To discuss this and more im joined by my guest the media bob in moscow he is a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london we crossed alexander material is a writer on Legal Affairs as well as editor in chief of the direct com gentlemen crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciate it ok lets 1st go to alexander mackerras in london i suppose its been long coming the murmurings have been out there but it has taken this pandemic for an all out at least media arms on china. And of course its also played into the election cycle in the United States and i mean literally looking at the latest the media and their view of all of this on one hand im not completely surprised because while somebody said blame for this pandemic which of course is the subject for many other programs. However in looking at the criticism for people there with low octane banking in my unit we. First and foremost my company or the secretary of state which International Intelligence agencies do not agree with is assessed and but again we. What i find really remarkable or a remarkable opening on how you want to approach this what is the strategy because i dont see what go ahead and i think there is there is no strategy what has happened is exactly as you say the spinners on to bali and under the surface of the americans all that 62 wars charlie now which has been building up through the very long time china has become increasingly rich has become increasingly powerful economy by many measures has now supastar to the United States the 1st time thats happened to the United States since the 870 s. When apes across britain is becoming head of the United States and there is a areas of technology and his political influence has been growing so its not surprising that this is creating problems for people in the United States especially given the overall reigning sense of importance the United States gives theory it sells so its not surprising that has been bubbling up for a long long time this sort of seeding of animus or hostility towards china has but what is happens is that when this pandemic all of this is 1st so this this in an extraordinary hangry any temperate way and you see the media the political establishment theyre all for you know shouting suddenly asked china but they have no real plan they have they sort of militarized their approaches sat talking wildly about cutting economic lakes but theyre not really coming up with anything. That remote. Constitutes a plaid possibly because a plant is not to be found exactly you know david we have all this and many of our viewers to it isnt this the reemergence of china because thats how they define and its not been you know be a rising power its the re emerging china after 150 years of humiliation primarily at the hands of the west including russia. And now just when they get up to the top of their game suddenly the only in the United States that have made a lot of money investing in china a lot of money they brought all the jobs there china didnt steal one job from the United States the jobs were taken away from the United States and factories were shuttered but it is you know how exactly curious is already alluded to is there we talk theres even talk of a military response it seems to me that this is a 20th century mindset maybe even a 19th century mindset because the real front tier of competition is research and development and that is one area that china has pushed very hard for and that is giving them the cutting edge when you talk military youre speaking from weakness thats my opinion because it shows you dont have a strategy china is already been surrounded by american bases it is already being. Being contained in many ways particularly in a military way so i think that the tool box is empty or are they just dont know how to solve their own temper tantrum about what is going on particularly when the Economic Situation primarily in the United States is very unclear as the pandemic abates go ahead. Well youre right that if your minds are normal length of a century or the 19th century it means reminds more than darkest ages or the way jacks entry of course what happens is basically it was accusing biden or being a cheneys agent and by then is it years of drawing board being a russian agent doesnt it remind your something doesnt of you mind you or the worst year thought the story to union in the soviet union at least you know understudy and there was just one group that was demonized at the time now we have 2 groups demonised at the time you know in the United States and what made me a laugh especially at michael r. With tears in my eyes was basically an article in that when dick magazine by an apple wall where she rolled that their wallet is all off in the trunk and she wants the world to be serious about trumps all she wants your card to basically. If you want your real current economic ties to china well that would be real lunacy because what we have now is rhetorical willesee and their real current economic ties with china would be real but we know how that works sure you can will need external once you have this paranoia you know why then is a chinese agent trump is a russian agent and then you have a very bad quansah grants in the case of russia this is there are no ranks arms control in the case of china is there no International Trade ok maybe you know alex it is but this is a good Movie Theater isnt it i mean cutting ties with china i mean anyone that has 2 brain cells to rub together knows you cant do that decoupling is not really an option i mean if that is going to be the option if there is some kind of united front behind it which i. Can see the bad air her happening after 40 years of a couple linked. You know it would be the end of the reaction to this here is that this is a good book eater because its talking about something that is a realist you cannot cut these ties because International Trade would collapse more than it has already and and that again this kind of defaults to a military option which of course is ridiculous on its face i mean what are they going to do build and the u. S. Going to do build more Aircraft Carriers you know how easy it is the same burma things 100000. 