The g. O. P. Abstaining saw god im joined by my guest alex kristof r. O. In athens he is the director and writer for the dram dot com and in milwaukee we have jennifer a master she is an attorney and author of the new book about the one unveiled all right crossed out rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated ok let me go it was going to milwaukee jennifer youve seen the indictments i mean there are 6 indictments 4 of them have to do with traffic 3 years like you for 99 and 2 perjury charges rounding proceedings in 2006 why do you think its these specific ones you think its because the fed the prosecution thinks they can get this stake i mean its like iron clad slam dunk. Well one reason that i think these particular charges are he has we have a new federal law that extends the the statute of. Patients 4 victims that are still alive and so of the victims that have come forward that have been involved in the litigation theyre still alive theyd be in late thirtys early fortys and it would be able to members of make a very credible as a victim the 2nd reason i think theres a lot that can be said for these particular charges there are certain prosecutors i know myself ive looked at these kind of questionably because they could have charged under a much harsher sentence given whats come forward but its not uncommon during a grand jury proceeding or an indictment before an indictment is not uncommon when charges are 1st lodged if those arent leaked to the media for them to try to strike a deal with somebody before or to strike a deal with somebody and i think in this case we might be you know a deal that was already previously struck with her and the indictment being proof of the u. S. Holding up their end of the bargain well you did just the program and one. Of the what it is youre feeling is it your feeling. That there were negotiations. Over the last year it seems to me maybe something with your gut feeling oh my god feeling is that there absolutely were and i think you know were not used to this in america a leak free investigation were really not used to our so our agencies now not having any leaks but apparently this was a leak free situation i think it was for many reasons one this is a woman who has multiple identities multiple names passports connections all over the world she could have easily escape certainly we saw headlines about Different Countries and states that she was then to think that shes right in the back on the New Hampshire a lot of this doesnt make any sense i do think that there was a background deal especially after what happened with jeffrey himself theyre not going to want anything to leak out or anything to be known about this so with all the people that are worried about what happened to her now i think the government has already got much of what they wanted from her and terms of striking a deal you know. Looking at the specific charges. It seems to me that they feel confident that they have enough that they will stick i mean will get a good at least that conviction on something it the same time this is kind of a its kind of pivoting away from so many other questions of so many of us have about this strange case because theyre open to a lot of multiple person there are multiple personalities people very well known very very well but by focusing very specifically on these charges it might not shed light on those issues and maybe im just speculating here that may be part of the process here that both sides agreed to go ahead an hour maybe i mean i think we are seeing a shift towards pretended to be honest i think theres a lot of talk now about presenter and his relationship with chill a and theres a lot of talk about that and we are seeing hints coming out of the u. K. And coming out of the media in the u. K. That just lame probably did have some sort of agreement in place and she has a clean already formulated and we see that a lot of thats being leaked from her friend from one of her friend a confidant who said that she spoke with joe lane about a month ago Laura Goldman spoke with such a lame will not turn over evidence or turn over any information on Prince Andrew because she values their relationship but but she did say that you lane did feel about a month ago that the road was coming to an end and the walls were closing i believe the direct quote is that she felt that the road was coming to a close so obviously we know for at least a month the better part of a month maybe 2 that there were that there was some kind of negotiation some kind of wheeling and dealing that was taking place in the background in order to work to come to where we are today if it didnt for i mean i just cant help to get the feeling that the prosecution just wants to get a conviction i mean its almost kind of like to wash their hands of the whole thing you know what i mean you know. It were the more we delved into this the case that they seem to have on the list so the sitting sex from a minor i mean its a beginning of the 1st decade of this century here i mean theres theres a cost of this involved in here theres a lot of murkiness of what they dio chaney and i just cant help but feel that you know you just want to get one conviction to be done with it because theres so many tens of worms that i think obviously a lot of people dont want to delve into but at the same time theyve made theyve made a promise that they will come against this some kind of conclusion here