To stop this and more im joined by my guest to meet me bob its in moscow he is a political analyst and editor of you know just me internet project and in court we have Geoffrey Robertson he is americas professor of history at University College cork and a member of the Royal Irish Academy his latest book is churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the 2nd world war right gentlemen crossed out roles in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want house appreciate it or i let me 1st go to the demon here in moscow you know d. M. A. Here we go again this is almost like our tradition with our calling jeffrey we do this every single year commemorating victory in europe over fascism and for every single year that we do it we find ourselves in more and more in a revisionist mode here i mean as i understand as were sitting down doing our chat right now. Is it facebook has banned a colorized version of the of the serbian banner over europe and the very very iconic one of showing victory in europe and you know ive searched around its a true story i mean what in the world is going on here the black and white version seems to be acceptable the color when not are there different meanings or is this a revision and sell and why in the world would anyone want to deny that iconic photograph its like the sailor kissing the young lady on times square in victory over japan i mean what is going on here go ahead well i dont know which exactly of which were acting exactly. We mean here more likely its there i want to image or west soviet soldier would you not there had been or were riots which was basically the central issue of Central Power in the nazi germany so for decades there was no problem with this let you know it. Its a familiar image its like that you might or american soldiers would you not a flag. In the pacific during the war with japan you would you were going to cause a scandal here well basically a lot of russians on all thinking want to play norm why that discrepancy and youre going to hear Jeffrey Jeffrey roberts go ahead jeff show everybody here this is exactly the photograph were talking about. My goodness and here he has the props even for the program he had no idea it was going to ask is going to thats exactly it just to tell my office at the university. Im going to get must mean that its a matter. Yeah so are we russians who are thinking why you describe in russia now is certainly. That the country oh well the west then the soviet union i will war well of course style. We have a pluralistic educated to history you know right now in russia you can hear and you can read any kind of stuff about the war but to from an apple down to you know a stalinist revisionist you can get everything and that makes us different from the west now were just one narrative seems to be made in the last year and my explanation is that the problem is with the new west and i go with you because its impossible that the same sad story would suddenly happen in separate independent countries that you would count that sexual for Marshal Cohen you removed from prague and the czechs say it was just the local authorities who decided to do it you know then you have. You know facebook removing rescored on the colorized version of the sport facebook is based in that state alone its not only against russia the name of Franklin Delano roosevelt was removed from everywhere in poor unless people heard about. And there are every year rules about is still a National Hero in the night you know and thats the medicine just you know did the thing it says here i do it seems to me and i think tim is on to something it is an ideological approach to all this but we cant deny its simply ludicrous he didnt 9 the existence of historical figures now the difference is that glorify them ok i get that all right but you know its almost like the the iconic picture of yalta where you have you know Stalin Churchill and roosevelt and you know in our early in the in this post cold war environment you know somehow that is sacrilegious because youre putting stalin on stage here going on here to me go to jeff i want you to can only get going on the point is here is that history is something we should learn from it i mean its just not a moral play in the president s go ahead joe you know what 1st i dont like theres nothing to this historical revisionism because a long way back i mean almost as soon as the war has ended its history has been revised its going to launch you look to reason theres nothing new knows it the present time its were in the face period of historic revisionism as you call it. Connect it with the currents or russias relations with the west and look at all of that kind of. Group one point that david might well which im very much greater than russia these days you can say anything you like about it will pull any kind of extreme revisionist views anything its all shes actually much more serious he bites her wool in russia than death there at the recent west but having said that he does more than one narrative in the west not treat we shouldnt exaggerate. The county influence of the western liberal me here and western liberal elites such we shouldnt underestimate too to the extent to which among popular consciousness is quite a reasonable secret witness of the true facts of the will or wont watch and in particular was. To throw somebody play going to read homey. Ok well but we didnt hear that jeff and then why are these it seems to me that their heat for the for the the majority of people the majority of media there is a new revision is a narrative being pushed here but at the same time youre saying that among the population theres a level of awareness i think thats true but i think its getting smaller and smaller i used to teach at the university of california and you know young theyre supposed to be the cream of the crop in their knowledge was very scant and i have to worry that its even worse now because we have saving private ryan and you know we had i think yesterday the