To discuss this and more im joined by my guest to me bob in moscow he is a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london we crossed alexander material is a writer on Legal Affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran com telling us up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciate it ok lets 1st go to alexander mackerras in london i suppose its been long coming the murmurings have been out there but it has taken this pandemic for an all out at least media. On china. And of course its also played into the election cycle in the United States and i mean literally looking at the latest the media and their view will be all of this on one hand im not completely surprised because while somebody said blame for this pandemic which of course is the subject for many other programs however in looking. Big criticism for people with low octane thinking in my opinion it wastes. First and foremost like ok your secretary of state which International Intelligence agency you do not agree with is assess and begin with. What i find really remarkable or a remarkable of putting on how you want to approach this what is the strategy because i dont see what go ahead and i think there is there is no strategy what has happened is exactly as you say the spinners on to bali and under the surface of the american all that 62 wars charlie now which has been building up through the very long time china has become increasingly rich has become increasingly powerful economy by many measures has now supastar to the United States the 1st time thats happened to the United States since the 870 s. When apes across britain is becoming head of the United States and there is a areas of technology and his political influence has been growing so its not surprising that this is creating problems for people in the United States especially given the overall reigning sense of importance the United States gives syria it sells so its also tries and has been bubbling up for a long long time on this sort of ceding of animus or hostility towards china has but what is happens is that when this pandemic all of this is 1st so this this in an extraordinary hangry any temperate way and you see the media the political establishment theyre all for you know just shouting suddenly asked china but they have no real plan they have they sort of militarized their approaches sat talking wildly about cutting economic lakes but theyre not really coming up with anything that remotely. Constitutes clad possibly because a plan is not to be found exactly you know demon we have all this and many of our viewers to it isnt this the reemergence of china because thats how they define and its not been you know be a rising power its the re emerging china after 150 years of humiliation primarily at the hands of the west including russia. And now just when they get up to the top of their game suddenly the only person the United States that have made a lot of money by investing in china a lot of money they brought all the jobs there china didnt steal one job from the United States the jobs were taken away from the United States and factories were shuttered but it is or how exactly curious is already alluded to is there we talk theres even talk of a military response it seems to me that this is a 20th century mindset maybe even a 19th century mindset because the real front tier of competition is research and development and that is one area that china has pushed very hard for and that is giving them the cutting edge when you talk military youre speaking from weakness thats my opinion because it shows you dont have a strategy china is already been surrounded by american bases it is already being. Being contained in many ways particularly in a military way so i think that the tool box is empty or are they just dont know how to solve their own temper tantrum about what is going on particularly when the Economic Situation primarily in the United States is very unclear as the pandemic abates go ahead. Well youre right that if your minds are normal range of a century or the 19th century it means reminds more than darkest ages or the way jeffs entry of course what happens is basically trump is accusing biden or been a cheneys agent and by then is it years of drawing board being a russian agent doesnt it remind your something doesnt of you mind your the warst year thought the story too young in the soviet union at least you know under study and there were just one group that was demonized at the time now we have 2 groups demonised at the time you know in the United States and what made me a laugh especially at michael r. With tears in my eyes was basically an article you know that when dick madison buy an apple ball when sure all that their wallet is all off in the trunk and she wants the world to be serious about trumps all she wants your card to basically. If you want your real current economic ties to china well that would be real lunacy because what we are now is rhetorical willesee and their real cargo economic ties with china would be a real hoot but we know how that works sure you can will need extended months you have this paranoia you know all by them is a chinese agent trump is a russian agent and then you have very bad quansah grants in the case of russia this is there are no rocks arms control in the case of china is there no International Trade ok maybe you know alex it is but this is a good Movie Theater isnt it i mean cutting ties with china i mean anyone that has 2 brain cells to rub together knows you cant do that because pulling is not really an option i mean if that is going to be the option if there is some kind of united front behind it which i. Can see the bad ever happening after 40 years of a couple linked. You know it would be the end of the reaction to this here is that this is a good book even better because its talking about something that is unrealistic you cannot cut these ties because International Trade would collapse more than it has already and and that again this kind of defaults to a military option which of course is ridiculous on its face i mean what are they going to do build it be us going to do build more Aircraft Carriers you know how easy this is the same berman thinks 100000. 