A series of new pathogens have heard the 20 percent and each one of those is tied into use changes or station thats being driven by local capital and now youre not biased because you had karuna virus you wrote the book before you got it but you contract a drone a virus what is a health care in the United States being like remembering of course of the United States has plenty of money when it wants to spend money. Well its Health Care United States is just another form of making profit so if you dont have the money then you dont get the Health Care Even under obamacare you have 28000000 people who are are on carver 24000000 more who are underinsured its not the basis for responding to a Global Pandemic the viruses certainly didnt get the business memo that they were supposed to cooperate with the profit system well they may have killed he may have killed 800000 americans but youre alive. I am gratefully but not by dint of the American Medical System i in essence was frozen out of the my Doctors Office and had to be diagnosed online by a Nurse Practitioner who neither saw either air or me and so to be sure that this is new want a back ground effect of neo liberal politics only response to coronavirus youre saying we need radical invasive change thats not. The lock downs that we experience in nato nations youre talking about its something else. Absolutely i think one of the things we do is we get so focused on the emergency responses where which are absolutely necessary including the lockdowns including whatever vaccines were able to develop though im not too hopeful about that but the problem is our focus on the emergency aspect of it moves us from a understanding or exploring the more structural issues that are driving the emergence of one deadly pathogen after another some point were going to have to come face to face and understand that our very mode of civilization is now driving the emergence of these deadly pathogens and we have to do foundationally break with that mode and develop a much more integrated relationship with earth and arent ologies and i want to explore some of those has its in a moment but youre claiming that political power shapes both the Infectious Diseases and the science is the study of the diseases. Thats right one of the things that scientists its an amazing thing im a scientist myself an evolutionary biologist but one unfortunately history of science is very much into graded with the merchants and history of capitalism in such a way that. Science has been used as a means of de coding nature but only in the context of whether or not to help somebody a profit at some point when were confronted with problems that dont bend in that direction science has difficulties with grasping and unpacking those phenomena and so we find ourselves in i think the pandemic the exact thing sample of this we find ourselves when confronted with problems that dont bend easily to a modification then we are in essence unable to respond in a way that deals with the problem so what are we supposed to take from say the british Prime Minister morris jones when he repeated the end his ministers repeatedly say we have full oohing the science is actually following a politicized neo liberal version of sons which is not the evidence mazed Scientific Method to joel oh thats right well science and capitalism have a way of pointing to each other for rationalizing their takes on things and so we have a situation where many scientists hired by the state or by companies are in essence putting models out that in essence support the system that brought about the pathogen in the 1st place. So obviously we see donald trump often flanked by Multinational Pharmaceutical Company and c. E. O. s of Big Companies but you in your book big firms make big flu you ironically do support donald trump in saying its the chinese flu or the wound flu because at the beginning in the book you say the w. H. O. Was wrong not to talk about the origin of influence in other pandemics or certainly in the chinese do you bear some responsibility for the emergence of multiple strains of influenza of a current a virus is but china isnt the only epicenter for diseases we have for instance its 5. 00 and 2. 00 the influenza avian flu and so they emerge here in the United States we have swine flu h one n one that actually did go pandemic in 2009 that emerged from outside mexico city we have ebola emerged out of west africa primarily out of kind of the neoliberal interventions that are all over for station and the spillover of the polar strains so certainly the china. China does bear some responsibility but this is a global problem is see if i put on a have a c. E. O. Of a big Agribusiness Company ok i might blame the Mining Companies for deforestation which as you show in the book is so intimately related with the spread of epidemics but id say your book talks about a big flume is that this corona virus is supposed to come from a small from maybe a wildlife market its completely different to agribusiness. Well i would say mining does have something to do with this. As well as logging in. And in addition to your business but as far as coronavirus goes its a little bit more complex but as. A culture large agriculture intensive operations push their way deeper into the for its it forces small holders to relocate and that also plunges into the local forests increasing the interfaces between small holders and wild animals that are o. O. S. For many of the new pathogen the other thing to understand is that the wild food trade where everyones pointing fingers that its not this kind of totally differentiated operation from big ag increasingly capital is flooding into the wild food sector and becoming more intense of it in such a way that more traditional large agriculture beginning to be modeled by the more wild food sector and so as both of those types of farming into the forests you have an increasing interface with wild