white house really giving credit to the United States late u. K. For victory over the nazis not obviously not mentioning a soviet union in one has to question is that intentional or is it just lack of knowledge finish up on that point jeff. Why if there are some countries country now feel United States its probably a straight bat case of. Expected oh no not only history will be starker or vicious narrative narrows originally to discredit comedy is just such a congressman naziism totalitarians the lowest common kind of state nowadays across its political function is to discredit russia that is good just ready to see an end to create a contrast between the west need marks in russian authoritarianism through a so that you know guilt by association of russia with the soviet union with day to totalitarian pasta so thats whats going to kind of question this. Hour to this continent fish but exactly right nice in poland says recognize that. Lets actually you know be part of the contest yes about the slums and well i mean i mean youve known me for a very very long time and thats always been my gripe is that its very difficult to talk about anything related to russia because its always about context and if you dont have basic facts then you dont have any context ok and thats the do. If occult see and discussing all this i mean you know there are different narratives about the war ended 3 as a result of that war i mean ive always taken the position is that most of the soldiers that died didnt die for communism they died for mother russia they died to protect their families their tradition their language their civilization the eye of the ideological sun you can put its been there if you can put it there but i dont think thats the majority of the pit opinion of the people that are there my opinion go ahead well i think there are people died for her right your reasons you know defend your russia and defending the soviet union but not on the russians. But i think the main reason what so why will you know the people realize that if he wins im not going to survive and. What happened later was that. Well who jockeying to power you for style in years and by starting it means i mean the problem of the character of star is the fall in basically are crucial to remove stalin from all their narrative about the war in the same way as starting removing hyun or trotsky from the narrative about the 1970 revolution so what happened on the wooden was now freedom team now you can be astonished you can say that you think stalin you know was very important that he won that war you can be and i study and the majority or if you want russian better and theres a lot of movies about the war you may know each of their mansions repression so well in the west they say or start in has been. When israel started back that is such a big lie you think because you know their way through shopfront bradner forts that it is worse than it is you know i was born in 1970 i remember that i forced saw study and teacher when i was 13 in 1903 on the windshield of a car you know that was wrong you know whatever we think about stalin as a figure it was wrong to remove his image to remove all memory about him and now the west wants us to reap eat the same thing you know to demonize the earth and there i am returning to this i dont want to go thing i will know the more that i always will the west i point out to liberals i wouldnt even call it our western i your would you why because its not in the western tradition its very if you want and they should experience you know shakespeare has dimensional characters and the problem with the more than western narrative is that it does not allow them mention of characters and there its. Never again not in the same time if data thats true. And theyre weak to induce the war it was he is nor it was he has the will power it was he hasnt made it to well im sitting here we go to the beer there is the debate there i would say they deserve a union on the war in spite of stalin ok but if he were just demonstrating to our viewers that there is a debate here i see jeff laughing in the in his Little Corner of their heads every very good operate of everything youre saying not look at it equal i dont know i think i just. Used to change Michael Stipe last year which i yes thought he was a brutal dictator but it was also good to see the most equal posted something. Like well. Known site or well the west the west western democracy well hitler that suburban Huggins Damon right there then i can talk the statements in that book ok well i mean in the well kate were just going to say you made a very important but the whitish contest is historical revisionism she is swedish not by producing a country political or large to china just a way to contest it with the start of truth and we get a certain true future by context contradiction concentra stuff going on he might not might not march so yeah we have to talk to some of the big tree and such but we also have to focus on the nazi pact we. Were going to do after the break were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on remembering victory in europe i mean 5 years ago today. We go to work so you straight home. Seemed wrong but all roles just dont fall. In the world yet to see how just being the conflict as a whole and in gains from it because of the trail. When someone find themselves worlds apart. Just to look for common ground. Well across town where all things are considered im Peter Lavelle reminder were talking about victory over passions in europe 75 years ago. Ok lets go back to the im a here in moscow here right before we went to the break jeffrey brought up the the nazi soviet bloc of course this is a hotly debated today and with good reason i would say because it kind of flushes out the historical facts and jeff was getting into that you know you mean you and i have talked about this so many times here and and as you pointed out to me very eloquently yes that hacked it exists and there were secret protocols we know that is