Cause the next pandemic oliseh more coming up on todays going underground but 1st to a scientist who has transformed our definition of humanity itself while leaders like Boris Johnson and donald trump attempt to reignite neo liberal economics after coronavirus the pioneering primatologist dr jane goodall argues we need mastery education about what it is to be human without that education promoted in 140. 00 countries by our n. G. O. Roots and shoots we are condemned just suffer not just coronavirus but one pandemic after another she joins me now via skype from bournemouth in england jane thanks so much for coming on everyone here is talking about restarting the economy the u. S. And u. K. Saying weve got to fight china yet few people really talking about environmental or industrial farming what do you make of the origin of coronavirus. Well you know i obviously personally havent studied the transmission of barristers from animals to people a simple zoonotic diseases but ive read an awful lot about it its very clear that most new diseases in people today have spilled over from bacteria or in this case of iris from animals sometimes it goes from a reservoir speed to another animal which ystem the intermediate host and from that down multi people and we brought this on ourselves because of our terrible disrespect of the Natural World and animals and so you know we take wild animals we kill them eat them we trafficked them we send them to meet markets in asia well marked animal meat markets in asia and meat the bush meat trade animals also meat markets in africa and we breathe down Domestic Animals billions of them in terrible cruel. You know conditions and all of this terrible conditions in the meat markets and our factory farms are creating absolutely superb environments as far as that this is a 2nd sound to animals to people who move to the markets there no less than a celebrity like support mccartney who is quick to say we must close the wet markets down i notice youve been keen to emphasize the difference between wet markets per se and wildlife markets perhaps seeking not to oriental eyes this pandemic. Yes well the thing is the point about a wet market is that most wet markets in china dont sell wild animals theyre more like the farmers markets that we have while we have them in britain and america but not wild animals thats now been closed in china the trading and selling of wild animals for troops the problem here is you saw one problem but then another looms and the one looming here is all the thousands of people who actually have no other likelihood so you have to help them get through changing from breeding and selling wild animals hunting wild animals for food and finding another way of making money so you see poverty is crucial eradication of poverty is crucial to your Environmental Concerns absolutely and you know we mustnt forget the Climate Crisis and our concern for the cobe it 19 because thats something which will carry on into the future this this pandemic will get through b. S. That out of many many places are going to have very serious economic problems people have lost their jobs people are mourning family members who know its been awful but we will get through it just as we get through really been through a lot of very unpleasant times in my life 9 live 86 scientia so. When you hear leaders like Boris Johnson babson certainly dont want trump repeatedly claiming no one could have predicted this pandemic you know you know i think thats the case. And i know its not its not to like because people studying these these soon arctic seasons have been predicting a really long time and you know that learns ok hiv aids started problem until. And selling eating chimpanzees in 2 different parts of africa are sas but again from another wild wild animal market in china are bent mars again from probably camels in the middle east and then being simple academics began from our factory farms in the effort to arson all these terrible unhygienic conditions one of the new films that out from national geographic. Called jame the 1st of their 2 once called hope talks about you when youre in goma in tanzania and the tragedy when polio hits the Small Community of a chimpanzees you are investigating in and made the whole of the world realize that humans were the only not the only species to have consciousness arguably just tell me about when a pandemic hit that camp. Well it was it was really the worst time in my life because we never knew which chimpanzee would come in dragging an arm or a neck and then some of them would just disappear and it was it was absolutely heartbreaking and it began in a nearby town. And bizarrely the doctor at the time it was an italian he he didnt he could not talk about polio we think its because he couldnt have the proper supplies anyway nobody knew that there was colin or anywhere and then some people in a village just south of gandhi got this paralysis and then some chimps there was seen dragging limbs and then it came to us so we back snake is the most and im very susceptible to these restore a tree deceases and were terribly worried that this could 19 could get you know an effect in fact our chimps and theyre all endangered now and the iranian towns yeah im going to get to reasons for there are possible extinction but speaking about gone bad nearly 60 years since you were there with a groundbreaking research but of course whats disturbing about it today is it led to a war a virtual war between different elements in the community because an epidemic struck an area well actually the division of the community and what i call the 4 year war wasnt actually. It had nothing