To discuss this and more im joined by my guest to me bob in moscow he is a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london we crossed alexander material is a writer on Legal Affairs as well as editor in chief of the direct com gentleman cross up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciate it ok lets 1st go to alexander mackerras in london i suppose its been a long coming the murmurings have been out there but it has taken this pandemic for an all out at least media lot into china. And of course its also played into the election cycle in the United States and i mean literally looking at the latest the media and their view of all of this on one hand im not completely surprised because while somebody said blame for this endemic which of course is the subject for many other programs however in looking at the criticism of people there with low octane thinking in my. 1st and foremost like ok i was secretary of state which International Intelligence agency you do not agree with is assess and begin with. What i find really remarkable or a remarkable opening on how you want to approach this what is the strategy because i dont see what go ahead and i think there is there is no strategy what has happened is exactly as you said the spinners on to the bowling and under the surface of the american all that 62 wars charlie no which has been building up through the very long time china has become increasingly rich has become increasingly powerful economy by many measures has now supastar to the United States the 1st time thats happened to the United States since the 870 s. When apes across britain is becoming head of the United States and there is a areas of technology and its political influence has been growing so its not surprising that this is creating problems for people in the United States especially given the overall reigning sense of importance the United States gives syria it sells so its not surprising it has been bubbling up for a long long time on this sort of ceding of animus or hostility towards china has but what has happened is that when this pandemic all of this is 1st so this this in an extraordinary hangry any temperate way and you see the media the political establishment theyre all for you know shouting suddenly at china but they have no real plan they have they sort of militarized their approaches had sat talking wildly about cutting economic lakes but theyre not really coming up with anything that remotely constitutes a plaid possibly because a plan is not to be found. Exactly you know david we have all this in many of our viewers too isnt this the reemergence of china because thats how they define and its not been you know be a rising power its the re emerging china after 150 years of humiliation primarily at the hands of the west including russia. And now just when they get up to the top of their game suddenly the only person the United States that have made a lot of money investing in china a lot of money they brought all the jobs there china didnt steal one job from the United States the jobs were taken away from the United States and factories were shut but it is you know how exactly curious is already alluded to is that we talk theres even talk of a military response it seems to me that this is a 20th century mindset maybe even a 19th century mindset because the real front tier of competition is research and development and that is one area that china has pushed very hard for and that is giving them the cutting edge when you talk military youre speaking from weakness thats my opinion because it shows you dont have a strategy china is already been surrounded by american bases it is already being. Being contained in many ways particularly in a military way so i think that the tool box is empty or are they just dont know how to solve their own temper tantrum about what is going on particularly when the Economic Situation primarily in the United States is very unclear as the pandemic abates go ahead. Well youre right that if your minds are normal range of a century or the 19th century it means reminds more than darkest ages or the way jacks entry of course what happens is basically it was accusing biden or being a cheneys agent and by then is it years of drawing board being a russian agent doesnt it remind your something doesnt of you mind you or the warst year thought the story to union in the soviet union at least you know under study and there was just one group that was demonized at the time now we have 2 groups demonised at the time you know in the United States and what made me a laugh especially at michael r. With tears in my eyes was basically an article you know that when dick madison buy an apple ball when sure all that their wallet is off in the trunk and she wants the world to be serious about trumps all she wants your card to basically. If you want your real current economic ties to china well that would be real lunacy because what we are now is rhetorical willesee and their real current economic ties with china would be a real hoot but we know how that works sure you can will need external months you have this paranoia you know all by them is a chinese agent trump is a russian agent and then you have very bad quansah grants in the case of russia this is down the ranks arms control in the case of china is there no International Trade ok maybe you know alex it is but this is a good Movie Theater isnt it i mean cutting ties to china i mean anyone that has 2 brain cells to rub together knows you cant do that because pulling is not really an option i mean if that is going to be the option if there is some kind of united front behind it which i hardly can see the bad ever happening after 40 years of a couple linked. You know it would be the end of the reaction to this here is that this is a good book eater because its talking about something that is a realist you cannot cut these ties because International Trade would collapse more than it has already and and that again this kind of defaults to a military option which of course is ridiculous on its face i mean what are they going to do build and the u. S. Going to do build more Aircraft Carriers you know how easy this is the same berman thinks 100000. 