go ahead jeff. Its a good point and its a good question to be asking but there are a couple things in this case that i think actually it goes far beyond max well i think that the 1st thing is to see the department within the Southern District of new york the prosecutors within the d. O. J. That are actually working on this case is the public corruption unit its not the criminal unit sex trafficking Human Trafficking anything like that its a public corruption you know which means that this case goes far beyond even ms maxwell or abstain and into which Public Officials that there are and there are at least one public official that is involved that could include british royalty that could include any kind of Government Official or how this was involved so it is one point the 2nd are conspiracy charges its very very interesting that the d. O. J. Have made these conspiracy charges because federal conspiracy statutes state that anybody you dont even have to know the extent of the crimes themselves as long as there is a plan some sort of alleged plan and an overt act taken and further inside that plan it doesnt matter what the overt act is whether you flew a plane or. Something are set up a modeling thing or Something Else and then you can be charged with part of that same exact conspiracy so the conspiracy charge itself opens it up to multiple other people i do not think this will stop at her if it had stopped with her and it would have been a much more clear and distinct charge rather than conspiracy conspiracy leaves it open for the government to be able to put in new people and new evidence and you coconspirators well i mean oh it sounds like from what we just heard from jennifer there is potentially a huge drag i mean a lot of people get caught up into this but we have to remember that maxwells going to have her day in court and shes going to have her what she wants to get out in the in the public realm and her own defense here i think all of us following this very strange story. I have to assume i think correctly that she knows the names and dates and places and you know it considering it would be netflix. Series that id be one was watching it a lot of names have been dropped there ok and gives everyone jennifer just said when it comes the conspiracy here this is potentially really huge but why do i still get this really terrible feeling they dont want to keep it very very narrow that means theyre working colluding with. The defense or. Maxwell herself i mean it seems to me everybody will want to keep this narrow well i mean i hope that we get to hear from maxwell i think thats the fear that everyone has everybody tell me go ahead of me on this i need to get caught about that to keep it up its like well i mean you said it peter that the question that everyone has is are we going to hear from maxwell because we didnt hear from epstein thats for sure and thats left a big question mark hanging over everyones head about whats going on here with no one really even knows what happened to epstein we dont even know who this guy really was you match the net net flix documentary yet makes a lot of assumptions and a lot of speculations but we still dont really know who this guy was where he got his money what he was doing was he working for someone else was he working on his own was he part of a Government Intelligence Agency was backs while working for him or was he working for maxwell even maxwell has a very color colorful and checkered past as well her family is definitely an interesting thing to take a look at her father in particular so i mean i think your fear is everyones fear thats what makes this story so fascinating is its taking so many different twists and turns god i hope we hear from maxwell but are we going to i dont know no one knows i think that is the 1000000 dollar question are we going to hear from maxwell because migrate. And all of this peter is that we dont find out anything new we dont find out anything a deal gets made it all disappears and thats the last we hear of it but this is a big big network that im confident of this is a big network with a lot of very powerful people involved in this game that im very confident of your generator. Both of you created me on this and thats really good it shows your gauge here but isnt it a sad indictment on the Justice System that we all have great will we actually hear from her i mean i watched the indictment being announced lots are on television ok and that was the 1st thought in my mind is that she should ever make it into court and what are you know raise their hand and take the open what we hear from her because of what happened with whatever happened that jeffrey mc it is an indictment of the judicial system is that were now in a position we have to wonder if theyll even brought up. Created a case that will actually be tried. I dont think anybody blames you or anybody else i mean it is not. It doesnt say anything that nobody trusts the Justice System anymore because weve seen it year after year after year of cases fall through the cracks i mean yes we dont know what happens and jeffrey have seen i hope that one day well find something because everybody believes that what weve been told is not what happened. And people feel like things are being held from the now there are some factors there such as National Security concerns and things like that the you dont want being leaked out certainly maxwell had to deal with the d. O. J. Before