To discuss this and more im joined by my guest Jason Nichols in l. The cut city is a professor of africanamerican studies and in new york we crossed to Margaret Kimberly she is the editor and senior columnist at the black gender report as well as the author of the book prejudicial black america and the president s all right cross up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok was 1st go to margaret here in my introduction i said that race always trumps class and if you look at Mainstream Media particularly the liberal media that is the message you get over and over and over again now were remarkably we actually are still in the middle of the pandemic. Hands of millions of people have lost their jobs weve seen acts of congress and the inaction of a president. The people that have the most money are protected and now we have this horrific death of george lloyd which i think it was very i was very pleased that there was a universal virtually universal reaction to this this is this was an atrocity but that seems so long ago when we think of the problem of the riots and continued protests and the actions of the president here but the messages are always on race and i think thats misguided because at the end of the day this is a class issue it always is a class of go ahead well you know in the end you as a race determine what class one is in we cant say theres no clean dividing line in this country and floyds death is something that happens every day to a black person by the way every day to 3 people in this country an average of 3 People Killed by the police and racism is a big part of that so this story begins with racism and racism thats practiced all the time mostly against black people but i think the reaction to it as you say they were both in was universal and i think the protests obviously were sparked by his killing but i think they are sustained and growing because of anger about many things in this country people are suffering people are struggling it is something that is almost for bill need to talk about its not an issue in politics the Corporate Media doesnt say anything about it we already had an economy that was not doing as well as we were told when we speak of jobs growth its low wage work its getting work its all its not anything that its not living wage were so people were already struggling and now more than 30000000 are under. Floyd as a result of the pandemic any shutdowns of the current so i think there are people who are angry about a lot and while the killing of this man was the spark and there would be im sure reaction across the country but it has sustained in small mentum because of the insecurity that people feel and the anger they have which is rarely. Yet i am here because i mean as we spoke right before this recording is that you know i think all across the country obviously this was a catalyst theres no doubt about that ok. But you know that the phrase i cant breathe and i think that that that that goes across race because i think what the media does in the Political Classes they dont want to talk about the structural deficiencies of the economy why they are there so many low paid jobs again for example again this is a direct this one to the democrats why are so many cities so badly run and run down ok and taking responsibility for that is well so does jason i guess im going to throw to you what i said in the introduction about systematic racism that does and does. Race always trump a class in american politics. Well again you know i would echo everything that m. R. Who just said i think she said a very eloquently in terms of race and class intersecting of course theres no question that there are poor white people and that you have outliers of a well to do black people but i would also add when we connected through the unrest that weve seen i dont know a black man and i know poor black people i know working class that are middle class and i know very well to do black people and i dont know one africanamerican man who doesnt have a story about him and countered with the police so some of this actually does transcend class. When i go out you know i generally im not wearing a shirt and tie and you know one would think i used to think you know i would age out of certain encounters with the police and you know in my early fortys and you see george ford was 46 walter scott was in his fiftys so again this is something that for black men seems to transcend age it seems to transcend class so i think a lot of people. You know when they saw george floyd they saw their fathers you know women you know washing say women i should say partners saw their partners their husbands in george floyd and we cant forget that these are things are happening to black women as well with Briana Taylor and you know many of the other cases of black women who have suffered at the hands of police so i think that while we can talk about the class impact of course theres been a serious impact more on working class communities and while we talk about george floyd we shouldnt necessarily think that these are the George Floyd Protests these george floyd was just the straw that broke the camels back if you look at what the police were doing in york city they were going around during this pandemic and in the village and in the wealthy white or areas they were handed out mass you know when you went you know north of 96th street into you know upper manhattan and into the rocks they were punching people in the face so i think a lot of people you know in arresting them so i think there was an explosion that was going to happen. And you know you can talk also you mention the democratic control of cities and i think that you know there is a valid point that you know some democrats have failed in their management of cities however and a lot of the cities mayors are blacks. To be frank its be very transparent but then in some cases