00 missile and you can take out a multibillion dollar Aircraft Carrier again where is the thinking here or as i think we probably all agreed there isnt much thinking here this is just a kneejerk response its not just a kneejerk response an unrealistic it is fantastic and hes dangerous it is a sense has staked out here that you can cut all china from the World Economy china is a set by many metrics now the biggest the biggest industrial is the worlds biggest but trading endurable goods the idea that you can simply cut all that all around the World Economy and steam all has it as you know as if that could just be done it is just as i said completely childish is it again coming back to what you said a proper 20th century its the mindset in the 1960 s. When the soviet union did operate within its own economic world and the United States operate in its own economic world and it was very little overlap between zax times yes you could say you could draw up the cons of various and you could work on all those kind of lines with china is that possible and even contemplate the other direction of a arms race with China Building at carriers china. Thank you can just to base now the United States has a bill because Shipbuilding Industries in the United States dont get it what it was thought is that they must be clear what how did they get how did the u. S. And china find themselves in a situation that the chinese somehow made the United States destroy its own Industrial Base for 6 to do so i mean of course it has been this rhetorical we could keep going you know it it and i think what happened was back in the 98790 s. American companies decided that it would make much more sense for their profits of late to open their factories in china where costs production costs went. And to close them in the United States when they were much higher and of course that was at an american decision it was not ultimately a chinese one the chinese could not take americas Industrial Base from the United States it needed americans to make that decision and i can very well remember back in the 1990 s. All kinds of people many of the same people were talking now about china vetoed stating americas ideas probably factories they were they were praying about it they were saying you know we dont really need to think you charge there is a competitor because we run mostly this economy because most of self produce there are american theyre american and so of course that has proved completely wrong leaving many ways because of course the chinese demand that their every color meet in their own fashion but its ridiculous to blame the chinese for americas mistakes but the mckinsey view of the world here and now everybody likes these things here but you know theyre relatively cheap because theyre made in china not in the United States ok thats up to email its almost finished up here. Lets listen lets pose the most obvious question here in your mind is china a threat to the United States you know what i used the word threat you can define the word or however you wish him. Well china is lot of threat to the United States because cheney is are acting responsibly and they invested a lot of line you know the American Security yes and they have x. Generationally then i did states their government that is the real threat to them in their states because i have as we have seen with a score. At the dam in this state now has enormous power this power of the state in all the world now is much bigger than the power of the soviet union or its citizens i mean we have seen that the state going to local the state can isolate you from Public Transportation this state can shut down all Small Businesses for weeks sometimes months so when you say its impossible to cut all the china well unfortunately it is for simple and thats why it is so dangerous and thats why i do all day so important because if if there is an economic war against china it will be it will not be a war we can American Economy interest it will be i do always down a rope and you know it made it up the just go in it one of you what about American Consumers thats the reason why this all happened because americans do more like she starts now than rigorous last 15 seconds here china needs to be punished what is that range of heat in your mind it sounds very colonial to me go has a great eightys compete he can learn to answer your previous question china is no threat to the United States their own let me trees frets to the United States certainly not from china and china recent starting wars all over the place well now but gentlemen we have to go to our breaking out about heart break well continue our discussion on some real news day with our. 54 jets and more than 1300 military personnel are headed to heal some air force base in alaska where is that to say come on ill show you whats the reason for any type of enhanced u. S. Military presence in this area rush up. What is it suddenly about the South China Sea that makes it so that it 11000000000 barrels of oil. Take a look at this map who really owns what kind of says no it belongs to us india says no we claim that that belongs to us both of these countries have Nuclear Weapons capabilities there is reason for concern so thats why were going to drill down on the story for you today right here on the news with rick sanchez where you know as we always like to say we do believe by golly its time