this were glad that didnt leak out because who knows what they could have gotten in the meantime there you know where she was she wired in the last month where she was she alll all on this operation we dont know these things and so there are times when its ok you know that she was part of an immunity i mean she was unnamed that she was part of an immunity deal i mean. As part of discovery can we learn about. Immunity deal. Im not sure im going to madge and that we will not because of the contacts that she has if we might not learn about it because if were trying to restore so going back real quick to your point on how we dont trust the Justice System i mean epstein this wasnt the 1st time he had been indicted or gone before a jury he was let go under the Previous Administration and so weve seen it time and again i mean nobody knew who maxwell was unless you were part of the un our circle of people and high influencers that she ran around in her circles with none of us in the general public really knew who she was and still recently so they were able to keep her influence and everything that was going on with that scene under wraps i mean i dont remember hearing a lot about this so i think right now the Justice Department is in a tough position there been a lot of people they found out who were doing some pretty sketchy things here and theyre trying to keep this under wraps i do think im still trying to have a little bit of hope in this even if we dont youre Going Forward now even if we dont hear about the immunity deal you know who it is we go to were going to go to a short break after a short break and you can especially since day. One else seemed wrong but i will just dont know all. The world if you get to shape out this day become an advocate and in again because the trail. When so many find themselves worlds apart. Just to look for common ground. Time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability its very important its accelerating the transition to sustainable transport sustainability stay in her manner more equitable and sustainable well. They claim their production is completely harmless. Lovely. Companies want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away and this is something this must be going to mean and i mean look. You missed me didnt dont even. Understood when and. Welcome back to crossfire all things are considered im curious about remind you were discussing big Jeffrey Epstein saw. Ok lets go back to milwaukee lets talk about a potential defense here i mean what is see id be hearing and i suppose if you were going to be a good defense lawyer of maxwell shes going to pull a me too but she was the victim here i decide i mean as a female attorney how does the how do you feel about that kind of going. Thats going to be garbage and you know what there are a lot of oh lets just start out right now ok there are a lot of situations where a former victim might have partaken i mean the f. B. I. Investigators have a lot of terms for it which are a little too crass for t. V. Right now you know top top girl and bottom girl and things like that a lot of them were former victims i think were going to see some of those theres some names of already been circulating as maybe involved but but naxal herself and alex brought this up earlier you brought this up you know Robert Maxwell her father and is correct on this has a long history in intelligence for intelligence u. K. Intelligence different government teligent agencies i mean this woman has been around for a long time she is pictured on the throne of british royalty she is sitting there how do you get access to Something Like that without having your hands there i think i think she was pulling the strings that have seen i dont think a jury is going to buy that she was this former victim plus one of the victims themselves have come out saying that nasa was not only instrumental in getting her and bringing her but showed her how to do things and did that you know that goes far beyond what somebody would do and so i think i dont think a jury is going to buy that i dont think theyre going to care and lest we forget the jails dont take too kindly to people that do things to children and can you imagine a womens prison how theyre going to feel about that so i think maxwell has a lot of other concerns but a jury is not going to feel that in terms of a defense attorney position they can try to make that argument they can try to just go on the facts a regardless of your feelings this is this is the deal here that there are too many victims that have come out there remember her standing in the room and doing acts to these young girls herself. Got a sweetheart deal here. His lawyers. One of them in the strategy was this to discredit all of the alleged victims here in this day and age i think thats going to be a pretty rough course the tape here. Ok considering the the tender age of some of these girls here me. And again being very very narrow on these very specific issues here that is going to be a way to keep it under control here the thing is that i guess what we need to know is that if there were negotiations before the end and i were an ounce well birthday and if they fell apart why and i dont think anyones going to tell the tell us at any time so. Were not going to find that out and dershowitz is also undergoing a Defamation Case with Virginia Governor as well so hes hes also tied into this pretty pretty