00 missile and you can take out a multibillion dollar Aircraft Carrier again where is the thinking here or as i think we probably all agreed there isnt much thinking here this is just a kneejerk response its not just a kneejerk response and unrealistic it is fantastic and hes dangerous it is a fantastic idea that you can cut all china from the World Economy china is a set by many metrics now the biggest the biggest industrial is the worlds biggest but trade. Goods the idea that you can simply cut all that all around the World Economy and steam all has it as you know as if that could just be done it is just as i said completely charlie is again coming back to what you said probably 20th century its the mindset of the 1960 s. When the soviet union did operate we need certain economic world and the United States operate in its own economic world and there was very little overlap between the 2 zacks times yes you could say you could draw up all kinds of barry is and you could work on all those kind of lines which china has acces impossible and even at close of play the on direction of a arms race with China Building at carriers child. Thank you can just to base now the United States has a big big to Ship Building Industries in the United States. What it was thought is that they must be clear what how did they get how did the u. S. And china vine themselves in this situation that the chinese somehow make the United States destroy its own Industrial Base for since they do so i mean of course it has been this rhetorical we could keep going you know it it and i think what happened was back in the 98790 s. American companies decided that it would make much more sense for that and profit simply to tell their factories in china where costs production costs went up and to close them in the United States when they were much higher and of course that was at an american decision it was not ultimately a chinese one the chinese could not take americas Industrial Base from the United States it needed americans to make that decision and i can very well remember back in the 1990 s. All kinds of people many of the same people were talking now about china vetoed ceding americas ideas probably race they were they were praying about it they were saying you know we dont really need to think that child there is a competitor because we run mostly this economy because most of self is there are american theyre american so of course that has proved completely wrong leaving many ways because of course the chinese demand that theyre any color meet in their own fashion but its ridiculous to blame the chinese for americas mistakes but the mckinsey view of the world here and now everybody likes these things here but you know theyre relatively cheap because theyre made in china not in the United States ok thats up to email its almost initials up here. Lets listen lets pose the most obvious question here in your mind is china a threat to the United States you know when i use the word threat you can define the word or however you wish to have him. Well china is lot of threat to the United States because cheney is are acting responsibly and they invested a lot of line in you know the American Security is and they have f. Generationally the United States their government that is the real threat for the next states because i have as we have seen with these core read the damage this state now has enormous power this power of the state in all the world now is much bigger than the power of the soviet union or its citizens i mean we have seen that the state going to local the state can isolate you from Public Transportation this state can shut down all Small Businesses for weeks sometimes months so when you say its impossible to cut all china well unfortunately it is possible and thats why it is so dangerous and thats why your disorder important because if if there is an economic war against china it will be it will not be a war we can American Economy interest it will be i do always down a rope and you know it in a couple of just go in if one of you what about American Consumers thats the reason why this all happened because americans zoomers like she stuff how the rigorous last 15 seconds here china needs to be punished what is that range of beauty to it in your mind it sounds very colonial to me go here shes a great 88 shes completely can learn to answer your previous question china is no threat to the United States there are no major trees threats to the United States certainly not from china and china recent starting wars all over the place as well now by gentlemen we have to go to our breaking out about heart break well continue our discussion on some real news day with our. When i was told some seemed wrong all right old quotes just dont call. Me old yet to shape our disdain to come to educate and in detroit because betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. Oz no team no crow. No shots. Back shoes