part of the historical record but the way its being framed right now is that theres something the soviet union is called. Well any unique way because of that agreement but that isnt so most countries in that in europe had some kind of Security Agreement treaty with nazi germany before hostilities broke out in september 1039 you know where im going with this go ahead jim well you are absolutely right and when that actually our well the Russian Orthodox church recently a save said that this war what the punishment for sins and what of people who are angry and you may sad how come you know all of these millions of people who are sinful well no but diplomats diplomats representing these countries yes because basically every county in europe with the exception maybe of czechoslovakia in some way its not what happened in czechoslovakia yeah ok in some way cooperate with. Between 1033 and theyre making 41 so its a huge moral score if you want how you dont create this with evil without huge wants it wants us we have. A good thing you know this nature like it we dont have it youre off our study and your shape in france you know we cant study in a new band drop and that is reproduced now in billions and billions of corpus what we have this nature or churchill rules about and started you mentioned that well im very concerned about these speeches because the west and i you all idjit well even that resent dont ask graham evidence because you know here is roosevelt and judge you see them next to that mill and you know or they will simply prefer that because that will not suit their narrative you know the problem with regular ideologists in the west now as a regular. Is there they twist the past what the political interest will be they removed i thought it evidence i thought to the of e. S. P. N. In terms i thought of thats what the soviet stayed with you. History the future is certain but the past is not exactly a lot of things that were now saying of thought crimes in the west now there is no sex the other subsonic right now in russia but there are more and more kinds of thought crimes in the west and the problem is that these new western i go if youre this are to liberalism or no member is what we want with it or parades right images by hollywood year image you know stalin is the will and so that means that he is the way what the war started and hitler are to blame for the war to megalomaniacs i have been reading it in dollars on books now and people seem to disregard the war would not have been possible without needy and so people preparing for the william lee so the problem is much bigger than just too many other many acts but this is the way more than western aid ordinary moves its amos they always find a leader whom they demonize you know us are or the same you know. They say you dont win road if you base your hate they dont say mother will remove him and then everything will be fine so they may try to apply the same kind to ordinary the world war 2 which was a very complicated story a very complicated. But thats why are you concerned about this picture or study and rules or come true to each show was that basically people very different beliefs would come to an agreement and fight on be evil and one thing that i mentioned thats what i meant by introduction we have a pandemic we have different good leaders and different political systems different worldviews is pandemic doesnt care what your politics are we cant have Global Solidarity and im not dumb and what do you think is quest at work internationalism because globalism is that it doesnt go far. You. Have been go ahead yes well actually fucking michael on this on the show but you know my very 1st book which of course of the 30 years ago was called young honey a lot still has its about a nazi salute back now that you know right where you cite everyone business with the nazis in the line see it through some very light soul sort it b. C. Such as you know. Dismemberment check check check their list there is something that discusses unique about the nazi thought that is no equivalents to that fact any secret project did have some rather radical consequences not get getting away from it recruiting red occupation opponents. In september 9th not ok you can say that the territories that were taken but are at all meat what really postsurgery as they watch them better Russia Ukraine a united europe 2 republics. This certainly has to be made a fence so the nazis nazis were attacked and its a very complicated set of historical events which unfolds as a result of the leading into the us and jeffrey. Youre not here i dont think you need to defend i say i wouldnt i wouldnt phrase it that way a defense of it when i am i would say is if there is a reasonable explanation to understand why a bad thing happened we have to look at munich you have the western powers basically destroying the post world war one International System unilaterally destroying a sovereign state which they had implicitly and explicitly said that they would defend and then you go all the way up to august 19th 39th and you get a more under regis form of it but it is the precedent is set its the same price that it made even if you just have to agree i mean thats why i really get too sick and tired of people moralizing about an International System that the western powers. Corrupted before the 2 outsiders nazi germany and the soviet union were involved in it ok this isnt the way back you know and that again i want to make sure i think i dont think youd have to defend it you have to understand it go ahead offense at this very like yeah thats a very reasonable and actually cause simple explanation for the nazis when he says hes a threat and actually 1st he says he including saudi so to create some kind of you know. Grand alliance i found myself because it was peaceful and in the spice of that so yeah styling turned his very dirty to do with this real politic you know deceit you can describe is me and i. Saw it playing. It was the only c. M. You know hes not