animals and increasing spillover of these new pathogens so how are these interconnections exacerbated by something unprecedented in human civilization the ability to travel thus distances quickly were only just putting a quarantine here it britains amp whats what would you said to morris jones and about the fact that our Immediate Response here in britain was not to shut down the airports i think in the us you had ample its open to. Thats right well. The Global Travel network is. The most integrated network weve seen and in Human History someone can go from one side of the world to the other and. And a half day or so so its. Any pathogen they might be caried can move that way and thats the thing thats so shocking its the speed at which new pathogens might spill over from the deepest forest and make a way to a regional capital and then onto a plane and to the other side of the world in short time and were you know we despite the fact that weve left airports open we should have known that that was probably going to be the speed at which corona virus was going to make its way in the other direction of asia to the United States and get direction to europe. Because of the kind of insidious nature of the. Pathogen and its clinical course we just chose not to act and and here in the United States some of the studies have shown that the cove in 1000 was circulating in Washington State for 6 weeks before it was ultimately did detected as to be circulating among among people here well the numbers of dead are truly breathtaking in your country oversee more than 100000 as to the origin you theorize that the pathogen may have existed already and is deforestation that exposed it and allowed to escape. Well theres been a lot of work sincerest one that showed that there are multiple strains of coronaviruses in bat species across central and Southern China and they have been spilling over into local populations both human and animal. For since then if you keep rolling the dice at some point one of them makes its way across. Into some combinations of animals both wild animals and livestock and ultimately into the humans typically the labor that taking care of the livestock and then subsequently on its way to a local city most of those stars dont make it to human to human but if you want so while we do have one and of in all likelihood sars one and sars 2 will be followed by a sars 3 and you really think of the logik of new liberalism is that Companies Involved in deforestation and so forth. A 1000000000 dead is fine with them so focused on their own process to own the profits well i mean its really easy you just blame the virus or you blame the chinese or you blame smallholders for cutting into the forest. There is at this point its theyve got these Rapid Response teams Crisis Management packages and go out and all these outbreaks and make sure you continue to externalize the cost of intensive production so that everyone carries the cost and everyone carries the blame if you were to fold and the cost back onto the Company Balance sheets business would be and as we know it. More from us all the big farms make big flu after this break plus we asked the director general of Nigerias Center for Disease Control not to check way back was is when a country ravaged by previous epidemics that alone i. M. F. Structural adjustment programs appears to have dealt with coronavirus so much better than britain or the usa political coming over but to going on the ground. Listening to national will discover you know when youve been in the west thats only see it is possible to prevent you spew false and its new kind of scene where your morgue youre more your partner if youre going to run. A. Water source like you all but us lucifer mistletoe is just that im like im going to come to think of. It is not my achievement mr davies our 5 year plans were conceived. And carried out by the people themselves if alan would produce or even florek it with the ideas and. Can a film like this be probably be branded as crazy. How was the sentiment during the war the soviets were brave heroes resisting the nazis thats going to change of course after the war once the cold war begins. People think that hollywood is a free place but hollywood is a strictly defined on one side of the business and the other side is ideology. How would i define hollywood is they call it the dream manufacture which had been true but i think equally its a propaganda for. President Vladimir Putin in his own words tells us how he understands history and the Current International system also why everybody parent we hates john bolton as he laughs all the way to the bank. Welcome back im still with rob wallace author of big farms make big flu the w. H. O. Arguably has never been more in the headlines you give a very nuanced account in your latest book china has just given 2000000000 dollars donald trump appears to be withdrawing cooperation with w. H. O. Do you think may kill off the w h o well you know historically speaking these times of crises do have a way of killing off International Organizations we think of the league of nations where war won so many of these organizations are very particular and very conscious of the possibility that their fates are in the hands of not only outbreak but the nation states on which they depend for their finances and legitimacy in my view of there should be a w. H. O. But we think theyre in the middle. Being caught in something of a crossfire between now and in the United States my view the United States says some of the World Systems there is support it is on the far end of the end of that cycle of the cumulation capital being turned into money in other words. American based capitalists are in essence cashing out and so what was previously post world war 2 an exercise of political power making sure the capitalist system worked including cleaning up pandemics of capitalist own making around the world thats why