to do news again. No offense but you no longer a young woman in fact you are one of the last living survivors of the not. Im aware of it. All you like. You can never forget. Was it really like to be in jail because you would never believe what its going to ask. Cause for 32 years to the curb it. Seems so logical for you to make it. When i get out im going to find somebody you know well you take my song to the next you so he can listen and hopefully bless her. Welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered a bell to remind you were discussing some real news. Ok lets go to change gears here all over the last we have been getting murmurings for the last couple of weeks but its finally happened the United States is deciding to withdraw from the open skies agreement a lot of people may have not heard about this is a very important builder of arms control that we saw negotiated the end of the last century we can talk about i now we can talk about the new start agreement that is. To be a ballot in the beginning of next year so talk about open skies and couch it in the importance of arms control something that were really in were losing to the detriment of the entire world had been. Well basically the open skies agreement was signed by russia and its western partners i think 3534 countries in general it was signed in 1902 and by him didnt start or reagan until 2002. Him alone of course it would be very useful for the west because they would basically mourn and then military action in chechnya and in general of course russia is more vulnerable to open skies agreement you know because we rely on our our own territory to defend our country we dont have bases next to the United States on next door but again show a nurse or a c. In western europe so ways to clear what happened was there there are these agreements unit everyone including Ukraine Ukraine is against the United States even that agreement because then they wont be able to fly or where there are you know the russian. Military units in in western russia not blame game here i mean we didnt really need to stress or abuse this is like what we call a confidence Building Measure correct absolute you know and this is something that not all of the people understand the information that you get from these flights it is available to everyone you have to share it with all because it been seen they dream and then that camera sat sealed by inspectors here that controlled by inspect this in the country where you where you are making your morning for and why. So its a quantum building met measure and the reasons which share trump and theyre all wrong why there are ludicrous you know they said that russia does not allow lives or where its a region in cali in grad formally east prussia and all of them or with georgia well the last time the United States had this wide was march in march this year they u. S. Planes and nato planes. You all were running aground morning during their miters situation there with the border with georgia will remember saakashvili tapped russian peacekeepers in 2000 aid and some say though there was a real war there might be even even with this you know this problem was negotiate well this is not something that just russians see George SchultzWilliam Perry former u. S. Defense secretary and sam nunn they wrote several articles arguing for the present nation of the riemann and they all 3 of them said all 3 of them wrote that this problem was negotiated with russia it could be a sort. But orbit it drawn by the pump there are held down on destroying all the arms control so i unfortunately you know the e. U. It says that theyre against it but we know from the experience with the eye and there that the e. U. May. Object in the beginning and them dont really know and the. President broke germany in the beginning and then there was a couldnt communicate to Foreign Ministers obey your subordinate them arrogant as you and i and that im afraid the same story make up until that opens. You know alex i am i dying is a very tragic but again all very predictable john bolton isnt in the white house but bolton is and remains when what is this mantra to dismantle all arms control because. All of us are more or less the same age on this channel i mean these were all harold is as is breakthroughs and going down the path of nonproliferation these these were milestones need these were celebrated and now as time passes and because the war rivalry of the 20th century is moving further and further in the past people dont understand that nonpolitical issues if it is important now as it ever was what how do you explain i think one of the recent is happening is because the United States has become increasingly up in secure about its and military position and as a result its lashing out and one of the ways is lashing out shes going strong and mean these treaties can i sit here in sky st he was 1st proposed but the United States in the 19 fifties and had the i. M. F. Treaty that was respect that is based on proposals made by wrong break in the 1980 s. The a. B. M. Treaty that was scrapped was based on proposals made by the United States in the 1960 s. So. All of these traces initially the United States. Because of that saw in the United States or itself as being in rivalry with the soviet union even on tits and build confidence when the soviet union had those confidence Building Measures to materially time finds a basis for ending the cold war that was the. Indispensable foundation that foundation is being destroyed and their full weight come moving back into a situation where International Tensions are already weve already talked about the possibility of when you cope well with china in the 1st segment of all progress is there a dangerous as most alarming since may of all is all of this is happening