asked what he did. There is kind of actions which even carry the point is you cant the west cant moralize over that when itself was it culpable for the destruction and i would say the precursor to what would then become an inevitable war i mean they were the remarkable thing if you look at the historical record isnt it hillary was well basically shocked that chamberlain well would agree to breaking up well you know breaking up parts of texas a heavy use of these people to get their their regular going to sell them out i mean and then months later the entire country was about in a kind of more i mean if you want to use the moral dimension what this is the moral character that youre dealing up and stuck in style he believes that to try to please the british and french will do the. Trick right which is like well they could be good look theyre all over yeah yeah ok ok so the nazis are active. As more people actually historical sense was the grand Alliance Yeah the judas will want to Grant Lawrence you know the big 3 churches doesnt you know you know the networks and it worked go ahead david look its the most successful. Legal artistry sure concerts the men jump in well our 1st since were broken in paradoxes here. Jeffrey has just said that you know we can keep to our style and see western democracies in the same way this fact trust without it i dont think that there is no absolute necessary union in 1901 would be possible because because of the pact the soviet union has one wall to states and western ukraine inside itself these very hostile n. G. O. S you know which remain out under who are much more basically in the late eightys as soon as next had an opportunity to express their themselves the needed it turned against moscow and then you fired the west doesnt like that back so much they should return the owners to point. And and theyre listening out on how hes doing here with you without news live our let me take a very provocative look at you know you can make parallels with that there you know a lot of ways you know you can say that now russia and the United States and the west and you know cannot agree on fighting coronavirus in the same way they couldnt agree in 18391 fighting hitler despite his or your patient of or stricture so i think he is or he has sent a semi but why did that happen well because. The United States and the u. K. The view would. Rush out of the soviet union very that if you were wrong now the United States and the u. K. Are viewing russia and china very night they dont want aid from china from china makes them angry you know its you know theyre talking about propaganda well theyve got games youve got plenty to protect themselves keep going let me think maybe i could just be happy till i had get their power to australia ok look you get from starting to get a move later churches get together not what contemporary politicians can actually confront this request me for facing now. If they want this matter of Political Choice you compare a man and see what what you need trust. I mean the difference kevin is the difference between then and now is it then you had people that had courage you had people that had some thought and you know even stalin i would say ok i mean if you look at sort of the soviet ideology dealing with the bush wild west and you know because it the world was absolutely shots when the the announcement of the nazi so be a great that was made public i mean because after decades of demonizing capitalism and all that someone had to flip on a dime and say for our survival were going to have to work with these 2 characters you know roosevelt and result and churchill here i mean the point is is that theres a big ship ok theres no bishan today these people are Walking Around like blind cats go ahead the last 20 seconds go to you well i think there really isnt or why we cannot agree now with the west is precisely the same i do what would let me make up for what with your statement in 1919 quote your eye before that it was an invasion of the soviet union what the receiver at that talk about National Socialism youre going negative sense we didnt talk naziism s. And i deal with you and that made rational was defense. In the same way now we dont want to believe in one un aggressor west and i go with that same yes it would be nice if we present in there but it is there a very good point gentlemen we have run out of time i want to thank my guests most here in moscow and in cork and i think i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r. T. C. A next time remember. Join me every thursday on the alex simon show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business im showbusiness ill see you then. The world is driven by dream shaped by one person. Who dares thinks. We dare to ask. Ive interviewed limits of you and world and rape is a very very traumatizing thing to have happen but ive never seen trauma like ive seen from women who are veterans who have suffered military sexual trauma. I cannot remember how many times a young female marine that had been raped or sexually assaulted told me that she looked at these guys as your brother or the suspect as your brother its a kin to what happens in a family with incest. Because you know in the military when we were functioning at our best piece of unit with brothers and sisters of the band of brothers and sisters i mean we are family when that ball and of trust is violated. The wound penetrates to the very most inner part of ones soul one psyche. I have this folder that i keep i have all my boot camp letters in it for my mom and my sister and. People and. I was just going through some of this stuff and im like whats the you know i opened it up im like oh my god. My suicide letter. Bomb im sorry for the grease that you must feel. Just because im gone physically doesnt mean i will be there spiritually i truly feel that god will take me without question even though i took my own life. Ive had the most broken thoughts and dreams
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