00 missile and you can take out a multibillion dollar Aircraft Carrier again where is the thinking here or as i think we probably all agreed there isnt much thinking here this is just a kneejerk response its not just a kneejerk response and unrealistic it is fantastic and hes dangerous it is a fantastic idea that you can cut all china from the World Economy china is a set by many metrics now the biggest the biggest industrial is the worlds biggest but trading endurable goods the idea that you can simply cut all that all around the World Economy and steam all has it as you know as if that could just be done it is just as i said completely childish is it again coming back to what you said a proper 20th century its the mindset of the 1960 s. When the soviet union did operate within its own economic world and the United States operate in its own economic world and there was very little overlap between zaxxon yes you could say you could draw up the cons of various and you could work on all those kind of lines with china exactly as impossible and even contemplate the other direction of a arms race with China Building at carriers. Hasnt begun just to base now the United States has a big big to Ship Building Industries in the United States. What it was thought is that they must be clear what how did they get how did the u. S. And china vine themselves in this situation that the chinese somehow made the United States destroy its own Industrial Base for 6 to do so i mean of course it has been this rhetorical we could keep going you know it it and i think what happened was back in the 98790 s. American companies decided that it would make much more sense for their profits of late to pay their factories in china where costs production costs went up and to close them in the United States when they were much higher and of course that was at an american decision it was not ultimately a chinese one the chinese could not take americas Industrial Base from the United States it needed americans to make that decision and i can very well remember back in the 1990 s. All kinds of people many of the same people were talking now about china vetoed stating americas ideas probably race they were they were praying about it they were saying you know we dont really need to think that challenger is our competitor because we run mostly this economy because most of self is there are american theyre american and so of course that has proved completely wrong in many ways because of course the chinese demand that their every color meet in their own fashion but its ridiculous to blame the United States for americas mistakes but the mckinsey view of the world here and now everybody likes these things here but you know theyre relatively cheap because they were made in china not in the United States ok thats up to the mail its almost finished up here. Lets listen lets pose the most obvious question here in your mind is china a threat to the United States you know what i used the word threat you can define the word or however you wish him. Well china is lot of threat to the United States because cheney is are acting responsibly and they invested a lot of line you know the American Security us and they have x. Generationally then i did states their government that is the real threat to them in their states because i have as we have seen with a score. At the dam in this state now has enormous power this power of the state in all the world now is much bigger than the power of the soviet union or its citizens i mean we have seen that the state going to local the state can isolate you from Public Transportation this state can shut down all Small Businesses for weeks sometimes months so when you say its impossible to cut off china well unfortunately you do sports symbol and thats why it is so dangerous and thats why i do all day so important because if if there is an economic war against china it will be it will not be a war we can American Economy interest it will be i do all we did on a rope and you know it and i did not notice dollar any one of you what about American Consumers thats the reason why this all happened because americans do more like she starts now than rigorous last 15 seconds here china needs to be punished what is that range of heat in your mind it sounds very colonial to me go here shes a great 88 shes completely can learn to answer your previous question china is no threat to the United States there are no me trees frets to secure not extents certainly not from china and china recent starting wars all over the place as well now but i dont we have to go to our breaking up about heartbreak well continue our discussion on some real news day with our. Chose seemed wrong. But old rules just dont. Mean you get to shape out just because get educated and engage with equals betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart. She says to look for common ground. You cannot be both with the yeah youre right. Welcome back to crossfire where all Things Considered im teetotal about remind you were discussing some real menace. Ok its going to change gears here over the last week its been getting murmurings for the last couple of weeks but its finally happened the United States is deciding to