To stop this and more im joined by my guest to meet me bob its in moscow he is a political analyst and editor of you know just me internet project and in court we have Geoffrey Robertson he is americas professor of history at University College cork and a member of the Royal Irish Academy his latest book is churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the 2nd world war are gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want house appreciate it or i let me 1st go to a demon here in moscow you know dma here we go again this is almost like our tradition with our calling jeffrey we do this every single year commemorating victory in europe over fascism and for every single year that we do it we find ourselves in more and more in a revisionist mode here i mean as i understand as were sitting down doing our chat right now is it facebook has. And a colorized version of the of the soviet banner over europe the very very iconic one of showing victory in europe and you know ive searched around its a true story meaning what in the world is going on here the black and white version seems to be acceptable the color when not are there different meanings or is this a revision and sell and why in the world would anyone want to deny that iconic photograph its like the sailor kissing the young lady on times square in victory over japan i mean what is going on here go ahead well i dont know which exactly of which were acting exactly. We mean here more likely its their image or west obvious old europe which are not their advantage or rights which was basically the central issue of Central Power in the nazi germany so for decades there was no problem with a slat you know. Its a familiar image its like that you might or american soldiers would you not a flag. In the pacific during the war with japan you were going to cause a scandal here well basically a lot of russians on all thinking whats going on why that discrepancy and you had all 3 i mean the Jeffrey Roberts go ahead jeff you know everybody here this is exactly the photograph were talking about i. Think my goodness and here he has the props even for the program he had no idea it was going to ask is going to thats exactly it just to tell my office at the University Im going to get must mean that its a matter. Yeah so are we russians who are thinking why you describe in russia now is certainly. That the country oh well the west then the soviet union i will war well of course style we have a pluralistic edge if you do. History you know right now in russia you can hear and you can read any kind of stuff about the world war 2 from an apple down to you know stalinist revisionist you can get everything that makes us different from the west now were just one narrative seems to be related in the last year and my explanation is that the problem is with the new west and i go with you because its impossible that the same sad story would suddenly happen in separate independent countries that you would count that sexual for Marshall Cornish removed from prague and the czechs say it was just the local authorities who decided to do it you know then you have. You know facebook removed the scrawled on the cow right version of this for the facebook is based in the United States alas its not only against russia at the name of Franklin Delano roosevelt was removed from everywhere in poor unless people heard about. And there are every year rules about is still a National Hero in the night you know and thats the medicine just you know did the thing it says here i do it seems to me and i think jim is on to something it is an ideological approach to all this but we cant deny its simply ludicrous to didnt 9 the existence of historical figures now the difference is that glorify them ok i get that all right but you know its almost like the the iconic picture of yeltsin where you have you know Stalin Churchill and roosevelt and you know in our early in the in this post cold war environment you know somehow that is sacrilegious because youre putting stalin on stage here and im here to let me go to jeff i want you to can only get going on the point is here is that history is something we should learn from it i mean its just not a moral play in the presence go ahead you know what 1st announcement is not being done this historical revisionism because a long way back i mean almost as soon as the war has ended its history has been revised its going to launch you look for reasons so its nothing new to us knows it the present time its were in the face period of historic revisionism as you call it see connect it with the currents russias relations west and look at all of that current so you. Agree one point that david might look very much greater than russia these days you can say anything you like that he could actually pull any kind of extreme revisionist views anything at all shes actually much more serious bites for wool in russia than death there at the recent west but having said that you know it does more than one narrative in the west not treat we shouldnt exaggerate. The county influence of the western liberal me here and western liberal or at least we shouldnt underestimate too to the extent to which among popular consciousness is quite reasonable secret witness of the true facts of the will or wont watch in particular was. To throw somebody play going to read homey. Ok well but we didnt hear that jeff and then why are these it seems to me that their hate for the for the the majority of people the majority of media there is a new revisionist a narrative being pushed here but at the same time youre saying that among the population theres a level of awareness i think thats true but i think its getting smaller and smaller i used to teach at the university of california and you know young theyre supposed to be the cream of the crop and their knowledge was very scant and i have to worry that its even worse now because we have saving private ryan and you know we had i think yesterday the white house really giving credit to the United States you came for a victory over the nazis not obviously not mentioning a soviet union and one has to question is that intentional or is it just lack of knowledge finish up on that point jeff. If there are some countries countries now feel United States its probably a straight bat case of our expected oh no not only history will be starker or vicious narrative narrows originally to discredit comedy is just such a congressman naziism totalitarian lowest common kind of state nowadays across its political function is to discredit russia it is good just ready to see an end to create a contrast between the west marks in russian authoritarianism through a so you know guilt by association of russia with the soviet union with day to totalitarian pasta so thats whats going to kind of question this. Hour to this continent fish but its any right now its in poland says recognized. Lets actually be part of the contest yes about the slums and well i think i mean youve known me for a very very long time and thats always been my gripe is that its very difficult to talk about anything related to russia because its always about context and if you dont have basic facts then you dont have any context ok and thats the. Difficulty and discussing all this i mean you know there are the different narratives about the war ended 3 as a result of that war i mean ive always taken the position is that most of the soldiers that died didnt die for communism they died for mother russia they died to protect their families their tradition their language says the bill is ation the eye of the ideological stunt you can put its been there if you can put it there but i dont think thats the majority of the pitch opinion of the people that are there my opinion go ahead well i think there are people died for her right your reasons you know defend and russia and defending the soviet union not only russians but i think the main reason was so why well you know the people realize that if hitler wins im not going to survive and. What happened later was that. Well crude shocking to power hugh ford style in years and by stunning it means i mean the problem of the character of star is the fall in basically our crew shot removed style and from all their narrative about the war in the same way it started removing hyun or trotsky from the narrative about the 1970 revolution so what happened on the wooden was now freedom team now you can be astonished you can say that you think stalin you know was very important that he won that war you can be and i study and the majority or if you want russian dead and theres a lot of movies about the war being made now and each of them mentions repression so well in the west they say or study has been. What is being started back that is such a big lie. Because you know the way crucial congressional ford study is worse than it is you know i was born in 1970 i remember that i 1st saw a study and teacher when i was 13 in one 1803. 