deeply i mean. You know peter that the whole thing is. We need to get justice on this we need to get some answers i said this during what was going on with epstein that if they dont get epstein and we dont understand exactly whats going on there is going to be hell to pay and sure enough we saw what happened with epstein and now everyone is now looking at maxwell and everyone is happy they got maxwell but theres still people at this very moment who are saying we have not seen her we have no photos did they really get her is this all one big intelligence reuss is she going to disappear again i mean we need to get some answers here i mean i think the me you know roger stone i mean they called c. N. N. In bands they had the swat team in the floodlights and everything you know look at it but this case. Were getting some reports that that this was this wasnt exactly the feds knocking on her door and her coming along understand from what were getting reports from from the New York Post and some other Mainstream Media that there was an operation to apprehend her there were a tro and there were you know 2030 feds they they had this whole staying going on and they got her now she didnt destroy any thing. But this big stack coming along with a phone call saying come to the office and turn yourself in either so theres still a lot of Unanswered Questions if they were working on some sort of plea deal and there was some negotiation going on you know you have to ask the question if this was going on then why did they have so many officers and and so many f. B. I. Agents to take or in another question i have peter is there was a lot of misinformation as to jolenes whereabouts where was this coming from theres a lot of articles saying that she was in brazil that she was in paris france just a week before we found out she was you know am sure we had credible sources quote a credible source saying she is in france she is in paris shes staying at an apartment 5 blocks down from jeffrey abstains apartment in france i mean everyone said ok thats where she is and then one week later lone behold shes in New Hampshire so you know were were speculating right now but we need to get some answers here if we dont get some answers very very afraid as to as to whats going to happen next the publics faith is a roading is eroding in the Justice System you know together particularly and i gave the example of roger stone and you know that he and the Justice Department want to make a big deal about that i mean i mean everyone knows my opinion i mean this whole prosecution against roger stone this is just a farce but i mean in the case of maxwell that this is something that we have heard a lot about learned a lot about. Theres a lot of accusations and accusations that are quite detailed of course we you know we have to be a presumption of innocence thats the whole point of the process here but i mean you would have thought after watching that press conference on friday that they would like to show a little bit of their handiwork if they had been not that im aware of ok i mean just like alex said here i mean dont you have the perp walk i mean handcuffs i mean one picture not you know and that brings me to alex acosta i mean and im not im not going after him ok but you know really the sweetheart deal that that epstein was given i mean really truly dreadful deal when it comes to justice i mean even the victims were he been informed about it and why i need to be convinced why there isnt going to be another house across this situation in this case convince me jennifer please. Im going to do my best here i dont think theres going to be another alice to cause a situation one acostas gone theres a new sheriff in town i think bill barr has shown himself to not only be a formidable adversary of criminals hes tried very hard despite media attempts in the u. S. But hes tried very hard to separate himself from any kind of political motivation but bill maher has done a good job of following the rule of law at that hearing to that end even if it hasnt hit all the headlines in the New York Times they have cleaned house in the d. O. J. You mention roger stone it is a many parts about that are a travesty of Justice System so is general Michael Flynn case his entire case was a complete travesty of the Justice System and i mean look at what happened there i mean you had the deal j. Itself saying you know what we were wrong oh by the way all those other prosecutors have been fired or left and were dropping these charges were now seeing whats going on yes there are some other questions people can ask about the f. B. I. s role in all that but the Justice Department itself i think there has been an effort to clean house i think there has been an effort to try to restore that i think thats why we havent seen anything but but bill barr is somebody that knows whats going on and he is somebody i believe that is going to take action and i think the fact that we havent seen the leaks i actually get more concerned when there are leaks to the New York Times the Washington Post all these mainstream outlets when then when there are not so yes we do have a lot of questions now but remember unlike in the acosta situation even if we dont know what happened epstein he was in prison and he was going to go away for life or what he did and maxwell has now been apprehended yes we havent seen that he has might be part of the clear range or whatever else whatever