so its a its becoming is and the americans are the mounding more and more and theyre capable of delivering less. You would think that at some point they were going to change their ways because this is obviously pushing europeans away and if you get some actions are best when you use moderately and. And this excessive amount of sanctions youre senshi just teaching the rest of the world to live without the United States and thats i think the lesson that you know the europeans are speaking up to us about the interesting thing is real tradition appropriately alex is that you know we had president ial candidate joe biden outflank trump and have a new buy America Thing or strong has make America Great again but you know i guess no other country can make themselves great again because the they want to protect their sovereignty is only a one way street ok only one country can have sovereignty everyone else has to do with less. Well this is 35 seconds go right this is exactly what the United States has for loss of free speech for the last 30 years i mean ever since the socalled unity only moments happened the United States sees the world very much as the United States leadership and that most agents Economic Leadership and it doesnt want to see that challenge of course the question is whether other countries all prepared now to sacrifice interests in order to keep the United States british position every relationship has 2 parties at the very least ok and i think people in washington have to realize that the other party has an opinion gentlemen thats all the time we have i want to thank our viewers for watching us here see you next time remember. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guests of the world of politics for this list im showbusiness ill see you then. I 1st heard about we do know. From the helicopter folks in iraq. 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