withdraw from the open skies agreement a lot of people may have not heard about this is a very important builder of arms control that we saw negotiated the end of the last century we can talk about i know we can talk about the new start agreement that is. To be a ballot in the beginning of next year so talk about open skies and couch it in the importance of arms control something that were really were losing to the detriment of the entire world overhead bin. Well basically the open skies agreement was signed by russia and its western partners i think 3534 countries in general it was signed in 1902 by him didnt start off the reagan until 2002. Him alone of course it would be very useful for the west because they would basically mourning then military action in chechnya and in general of course russia is more vulnerable to open skies agreement you know because we rely on our our own territory to defend our country we dont have bases next to the United States on next door but again show a nurse or a c. In western europe so ways to clear what happened was there there are these agreements unit everyone including Ukraine Ukraine is against the United States even that agreement because then they wont be able to fly or where there are you know the russian. Military units in western russia not blame game i mean we didnt really need to stress or abuse this is like what we call a confidence Building Measure correct absolutely you know and this is something that not all of the people understand the information that you get from these flights it is available to everyone you have to share it with all but disappeared seemed a dream and then that camera sat sealed by inspectors here that controlled by inspect the in the country where you where you are making your money for and why. So its a quantum building met measure and the reasons which share trump and they all provide that are ludicrous you know they said that russia does not allow lives or where its a region in cali in grad formally east prussia and all of them want to with georgia well the last time the United States had this wide was march in march this year they u. S. Planes and nato planes. You all were running aground mourning during their miters situation there with the border with georgia will remember saakashvili attacked russian peacekeepers in 2008 and so say that you know there was a real war there might be even even with this you know this problem was negotiate all this is not something that just russians see George SchultzWilliam Perry former u. S. Defense secretary and sam nunn they wrote several articles arguing for the present nation and they remain and they all 3 of them said all 3 of them wrote that this problem was negotiated with russia it could be a sort. But orbit it drawn by the barrow are held down on destroying all of the arms control so i unfortunately you know the e. U. Says that they are against it but we know from the experience with the i am there that the e. U. May. Object in the beginning and them do it really not and the. President broke germany in the beginning and then there was a communique ever on the Foreign Ministers obey your subordinate them arrogant position all night and now im afraid the same story make up until that opens. You know alex and i hope i find these are very tragic but again all very predictable john bolton isnt in the white house but bolton is and remains when what is this mantra to dismantle all arms control because. All of us are more or less the same age on this channel i mean these were all harold is as well as breakthroughs and going down the path of nonproliferation these these were milestones need these were celebrated and now as time passes and bit cold war rivalry of the 20th century is moving further and further in the past people dont understand it nonpolitical issues if it is important now as it ever was what how do you explain i think one of the recent is happening is because the United States has become increasingly up in secure about its and military position and as a result its lashing out and one of the ways its lashing out shes going strong and mean these traces can i say the open sky street he was 1st proposed but the United States in the 19 fifties and then the i. M. F. Treaty the respect that is based on proposals made by wrong break in the 1980 s. The a. B. M. Treaty that was scrapped was based on proposals made by the United States in the 1960 s. So. All of these traces initially the United States. Because of that song the United States or itself has been rivalry with the soviet union even wanted some build confidence when the soviet union had those confidence Building Measures to materially time bind and the basis for ending the cold war that was the. Indispensable foundation that foundation is being destroyed and their full weight come moving back into a situation where International Tensions are already weve already talked about the possibility of when you cope well with china in the 1st segment of all progress this is very dangerous as is most alarming thing to me of all is all of this is happening and western public seems to be completely oblivious to it so well and the western legacy media writing always discussing will do it is not smart and clever enough they are exactly quite right these treaties were celebrates it and i know that they scratched and its as if nobody cares this is easy credit be dangerous it is incredibly dangerous take it is more he needs to be dangerous in my opinion than the Climate Change issues that we hear so much about because. These this weight down of ons control is the kind of thing that could lead to a spiraling of International Tensions as we have not seen since then and that was the whole purpose