even the Police Chiefs are black but what im saying is a lot of this is systemic and when you have a system it doesnt necessarily White Supremacy a systemic some dont necessarily its not about whos at the head of the system in addition the states like of course in the Baltimore Area where the state is run by a Republican City they really dont. Depend on the state when we dont get this to make races and we go to market right now and then if we get it if its so literally black and white a lot about broken americans participate in the political process in this systematic racism i mean you know Police Chiefs and counselors and all kinds of things like this and then they need they need then it becomes very political because and you have i think in the state of washington you know its basically its ok to write its ok to destroy property but not much and in a certain level i think all of us kind of agree with that but what if youre destroying property of a person of color that started a business thats their whole life its that you know thats it and then it goes right back to an economic issue go ahead yeah well this you know the Political Leadership though are established and even the black mayors the democrat here in new york city we have a new group bill de blasio liberal mayor. But they often go back on the same pro status meant troops when Something Like this happened so over the weekend too there were 2 incidents of Police Vehicles driving into a crowd of protesters and the blasio he backtracked later going to 1st he disbanded the police he said if youre tat least youre attacking everyone. He made statements in favor of them and the police hate him despite all his genuflecting thats another issue but most of these mayors are pro establishment and they work within the system that. The larger system that as we just talked about doesnt work for anybody so they and the do i believe republicans and democrats that also is not always not such a clean dividing line blasio has gotten in trouble for taking Campaign Money from anybody from everybody so we see in new york politicians like our mayor bill de blasio who markets him self as a liberal that was his whole Campaign Slogan the tale of 2 cities he was going to do better for working people and so forth he made a big deal about having an interracial family but when this these demonstrations started he turned into the establishment all the titian again very pro quo hes even after police broke into a crowd 2 instances of that he defended them then he had to backtrack now theres a curfew. Last night you had a curfew in new york you have to be inside by 888 pm or we can be arrested so a lot of these labels. Democratic politicians are not any thing that we can say is really let lets talk about labels here jason what is the difference between prosthetics and protesting and rioting and looting because i see the liberal media really and you know its. Basically peaceful protesting but then theres tons of footage of extreme violence and looting and destruction i mean it seems to me that theyre trying to invent language in a normal well in ways that basically everythings fine and everyones just doing what theyre doing now you cant ever get responsibility heads were not i think that there will definitely need to draw a distinction between destruction of property and bonds. The president named for example when his were remarks of him in 2. Altar cations and one where he said that this man had been beaten within an inch of his life. But neglects to say is that that man ran out into the middle of the street with a samurai sward you know and got beat up and you know while thats a tragic encounter its not this you know helpless person or this person just standing in front of the business he went out he engaged the protesters with a weapon and you know caught them you know the short end of the stick. I do think that there is a difference between you know uprising which is whenever there is an oppressive authoritarian force and people have a political response to that whether its organized or disorganized that is an uprising thats literally the definition of a dont rise when you look at whats happening for many people and thats not all of the people who are out there because there are some people who are doing this for their own purposes but the majority other people who are out there are i think even the ones who are engaging in destruction of property are carrying out an uprising ok. Theyre going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on race and class state with. Some people a con that protests across america right now bolshevik press revolution time make a reference to the workers uprising that we saw in the old in crail russia. And them weve got a new imperium here in america only start canceling their hand to work or something realize that wait a minute we dont want to live entertainers simply dont want to live under a monarchy samogon all passion bolshevik revolution which i thought only happening because. I think it was Government Official im president i dont have faith in the system. Ive got its over im just a broken system as thats a sign for people like who were abused. As well as are. Different people who are here for Different Reasons but also job loss a whole. Lot of people in philadelphia are on the up ballot 2 paychecks away from home lets say. Welcome back to cross up were all things are considered to mind you were discussing race and class. Mother let me go back to you i mean we were talking about in the 1st part of the program the difference when protesting in writing and there are so many different motives people may have i mean i dont think people were thinking and i hope people werent you mr lloyd when they were stealing night he shoots ok i hope thats not the case but i have i have to agree with jason when hes talking about uprising but then again that means something