c. D. C. Here was such an important part of responding to outbreaks worldwide well thats been rolled back in essence in a matter of months which is quite extraordinary the United States is basically in essence washed its hands of its responsibilities to run the global system of capitalism including beating up at democrats so i know on the other hand sees it seizing the opportunity its on its front and that cycle of accumulation its turning money into capital and its interested in building empire and Building Infrastructure including Public Health infrastructure which will allow it to accumulate capital as the as the new imperial power on the block as it were whether or not successful on that however its up in the air we are in deep Environmental Crisis and so were arriving at a stage where earth cannot support these kinds of cycles of accumulation is. Host of the Global Alliance of vaccines and immunization their strengths and gave a speech there bill gates gave a speech there we had the boss of it and goes. On the program and then she said that its no problem that these weston responses are linked to big from being too foundations like the Gates Foundation and then actually far from one. You are saying these as we would call it as many would call it new liberal capitalism philanthropists are doing their best to save millions of lives far from ignoring the risks of pandemics because of what they do for any individual. Philanthropists they might be indeed encouraged by good feelings and good intentions to actually use their money to help save people at the structural level however once we are in a position to ask those from whom they develop they got their money by virtue in essence engaging in some of the practices that. Are promoting the emergence of these pathogens in the 1st place i mean if youre depending on those people to intervene in a way to keep those packages from merging then were in some trouble because theres an interest in there on the one hand they are in favor of the of the practices that led to the emergence of these diseases even on the other hand theyre trying to use some of that money to intervening i dont think philanthropy apple isnt is the means by which were going to fundamentally change the way of living and life in our relationship with the earth and an ecology that that we can stop these pathogens from emerging in the 1st place if were in the business of just cleaning up after damming after another then and indeed i think we are in some trouble its highly unlikely that additional pathogens will be emerging were not going to have the 100 year delay that we have from 1901. And in less we make some foundational shifts in the very mode of civilization that the were operating under were going to be exposed to new pathogens and in the future finally just to one irony. Arguably some of those companies obviously helping in the contract thing of one of your biggest taxpayer funded industries the military what do you make of the fact that after Edward Snowden who sought refuge in moscow after revealing mass surveillance how that mass surveillance the telephone calls not being able to be used for track and trace for a pandemic threatening us all well i would not sure if i agree with that i think many countries that been using that in. The news for better and for worse but not the n. S. A. Cia program that was a real way snowden is that being used to save american lives i dont think it is i mean certainly not in terms of being deployed to help with endemic stuff i mean i dont i dont think there we would even consider the american response as anything organized at the National National level there isnt a National Program for response to coronavirus here its all been to fall down to the local and state levels in fact the federal government set off a black Market Competition between states for better waiters i would say i wouldnt quite classify it the u. S. Responses being. Even at the level of basic. You know there is no tracing other and some a little bit at the local level so if the n. S. A. Is involved in doing anything about coronaviruses we certainly dont know it or wallace thank you. Nigeria has been called the poverty capital of the world ravaged by i. M. F. Restructuring programs and epidemics 40 percent of its population of nearly 200000000 people live below the breadline and yet coronavirus deaths are exponentially worse in britain and the us. Say that in the u. K. s former west african colony joining me is the man leading the fight against come in 1000 there the director general of Nigerias Center for Disease Control chick with hack was it he joins me via skype from nigerias capital abuja thank you so much for coming on the show so we may have had about 60000 excess deaths here in britain with a population of 67000000 how come nigeria apparently has recorded less than fewer than 4500 deaths or so with 200000000 people i think 2 things i think it is very early to reach any conclusions around the burden both of infection disease and death because you know those are the time aspect influences the transmission and also influences but its you know what out across the globe across the world but there are also many thinks you know whether ever hurt you borrows is introduced into a population does that interaction with you not the virus the population of environment you know the depths of sadly to do it that our 3 kids go unique to nigeria. Proportion of that he didnt know what south africa india do i got so a good definition is something happening on the continent i dont know if so far thats limited the garden of debts that we would see you say its too early why didnt you stop all Contact Tracing systems in nigeria like we did here on the 12th of march. I have you know Contact Tracing is very much out of our response its part of the d. N. A. Of any Public Health response to our Infectious Disease outbreak well that you know we did hear though thats