of having them exactly theres a are here and even if i find it really quite remarkable that the lead to arms negotiator be United States i think its buildings will lean much from her lips in the persons name correctly it is said in last few days that they. I dont want to have an arms race but if necessary we will outspend the chinese and the russians i mean what kind of lunacy is this ok i mean here we have a global we have a certainly a global recession maybe a depression here the debt efforts are being blown all over the place particularly in the United States and they have achieved arms control they go and let me repeat it the arms control negotiator person who wouldnt want to have arms control saying that you know we could outspend the chinese and the russians again rhetoric from the 1960 s. And 1970 s. And even in the eightys there and let me add to that let me just add that isnt there are voices in the American Administration talking about and in the Nuclear Test Ban i mean when i read that i my job at the floor i mean whats the why i mean one of the theres a global consensus you do that you dont do that or very rarely and then you would have to explain why and how thats being thrown absolute weve already mentioned the entire a ray of arms control it existed at the beginning of the century there are holes completely gone he didnt head around that more or testing go ahead tim. Well there is some merry way of battle or just behind it all the lads. Are sticks to the agreement when technologically it is and want to just wear them to stick to the remains so as alexander rightly said. You know the 1960 s. There are now this days didnt have a. T. M. Acknowledge it and they really stick this out to protect them so they suggested these a. B. M. Treaty which open war the soviet union and theyre like the states do you know this balance or theory right and they scrapped that then 2001 when it appeared new technology would protect the United States wrong markram espouse wrong russia star wars to go at a yes or same story now a lot of the reasons why the orbital skies agreement is been scrambled. The United States is because they havent you said that i know would you so they dont need police do to control russia. They dont care about quote that dont say dont care about Chrissy Cross city so there is this is a very dangerous logic i want to stick to the agreements that if you know what you can hear a good mind to just do me and the same story where there they say year by trump that the United States can resume Nuclear Testing for the 1st time since 1902. Me remind you that the organ skies agreement was signed in 1902 right after the end or the cold war. When the orders guys agreement was negotiated nor one could imagine that cutting grass region would be an extract that it would be surrounded by 2 conscious unfortunately all during the course russia paul and the lithuania at that time yesterday and was still a part of the soviet union run open skies. So these people if they act. On something that is to know what to play and by yes with them and they completely it is we got history if forget what happened just 2 or 3 years ago you know when they see you know what business has russia to do in ukraine they discard their 300 at least 300 actually 400 years or so history the same story with open skies and kind of you know grab they just forget what what what was there just do it when youre there you want to get the man they just simply dont know because they dont take any ever nuge on to me here is you know you have one minute left here one of the think that this is an opportunity ok there is being lost we have. Well the west is ratcheting up tensions with china now it was an arms control regime was one thing that you know you would always there to side. Adversaries would come together and because it was their Mutual Benefit this is the time to bring china in you start and you know who she ratcheting down these tensions with theyre doing obviously the exact opposite go ahead and explain that i mean this idea that you can somehow outspend the chinese and the russians both sites only do so on mass producing presumably incredibly dangerous weapons well well in the way also owns a mali the whole concept of Nuclear NonproliferationNuclear Nonproliferation. A major house who wants you. Know a crazy you know to literally write it up all the time weve had you have got to let you know one of the many thanks to my guest in london and here and most i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r. G. P. So you next time remember. About. The day or thinks. We dared to ask. We go to work so straight home for. The president s press conference from the new state Department Auditorium march 23rd 1961. I want to make a brief statement about laos. It is i think important d for all americans. To understand this difficult and potentially dangerous problem. These 3 maps show the area of effective communist domination as it was last august and from december 20th now to the present day or the end of march the communist control a much wider section of the country. The position of this administration has been carefully considered. And we have sought to make it just as clear as we know how to the governments concern 1st we strongly and undeservedly support the goals of a neutral and independent layo. To no outside. Group of powers threatening no one and free from any government and. My fellow americans they are far away from america but the world and. The security of Southeast Asia will be in danger if laos loses its neutral independence i want to make it clear to the American People and all the world that all we want in layoffs. And. That you and i want to. Get through. Today. I mean