to different people is well ok and when i think one of the saddest things thats poisoned our politics is that all of us and i think the media does this do is we have preconceived ideas about other people about where theyre from way they look and this is kind of neat jerk reaction and you know what it is its fear on all sides and i think that is whats really sad here and i will not back away that this is a class issue because there is so. So much pressure on the middle class the middle class is been decimated and whats really sad and i think this is actually proven is that since the Civil Rights Movement so many people of color were able to move into the middle class and how back great to be the dream that we all have about middle class america because it was a middle class country its no longer a middle class country its an underclass and a very very small a small group of very powerful rich people that have congress in their pocket do you agree or disagree but lets absolutely true living wage work has been decimated in this country as something that black people depended upon to be able to buy homes and send their kids to college all of those markers that we think of as being middle class which is a kind of amorphous. Term that it makes you feel good president and makes you feel you thats your cause. But its the people at the top who you mentioned who are responsible for this destruction the finance capitalists decided that we didnt need to make anything in america i mean war. And so these manufacturing jobs disappeared their whole portions of this country and the midwesterner by birth and. Yes and every time i visit family in the midwest in ohio and other states it looks worse and worse and worse. And so now we have but its never acknowledged its never talked about politicians dont mention it because they rely on people who give them money they dont care the Corporate Media they dont care they are rather elite institutions they dont have any connections with working people they dont cover working people they need to have a labor beat anymore. So we have these people who are treated as if they dont exist and i also think that its not uncommon. And actually for a protest to begin over some very bright his issue people have well founded righteous indignation but it sets off a lot of emotions there are people who. You know the not cool heads for lack of a better term who will take advantage just because people are out into the streets and inspires. Positive a lot mostly positive i would say a lot of negative too but i think we have to remember this all started with great injustice and everyone should be working to stop this system that put 2000000 people in jail george fluid was arrested because of a 20. 00 bill that was allegedly counterfeit that puts people in jail and americans love to talk about human rights everywhere else in the world but you cant have 2000000 people in jail and talk about human rights abuses everywhere else so i think there has to be a discussion about all of this all of these things that we talk about when people are needs are acknowledged i think. And wimpy institutions like the police are kept in check i think so much of what weve been discussing can be you know jason finally looting abhorrence and were to any and doing to macys fine they got their insurance theyre all covered ok its the Small Businesses and its the moment that it and are breaking for me here but you know when people bring up the issue of looting i think about a different kind of looting ok i think about the looting of the middle class for 40 years ok and i really find it really rich when it comes to media figures and hollywood types of ok when they opine on what theyre basically less thoughts in my opinion they met not to any way its all hurt you signally but you know. The media it and i go back and say you know it its race race race race everythings races but you know it is it it hurts everyone when you have when you hollow out the middle class again the middle class in my mind is a place for all and thats where we find our great strength ok and when you follow that out it hurts everyone here and again the media covers this looting thats going on and we in this stimulus bailout just another huge transfer well upwards and now we have we basically have a civil war or a revolution against the working people from the top down do you agree with that or not so i agree with with many elements of what you said. First of all i do agree with something you said earlier and that is that middle class is kind of this you know and i maybe as margaret said it is more focus and may not even exist i think it was the playwright August Wilson who said if you cant quit your job today and live at the same standard of living for 2 years then your core and you know i know me you know i it you know im live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood but if i would have my Employment Today you know next month im scrambling you know to me and 3 months on you know probably out of my year so i think that there is. You know this this idea that theres this middle class and 80 percent of americans are 85 percent i believe of americans identify as middle class now you want to tell us there are a lot of poor people because we demonize poverty itself that you know that theyre like im poor you know there was. A middle class there was a joke by 4. The great comedian eddie murphy where he talked about everybody was poor neighborhood but if you can afford to get that ice cream you know to me. You know the other kids ruined your got ice cream your moms all welfare you know where they all lived in the same community you know i mean they are had pretty much the same Family Structure you know everybody was poor but because you couldnt afford ice cream that day you know all of a sudden you were somehow worse you know jason i lived in a Small Community outside of Denver Colorado and it was lily white but the same issue applied to same exact may apply right there margaret and mary ok in again you know losing your job poverty its a shameful element of American Culture here but you know you know if youre told you cant work you cant go to work you cant myrna living for yourself and your family then then again i criticize the structural deficiencies of the economy if youre telling people you cant go to work then you better you have to compensate them ok but no thats not what the 1200. 