belts. Well strap no 1st to. Point your thirst for action. Tough and finding another one of the highest in mcallen swayer both of us who. Ballack itself moved to get on the plaza this way got to dog so hard luck the thief on the other decided this move the work of a coward and i dont mean to start them if. This is the only thing that we do is music because everybody fights aim is to lose weight. The floor lou comes off the feet look around as well chris woody allen you have called the evil adults of the payment on the. What i seek is this is the funds that is all come food stuffs. Welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered about remind you were discussing some real news. Ok lets go to change gears here over the last we have been getting murmurings for the last couple of weeks but its finally happened the United States is deciding to withdraw from the open skies agreement a lot of people may have not heard about this is a very important bill or of arms control that we saw negotiated the end of the last century we can talk about i know we can talk about the new start agreement that is. To be a ballot in the beginning of next year so talk about open skies and couch it in the importance of arms control something that were really in were losing to the detriment of the entire world. Well basically the open skies agreement was signed by russia and its western partners i think 3534 countries in general it was signed in 1902 and by him didnt start or reagan until 2002. Him alone of course it would be larry useful for the west because they would basically morning then military action in chechnya and in general of course russia is more vulnerable to open skies agreement you know because we rely on our our own territory to defend our country we dont have bases next to the United States on next door but again show a nurse or receive in western europe so ways to clear what happened was there there are these agreements unit everyone including Ukraine Ukraine is against the United States even that agreement because then they will be able to fly or were there you know the russian. Military units in western russia not blame game here i mean we didnt really need to stress or abuse this is like what we call a confidence Building Measure correct absolutely and this is something that not all of the people understand the information that you get from these flights it is available to everyone you have to share it with all because it been seen they dream and then that camera sat sealed by inspectors here that controlled by inspect the in the country where you where you are making your money for and why. So its a quantum building met measure and the reasons which trump and bunker hill provided are on ludicrous you know they said that russia does not allow lives or where its a region in cali in grad formally east prussia and all of them or with georgia well the last time the United States had this wide was march in march this year they u. S. Planes and nato planes. Who all were mourning during their miters situation there with the border with georgia will remember saakashvili tapped the russian peacekeepers in 2000 aid and so say though there was a real war there might be even even with this you know this problem was negotiate this is not something that just russians see George SchultzWilliam Perry cuomo u. S. Defense secretary and sam nunn they wrote several articles argument for the present nation of the reman and they all 3 of them said all 3 of them are all that this problem was negotiated with russia it could be assault but obviously trump and there are hell bound on destroying all the arms control so i unfortunately you know the e. U. It says that theyre against him but we know from the experience with the eye and there that the e. U. May. Object in the beginning and them dont really know and i think the president from germany at the beginning and then there was a can communicate from the foreign minister so maybe youre supporting them and you can position i am that im afraid the same story make up until that opens. You know its a i think theres a very tragic but again all very predictable john bolton isnt in the white house that bolton is and remains when what is this mantra to dismantle on control because. All of us are more or less the same age on this channel i mean these were all herald this is what is breakthroughs and going down the path of nonproliferation these are milestones need these were celebrated and now as time passes and the cold war rivalry of the 20th century is moving further and further in the past people dont understand that nonpolitical politician is if it is important now as it ever was. What how do you explain i think one of the recent is happening is because the United States has become increasingly up in secure about its and military position and as a result its lashing out and one of the ways its lashing out is going straight mean these traces can i say the open sky st he was 1st proposed what the United States in the 1950 s. And then the i. N. F. Treaty that was where it was recently scrapped is based on proposals made by wrong break in the 1980 s. The a. B. M. Treaty that was scrapped was based on proposals made by the United States in the 1960 s. So all of these treaties initially the United States. Because of that the United States or itself has been rivalry with the soviet union or even wanted to build confidence when the soviet union had those confidence Building Measures to materially turn vines the basis for ending the cold war that was the. Indispensable foundation that foundation is being