and west and public seems to be completely oblivious to it so well and western legacy media writing on discussing will do it is not smart and clever enough they are exactly quite right these treaties were celebrates it and now that they scratched and its as if nobody cares this is easy credit be dangerous it is incredibly dangerous they can it is more he needs to be dangerous in my opinion than the Climate Change issues that we hear so much about because. These this weight down of ons control is the kind of thing that could lead to a spiraling of International Tensions as we have not seen since then and that was the whole purpose of having them exactly theres a here and even if i find it really quite remarkable that the lead to arms negotiator be United States i think its buildings will lean much from her lips in the persons name correctly it is said and the last few days that they. I dont want to have an arms race but if necessary we will outspend the chinese and the russians i mean what kind of lunacy is this ok i mean here we have a gloat we have certainly a global recession maybe a depression here the debt devons are being blown all over the place particularly in the United States and they have to achieve arms control they go and let me repeat the arms control negotiator person who wouldnt want to have arms control saying that you know we could outspend the chinese and the russians again rhetoric from the 1960 s. And 1970 s. And even in the eightys there and let me add to that let me just add that isnt there are voices in the American Administration im talking about and in the Nuclear Test Ban i mean when i read that i my job at the floor i mean whats the why i mean one of the theres a global consensus that you do that you dont do that or very rarely and then you would have to explain why and now thats being thrown absolute weve already mentioned the entire a ray of arms control. Existed at the beginning of this century theyre almost completely gone then you can get your head around that more testing go ahead jim. Well there is some merry way of battle or behind it all the latin states are sticks to the agreement when technologically it is and im to just want them to stick to the remains so as alexander rightly said. You know the 1960 s. Then i just days didnt have a b. M. Acknowledge it and im a mystic nice oust to protect them so they suggested these a. B. M. Treaty which opened war the soviet union and there let the states do or you know this balance or fear right and they scrapped it then 2001 when it appeared new technology will protect the United States from our own midst ausra russia star wars to be yes or same story now one of the reasons why the orbital skies agreement is been scrambled the United States is because they havent you said that i know would you so they dont need pleats do to control russia. They dont care about quantum since they dont care about Chrissy Cross city so although there is this is a very dangerous logic i want to stick to the agreements that if you know what you can hear a reminder of just to me and the same story where there is a year by trump that the United States can resume Nuclear Testing for the 1st time since 1902. Me remind you that the organ skies agreement was signed in 1902 right after the end or the cold war. When the orders guys agreement was negotiated nor one would imagine that cutting the grass region would be an extra way that it would be surrounded by 2 qantas unfortunately although the course though russia paul and the lithuania at the time used to a new and was still a part of the soviet union when open skies will go so these people they act. Well something that is that nobody played by yes well them and they completely is really got history forget what happened just 2 or 3 years ago you know when they say you know what business has russia during ukraine they described 300 at least 300 actually crawl on 100 years ago history the same story with that open skies and how do you know grab they just forget what what what was there just do it when youre out there and you dont speak yet the man they just simply dont know because they dont take any effort in trying to make here is you know we have one minute left here one of the this is an opportunity ok that is being lost we have. The west is ratcheting up tensions with china now it was an arms control regime was one thing that you know you would always the 2 sides adversaries would come together and because it was their Mutual Benefit this is the time to bring china in you start you know pushing ratcheting down these tensions but theyre doing obviously the exact opposite go ahead and get what they need i mean this idea that you can somehow and spend the chinese and the russians both at the same time to do so on mass producing presumably incredibly dangerous weapons which will lead the way also undermine the whole concept of Nuclear Nonproliferation the Nuclear Nonproliferation treaty its yes its the major powers who would use. You know increase you know the later after that but over time weve had to have a gentleman here one of many many thanks to my guests in london and here in moscow want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r. G. P. So you next time remember. To. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i. Show business ill see of that. Is youll be via reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe from. Isolation or community. Are you going the right way or are you being led so well. Dilate. What is true what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or remain in the shallows. I know team no crowd. No shots will. Actually help speak up. Well and strong note the 1st. Point should your thirst for action. Be above. d all. Come. On a few more less suffering which leads to more than. That. Stupid