to do with the polio epidemic what we now know is that anywhere where a tourist an ape so its a pretty studies group we have to take very great precautions to ensure that the chimps dont catch on to see since. The 2 contains i knew in the old days so on most all gone but one of the ones who has by a real say friend was graeme and. Last time i actually saw kremlin she came right up to me and looked into my eyes i mean of course they recognize us just as we recognize them that we had ducked under the shiver on this Program Actually in the past few days i know she said platforms with you she was saying it was clear the deforestation is part of the puzzle of corona virus and his one and a half acres of rain forests are destroyed every 2nd tell me about the deforestation how its affected animal life the chimpanzees that you love so so much and why the whole world needs to wake up to the idea that its affecting them right now well the the forestation particularly of the tropical forests which are carbon sinks the they you know absorb c o 2 Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere and store it and as we destroy the forests we release that Carbon Dioxide back of course relates to the Climate Crisis just like the pollution of the ocean but also as we clean out more and more parents with its rich bio diversity so animals are pushed together much more frequently than they would be because you know the owners in habitat and animals are pushed into shreds the contact with humans some a democrat rating simply becomes we have been great at their homes so yeah this is definitely an important part of the. Seasons. In one of the movies the chicago conference you spoke at in 1986 was on forest destruction and instead that 90 percent of chimpanzees were killed in the 1980 s. It seems like an enormous sum what does it feel like in 2020 talking about deforestation. Well its just going on and you know its one of the things that a con terribly concerned by an intense any o. E. M. Programs for reforestation and protecting the existing forests will have bio diversity and thats where it impacts the the zoonotic diseases so why do you think a pandemic that is made everyone conscious of that connection suppose you would hope why is it theres been no call for companies associated with forest destruction were no call for them to be shut down after this pandemic is if not over at least has less of an impact on our daily lives. Well lets hope there were there that will be there might be i mean ive been fighting to stop the forestation and again we come back to probably because an awful lot of that the forest station and the scene with other habitats too is very poor people and theyre going down then our streets in their desperation to grow food to feed their families so you know we also have to take into consideration the growing human population worldwide eat and. I learned in the rainforest how everything is interconnected and just doing one piece of it isnt enough but luckily different n. G. O. S tackle different aspects of it Global Environmental problem how can the forest i have this very strong feeling our great spiritual power. It was the kind of feeling that i sometimes have in one of the of cathedrals where people have been to my shrimp yeah after year after year. You are arguably. Really important when it came to stopping animal experimentation basically chimpanzee experimentation with all the talk now is of vaccines and actually theyre often talking about the Doctor University of a chimp a dino virus that theyre injecting with corona virus as i understand it into pigs well how do you see the role of our animal animal experimentation in vaccine research. Well quite honestly by talk to the people who doctors and scientists who are coming up against on the experimentation you know the stillest work on mice and rats and dogs and even chimpanzees are not so like us they were if they were thought to be the arms of finding vaccines and cures are still there they can be infected mother animals couldnt they didnt develop the symptoms. One of the labs i visited i was shown into this room with 4 tims down each side 5 foot by 5 foot k. To 7 foot high and the 1st from was called jojo. It was very handsome male been alone for 15 years or so and i looked into his eyes and i was thinking of the combi chimpanzees lying there soft ground making me feel nests grooming each other and hed been there alone with time and so tears began trickling under my mask and he reached out a gentle finger and wiped the tears away the way ahead is to work harder and harder an alternative to using any animals in medical experimentation and you know theres a lot of doctors writing from atlanta was going to conferences that it and huge strides has been made theres many many ways of experimenting with excel tissue and organ tissue which do not involve torturing animals the problem very often is that to get some new drugs on the market you have to show the powers that be whatever organization it is that you have done experiments on animals dr jane goodall stop you there more from one of the worlds most famous conservationists after this short break. During the vietnam war u. S. Forces also bomb to neighboring laos it was a secret war. And for years the American People did not know. How much anticipation every back country per capita all Human History millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this Small Agricultural country. Even today kids in laos full victim to bombs dropped decades ago because the us making amends for their tragedy in laos wont help to the people need in that little land of mines. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to get out of the world of politics or business im show business ill see you then. Welcome back im still here with world renowned conservationist dr jane goodall well on Big Pharmaceutical Companies maybe on big fossil fuel companies. Actually whos written of her chimpanzees in a different context hes been talking about this apparent dissonance between the c. E. O. s of these sorts of companies and the children and grandchildren of the c. E. O. s of these companies tell me about roots and shoots and how. Somehow education can create children or help children understand i dont know what their parents are doing is going to create more pandemics in the future. Yes absolutely more pandemics and more destruction of the environment and actually stealing their future it works rich in ships began in 1901 and it began with 12 High School Students in tanzania its now in 65 countries its growing all the time it has members in kindergarten university in everything in between and may choose projects themselves but one to help people one help animals one to help the environment because of this everything being in the connected and changing world as we speak they are were listening to them very small and theyre being empowered and were helping them to express what a feel and theyre learning about the kind of things that we never learnt to count because they want problems back then. I had the idea for it to choose speakers i found so many young people whod lost hope and said there was nothing they could do about the future of the planet so i try and inspire as many children of all ages as i can to take action and roots and shoots somehow create certain values and we found that many what i call alumni the people being true the roots and shoots program. They they you know they come up to me in china for example and similar of course we care about the environment we were in roots and shoots in Primary School and i dont know for lack but sometimes a child will influence the behavior parent or grandparent because they told me so what about the idea of it say no less than the girlfriend of the british Prime MinisterKerri Symonds have been tweeting i understand about roots and shoots will politicians really react to. Speeding up processes that will stop Climate Change i mean by 20 what is that within 100 years we expect to have no rain forest whatsoever on earth at the current rate. At the current rate and thats why its so desperate to stop it and we still have time we have this window of time and i think my greatest hope is partly the resilience of nature you know around gandhi in 1998 all the trees that had been there had gone and now theyre back again because we work with the people alleviate their property and so on but. So their children you know theyre not not making demands theyre showing example i dont believe you can change anybodys heart whether its a parent whos just a you know ordinary person with an ordinary job or somebody whos a c. E. O. Or a politician you care to reach the heart its no good arguing with that with the mind because soon as you begin arguing people get defensive they want to protect their point of view and theyre thinking all the time about how theyre going to refute what they are going but if you tell stories stories that reach into the heart you may not know at the time the difference that you make but you sometimes find out later what about working with big business on environmental projects we have no less than an advisor to Prince Charles on this program who told us that he was appalled by green washing at top fossil fuel companies of course you have a history with conoco funded your project what would you advise environmentalist today about whether they should team up with big fossil fuel companies perhaps with flowers on their labels and their logos. Yes well i think the 1st thing to do is to investigate the practices that that company and what percentage of money theyre putting into developing alternative Clean Renewable Energy is a reason that we went with conoco is because back then before they were true they were bought out by 1st dupont and then today phillips but back then it was the most environmentally friendly oil company on the planet i think i sat down and i thought ok but i think this thing out and i thought to myself heres a company thats trying to do it as well as they can and im flying im driving im using electricity im spending money on the products that products that these Oil Companies are selling so its very hypocritical if you need one thats trying to do better and you say no im not going to take your money except might look might make you look better than you are as hypocritical so my met my my advice is really find out what that company is doing i mean some of them totally mushy and its awful but some of them really are putting a lot of money into alternative energy and treat planting then take money from them and what bring them to make things worse now i work partly this summer activists with say have a time for that environmental ism is over as the Climate Emergency becomes more obvious Extinction Rebellion the group the International Group that is. In the lead arguably with fighting Climate Change they were put on a tear or list here perhaps using tactics perhaps using weapons of their are enemies whats your reaction to Extinction Rebellion as it plans demonstrations around the world virtually or in situ during the pandemic. Well i think i honestly think that you know demonstrations have a role to play nonviolent demonstrations and to use force has happened in an nenni countries against peaceful protest is shocking i mean