was leaked maybe some of these leaks are leaks or to preserve her life or her safety but but i do think were seeing a trajectory change yes its slow yes we have lost faith in the Justice Department specifically from the Previous Administration and some of the things we saw with stone and with Michael Flynn but i think were starting to see. Slow trajectory going in the right direction with a new sheriff in town with a clean house and with things that have not been leaked which he has lead to some questions but i do believe much sooner than we realize there are going to be fall of arrests because this is a conspiracy charge not trafficking not anything else it means there were Public Officials involved in this why and she knows Intelligence Community so well did she have videotapes was a blackmail operation was this a healthy way government decisions i mean public corruption puts that into question and so i think were going to start seeing some arrests coming out of this somewhat of an avalanche effect going to look at if i can stay with you here i mean when i look at you know i mean its from like you know you sort of like you know the 7 trafficking you know woman. Who is alleged to be part of what about all the other victims i mean jeffrey obscene apparently it wasnt a monster just for those 3 years ok what about the victims all of the victims or anyone that wants to. Get some kind of closure with this trial that its just like you know you for them but you know what about everybody else because the last question in my introduction is that will we ever get justice. Well heres the other thing and i am sorry to do this but im going to give a metaphor because it helps people to understand this so i often reference the movie taken when i was working with some trafficking organizations and things like that i found that taking on was a very good metaphor for that so in the movie taken the 1st one when hes going to try to find his daughter he goes through so many levels the kid who found her at the airport theres another group of people then this group of people and he finally gets to the guy with the mansion at the end it has a secret room an elevator where people are doing better get so that guy that guy seems to be the one that was the key to all of it setting everything up arranging everything and then of course the final purchase is the girl and then i answer so what i say about this id put maxwell in the thing of the rich american are the rich billionaire whos at the end there that had that big house and hes arranging all this stuff i thought macs. Well there what i think the government is doing right here now in terms of justice for the victims is not only getting this guy at the end cause thats the guy to get if you want to actually stop this from the other victims you get the max was you get the ones who are from train this but you also get everybody else down the level and everybody by every member is a multibillion dollar operation it is going to come out at some point how jeffrey absi not as many again as alex and we are speculating on this but nobody knows right now how this guy got his money but we do know factually that sex trafficking is a multitrillion dollar. Profit making enterprise throughout the world and so youre looking at billions and billions and billions of dollars they go into the trafficking and thats what we even know of not even black market money and so what theyre doing here and thats where i think the victims can have a little bit of hope is that getting this top person she has information on the purchasers because naxal has no job and epstein has no job and no resources if their finances if theyre payers if they fall to the wayside and so when you start getting the finances we start getting the big money behind this operation thats where it goes down and thats where you know its last 20 seconds or the irish knows everything about all 3 of us but they dont know how jeffrey absolutely got their money explain that to me last 20 seconds by prego they know that they dont peter we wanted to share it with us they go they go theres always a money trail but i agree with what jennifer said there are actually a lot of people as well as bats well who helped epstein to do what he did so im hoping for a lot more indictments and a lot more names to come out im not saying theyre as high in the network as maxwell but there are still a lot of people that the d. O. J. Can go after any should go after them because you know the war there are sure to hell should be paid if it doesnt happen you know one of a quite well i guess jennifer and i also want to thank our viewers for watching us your r. P. C. In it remember. You cannot be both with the yeah you want. Someone who is a sinner who comes here the search is going to be memphis mccomb give you more. You. Remember the just can stuff it up with if they get in your kill that oh. And how to cut is a very international community. Meeting yesterday the trick is only to think. Of this to the good guys who face this the still studies that need to be indeed. Those who push them of the world food system the brazils for their Nuclear Cooperation in antarctica is everything produced polluted with the forms of t. V. With the above 30. 5 they have evidence that to go back but i decided not to take physics life. With my gig and the few that. Its. It. Going to tell me i conceive to. The orangutang. Dont fins. To rain forest and even humankind. On