00 check or whatever you know thats going to pay off debt thats not going to put food on the table here up in the absence of that any interest in the in the concerns of the conditions of the middle class and working people i find abhorrence and theres nothing out there to change it because were all focused on race race ranks go ahead mark youre like well there are if. Youre lucky if you know and if the black people suffer the most because youre less likely to have Family Wealth had assets were more likely to spend upon a salary and if anything happens to that sound we we are in very very trouble and the fact that they do not believe the Political Class the people who go through the motions of opposing each other that they decided 1200. 00 was the maximum were any anyone in this country regardless of circumstance it tells you where we stand the minimum wage hasnt gone. For years and the democrats the 1st 2 years obama was in office and democrats controlled everything they didnt do anything about it either so we are living in this Dystopian Nightmare where we are told that our problems dont exist theyre not acknowledged theyre not talked about. People campaign for office pretending that they can hear. About us and then they wonder why only half the public bother to show up tomorrow and the state of california in the state of california at local politicians are almost all universally elected on health care for single payer and when they get the power i mean its the peoples republic of california for gods sake and they still wont do it they still did all they did to do it and then when they get power oh we dont have the money and that is the myth that has been exploded by this endemic and this crisis theres tons of money when you want something ok but if youre going to give people a step up across the board the middle class they just deny jason last 30 seconds go to you im sorry go well the only thing that i want to say is that its adding to what margaret just stated and that is that there is a difference between being american middle class and being black american middle class i think that those are 2 very different constructions for example in boston massachusetts the media Household Income or the median Household Net Worth is 2 147000. 00 for africanamericans in that same area its 8. 00 so again you see the stark difference where people are are worth you know what they have in their wallet versus people who have homes you know homeownership 40 percent for africanamericans were at a rather of a 50 year low right now 40 percent for africanamericans 70 percent. For a reason but almost out of time and im not going to contest anything you said but you know im really tired of rich white liberals saying well at least im not racist ok and then that this cleans their conscience addressing the structural economic problems of the United States and lets all the time we have your own frame are going to want to play chase into being on our program when i think our viewers are watching us here are scenic some remember. According to several sources felice in the United States kills from 2 to 4 people every day my. Head his hands. With sad eyes when. One of my being arrested for a response from enough. Is just their little world to establish they developed as us against them until. A long history of 2525 years as. I had to shoot someone calling. Me. There was a corruption the inside of the police i think. I know to know crowd. No shots. Actually helps me. Well lets try no risk to. Switch your thirst for actual. Dollars. Dollars. Dollars. On the dollar a dollar heres what i wasnt doing. When we got carried over here we care the music with us. We are here we were dragged here. By you looking to get rid of those who are not go away who will not die quietly. Real the heart of what we do is the true. Diabetics tired of this is the kaiser report so much to report on so much epic so much going on in the world today america is on fire the worlds on fire of the global insurrection against back iraq to personally but tell me about it for years now its happening all over the world. Give me your tired your poor your huddled masses yearning to breathe free the wretched refuse of your teeming shores where is that home come from selves really famous words of wrong is from the statue of liberty at the base that your liberty was given to america as a gift by france madam liberty it is you know the United States was founded on the principles of the and white men happened in france and in scotland but i thought this image of. Lady liberty of the statue of liberty in this headline that i want to turn to from the daily mail trumps has new york has been lost to thaw and low life scum after looters ransacked 5th avenue and curfew is brought forward from 11 pm to 8 pm until end of week but cuomo and of last year still refuse to call in the National Guard and as you can see there some looters on the front page and weve talked about the looters at the top from the very beginning the trillions and trillions of dollars being printed in the cant tell you in effect but heres lady liberty right there on the ground trinkets probably made in china sold in times square and just as quite a fitting image for the rest of the stories we have to cover max oh absolutely the poet resonates with a double entendre with deep meaning or with echoes of the past and people