people need to express their views and i think when enough people as an Extinction Rebellion do take to the streets when children take to the streets you know it must spark some new awareness in some people and the way you can understand that they threaten the profits the socalled shareholder value the with all the externalities of the accountants call them the power are clearly fearful of these demonstrations and arguably the the hope that you speak of i think youre writing a book on hope at the moment. Well thats absolutely true and you know the consumer and the boat in at least in some countries are really have a powerful role we again got to say. People living in poverty dont have much choice but providing youre reasonably well off if you dont like the company guns go by its curtains its again hypocritical to say oh the way you make all your your stuff is evil is totally environmentally unfriendly or stealing our childrens future and then you go and spend a lot of money buying their products although as you say. Many people do not have arguably the 99 percent do not have the choice as austerity has kicked in in western economies since 2008 you know its going to get worse but that is the big problem also you started off with education thats important too because unless people understand the dynamics of a problem they cant make it the call choice is coming and you know i found in china actually people who believed that elephant shouldnt get a tusks if we you know what we say or that cant be true but if youve never seen an elephant youve never been taught anything about wild animals why shouldnt they ship that to us so you know again its education from sometimes a very basic level that helps people who can make a difference to make a difference when i was 10 years old i had them train i will go to africa i will live with wild animals and i will write books about them everybody laughed at me youre just a girl girls dont do that sort of thing. But my mother she said if you really want to do this youre going to have to work off the hard but dont give up and i know youve emphasized hope with action in the past you spoke with james baker the secretary of state for Ronald Reagan do you think youd speak today with donald trump and secretary of state pompei o about why they should link here is shaking your head why they should understand the link between the environment and the destruction of the us economy because of their own of ours. Now i mean everybodys told them that i would to be honest i just wouldnt waste my time talking to people like that because they dont want to be they dont want to be dont want to change they wont you see when you talk about consumer advocacy in the way that you just have im sure your probably aware of k. Street in washington the lobbying street how can you fight the lobbying of fossil fuel industries that are against what you say i mean obviously the jane goodall n. G. O. S are trying their best to educate tens of thousands of children can they make the difference compared to billions of dollars of Public Relations money Advertising Money and arguable backhanders to politicians. Well right now i suppose the answer is probably no but just because it seems you know unlikely doesnt mean you stop trying because if you give up then youll never succeed and i still believe we have a window of time all we can do all of us is the very best that we can and try and get a browns well a Critical Mass of people who understand that yes we need money to live but it goes wrong when we limit the money and i mean read orleans economists who talk about that real cost of food on other materials that are coming in from other countries and when. We sort of again its the consumer who doesnt understand i mean why is this product cheap is cheap because of factory farming which is horribly cruel to animals and absolutely shocking its cheap because that child slave labor a slave chops and really not paying the right amount of money for what we buy in the west to brown or to a very large extent so its like i say if we get all of these things you know that all interwoven and no one organization can solve everything or we can do this work as hard as we can to change just many minds as possible and to have hope that the many minds will change the way things operate because after this coronavirus if we go back to business as usual which is the goal of so many of our politicians around the world today that horrible swing to the far right then and this window of time that we have to create change its closing all the time dodging good off thank air thats over the show we better wednesday here they argue about it obama groene ever convicted her for. Deadliest terrorist attack the lockerbie bombing died in tripoli often ages destruction of africas riches forgotten a country libya 270 People Killed in pan am flight 103 crash of a guy his family with 2 months ago going to the ability to appeal his conviction widely seen as linked to a tony blair for going to oil deal with privatized b. P. For fuel company until wednesday wash your hands and join me on the ground on you tube has a sound that its a gram of facebook. We go to work so you straight home. You have to do it. Because each of us is used to the you because you knew you could say you could only keep the we just going to do it if you could. Still sneak. Into quota some was time to listen to this and if you want to. Thank you sure this means for at least 2 flippin systems. Just the cute name you couldnt use if theres no one. Listening to you going to sleep if you dont smoke for just are you finished and. 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