not a whole lot go up and i cant really speak about the response of the u. K. I could only speak about that in nigeria at you know were struggling to weed out resource constraints its a big complex country a Large Population and doctors really why would lock down spend you know to to enable their response but theres no other tool that we have now or that you know Contact Tracing it really that out work that we do in response to infection these outbreaks that i was last i you know monkeypox at all fortunately republic but the governor of that so weve really got out so street into this capacity to carry out this type of work across the country you see here in britain the media routinely says that the low death counts from the global south merely show that they may be lying about the statistics the Chinese Communist party invited you to woo hand what do you find there because china is always being accused of falsifying coronavirus statistics i understand you never went to the actual woo han lab or wildlife market that i didnt go to the lab but what my impression was that china is really other type we went i remember out the time we went. Through a very much already did the flight is done you know to implement shutdown successfully you have to have as much determination on resources to carry out you know truly a deployment of food resources but since Everything Else it takes to keep the population alive at active despite being shut out and you were doing got this is that i mean youre ready immediately you know we were going to struggle with Something Like this you know probably across the rest of the words. That was immediately not the policy for me and i would have led to results of the 1st bishop but the police had to prepare for our response our baby debates a mitigate the impact of this what you know the reality to be honest this is a top iris the toughest ive ever seen in my lifetime i think the stories of the most successful countries will go up at all this side of the end of the year where you stand by your Contact Tracing which as i say the British Government has said had to be destroyed that system in much theyve now reintroduced in quarantine which is only just begun in the past few days or so months after the pandemic was detected here in britain why did you decide to quarantine the u. K. Registered aircraft britain would never quarantine a nigerian aircraft you know i think were used to a world where most of that narrative has been effected to gird from the global south to the globe or not but the reality is that most of the infections in nigeria keep it from europe mostly from the u. K. Im not the only buy you get sick of the baby nigeria its coming back kind of trouble but it is to locations but ultimately so it was you know done as a Public Health measure all to basically you know the better that we have so many contradictions west struggling with this decision because egypt that has a big Economic Impact thats a good a big impact especially docket that also cost lives i got the end of the day if you remember it but outbreaks of west africa more people died from the consequences of the outbreak that struck the barras itself so we have to be very careful in judging that taking the big picture its a concentration you mention the Economic Impact money is seemingly no object here where we are paying 80 percent of wages of maybe great a proportion of this population here in britain its state funded the same there in nigeria because. I understand the i. M. F. Ok 3 and a half 1000000000. 00 for corona virus some suspicions about where all that money is going some labs have not opened 1. 00 what is that the role of the i. M. F. In this and i got to ask why dont does it going on strike that dissent p. P. Was better in nigeria than he has some reports suggest yeah i think it would if its impossible to really compare the economic realities and therefore be accurate economic might to respond to an outbreak like this but to the you cant idea were really out there freds level is not the need to do to do all of that so yes government has really tried to reprivatize its for not share resources for the response that sometimes theyve had to burrow its not an easy decision for i think up at def the. Depths of the opera great use of the resources especially starting with which is in my control of the national Public Health piece to wait brought up in front of the Puppetry Committee responsible for sharing appropriate to expect the judge will be put into very carefully the challenges that were stuck there probably very dopey in terms of the Public Health infrastructure i would not have to build back better for the future one thing is for sure is that there will be a lot of debits in the future one thing you for sure that countries i think that that each other much of ever because of trouble because of trade and we must Work Together to find solutions if not could bring us together because i would do a little long tab exists that its probably more dependent im not predicted to collaborate that area that we can operate that sufficient past director general thank you. Thank you very much thats it for the show will be back a wednesday 3 years of the day the World Health Organization claimed yemen to have a bombing by british made warplanes and weapons had over 200000 cases of cholera until that wash your hands join me on the ground and you troops out by the Instagram Twitter and facebook. Join me every thursday on the alex simon show and ill be speaking to guest of the world the politics sports business im showbusiness ill see if. I know no crowd. No shots no. Actual news dealt. With dr no 1st. Points your thirst for action. Hello and welcome to cross talk wrong things to consider im about president Vladimir Putin in his own words tells us how he understands history and the Current International system also why everybody apparently hes john bolton as he lives all the way to the back