destroyed and their full weight come moving back into a situation where International Tensions already weve already talked about the possibility of when you cope with china in the 1st segment of all progress this is very dangerous and is most alarming thing to me of all is all of this is happening and western public seems to be completely oblivious to it so well and western legacy media writing on discussing will do it is not smart and because i mean i know they have exactly. These treaties were celebrates it and now that they scratched and its as if nobody cares this is easy credit be dangerous it is incredibly dangerous they think it is more he needs to be dangerous in my opinion than the Climate Change issues that we hear so much about. These this weight down of control is the kindest thing that could lead to a spiraling of International Tensions as we have not seen since then and that was the whole purpose of having them except as a party or a demon if i find it really quite remarkable that the lead to arms negotiator be United States i think its billings lean much if im pronouncing the persons name correctly it is said and last few days that they dont want to have an arms race but if necessary well outspend the chinese and the russians i mean what kind of lunacy is this ok i mean here we have a gloat we have a certainly a global recession maybe a depression here the debt devons are being blown all over the place particularly in the United States and they have achieved arms control ago and let me repeat that the arms control negotiator person who wouldnt want to have arms. Ross saying that you know we could outspend the chinese and the russians again a rarity from the 1960 s. And 170 s. And even in the eightys there and let me add to that let me just add that isnt there are voices in the American Administration talking about and in the Nuclear Test Ban i mean when i read that i my job at the floor i mean whats the why i mean one of the theres a global consensus you do that you dont do that or very rarely and then you would have to explain why and now thats being thrown absolute weve already mentioned all the of the entire a ray of arms control it existed at the beginning of the century theyre almost completely gone he didnt head around that more or testing go ahead tim. Well there is some merry way of battle or getting behind it all the latin states are sticks to the agreement when technologically it is and want to just want them to stick to the remains so as alexander rightly said. In the 1960 s. There are now this days didnt have a. B. M. Acknowledge it and many stick missiles prepacked them so they suggested these a. B. M. Treaty which opened war the soviet union and there let the states do or you know this balance or fear right and they scrapped it then 2001 when it appeared new technology will protect the United States wrong markram espouse wrong russia star wars to be more yes or same story now one of the reasons why the orbital skies agreement is been scrambled the United States is because they havent you said that i know would you so they dont need points do to control russia. They dont care about what that does they dont care about krissy cross city so there is this is a very dangerous logic i only stick to the agreements that if you know what you can live a good mind to just do me. The same story where theyre the same. Year by trump that the United States can raise you nuclear test in korea for the 1st time since 1900 to. Me to remind you that the organ skies agreement was signed in 1902 right after the end or the cold war. When the office guys agreement was negotiated nor one could imagine that cutting the grass region would be an x. Glad that it would miss surrounded by 2 qantas unfortunately all during the course russia ball and the lithuania at the time if they knew and was still a part of the soviet union run open skies. So these people if they act. On something that is to know what to play by us with them and they completely it is we got history if forget what happened just 2 or 3 years ago you know when they say you know what business has russia during ukraine they discard 300 at least 300 actually or 100 years or so history this is the same story with open skies and kind of you know grab they just forget what what what was there just do it when youre there and you dont think yeah he meant they just simply dont know because they dont take any ever nuge on to me here is you know you have one minute left here one of the think that this is an opportunity ok that is being lost we have. Well the west is ratcheting up tensions with china now it was an arms control regime was one thing that you know you would always the 2 sides adversaries would come together and because it was their Mutual Benefit this is the time to bring china in you start in you know pushing ratcheting down these tensions but theyre doing obviously the exact opposite go ahead and get one shot in this idea that you can somehow id spend the chinese and the russians post at the same time they do so on mass producing presumably incredibly dangerous weapons which. Well anyway also on somali the whole concept of Nuclear Nonproliferation the Nuclear Nonproliferation treaty this year the major ones you. Know increase you know the murder rate up all the time weve had now gentlemen you know one of many many thanks to my guests in london and here in moscow and i think our viewers for watching us here at our beat see you next time remember. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. 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