00 on the windshield of a car you know that was wrong you know whatever we think about stalin as a figure it was wrong to remove his image to remove all memory about him and now the west wants us to repeat eat the same thing you know to demonize the earth and there im returning to this i dont want to cause the nyquil the more that ive always told the west point out to liberals i wouldnt call it our western i you would you why because its not in the western tradition its very if you want and they should experience you know shakespeare has dimensional characters and the problem with them or the western narrative is that it does not allow them mention of characters and there its. Narrative that it was the same time if data thats true. And theyre weak in this war it was he is nor it was he has the will power it was he hasnt made it to well im sitting here we go the beer there is the debate there i would say they deserve a union on the war in spite of stalin ok but if he were just demonstrating to our viewers that there is a debate here i see jeff flock being in the in his Little Corner their heads every very good operate of everything afraid not look at it equal i dont know i think i just. Used to change Michael Stipe last yes thought he was a brutal dictator but he was also good to see the most equal posted something. Like well. Known site or well the west the west western democracy well hitler that observe a 100 times a day but right there then i can talk to you statements in that book ok well i mean it good that will keep were just printed on it is a he made a very important part the whitish contest is historical revisionism she is swedish not by producing a cunt political or large to china just a way to contest it with the start of truth and we can start a true future by context contradiction constant stuff going on he might not like so yeah we have to talk down to sort of victory and such but we also have to focus on the nazi pact we. Were going to do after the break were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on remembering victory in europe i mean 5 years ago today. 1st of all that sugar has created excess body fat in the majority of people worldwide and that impairs immunity and therefore makes us more vulnerable to infection and during this period when were more isolated in our all. We. Want to eat more sugar thats really the worst thing people can do to janets coming in is is clearly is is just very clear that its those that her. Symptoms of other facts of the outcome or abilities and its those individuals that are coming into the hospitals its those individuals that are suddenly leaving us. And its ultimately because they just have all of this regulation it was like there were medical health. Time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability its very important to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport sustainability stay number man on a more equitable and sustainable well. They claim their production is completely hamas. Because. It does not the Companies Want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away and this is Something Else just as he went any minute i mean look. This is the moon you missed me do me man im stunned seemed to be based on just looks so good and. Well that across town where all things are considered im Peter Lavelle reminder were talking about victory over passions some in europe 75 years ago. Ok lets go back to the im a here in moscow here right before we went to the break jeffrey brought up the nazi soviet pact of course this is a hotly debated today and with good reason i would say because it kind of flushes out the historical facts the jeff was getting into before were into that you know given you and i have talked about this so many times here and and as you pointed out to me very eloquently yes that pact that exists and there were secret protocols we know that is part of the historical record but the way its being framed right now is that theres something the soviet union is culpable any unique way because of that agreement but that isnt so most countries in the end europe had some kind of Security Agreement treaty with nazi germany before hostilities broke out in september 1039 you know where im going with this go ahead jim well you are absolutely right now. That our well the Russian Orthodox church recently a state said that these who or what the punishment were seems and what people were angry and you may sad how calm you know all all of these millions of people were simple well no but diplomats diplomats representing these countries yes because basically every county in europe with the exception may go through life in some way and look what happened in czechoslovakia yeah ok soundbite cooperate with. Between 1033 and then make you what you want so its if you morals if you want how you dont create evil without huge wants it wants us we have. Been you know this. Like you we dont have it youre all. Our study and your shape in france you know we can study and event drop and that is reproduced now in billions and billions of corpus but we have this nature or Churchill Roosevelt and started you mentioned it well im very concerned about the speech because the west and i you all idjit well even that resent dont ask graham evidence because you know here is roosevelt and judge you see them next to that mill and you know or they will simply proceed with that because that will not suit their narrative you know the problem with radical ideologies and the west now as a regular. Is there they twist the past what the political interest will be they removed i dont let it evidence i thought it to be explained in terms i thought and thats what the soviet state with history the future is certain but the past is not exactly a lot of things that we are now saying of thought crimes in the west now there is no sexier subsonic right now in russia but there are more and more kinds of thought crimes in the west and the problem is that these new western i go if youre this are to liberalism or no member is what we call it it or parades by images by hollywood year image you know stalin is the will and so that means that he is doing what the war started and he too are to blame for the war to megalomaniacs i have been reading it in dolans own books now in people seem to disregard the war would not have been possible without millions of people preparing for the william lee so the problem is much bigger than just to make of the many acts but this is the way more than western aid ordinary moves its amos they always find a leader whom they demonize you know our star or Saddam Hussein you know. They say you know we murdered him basically ok they dont say mother we removed him and then everything. Defined so they may try to apply the same crime to ordinary the world war 2 which was a very costly story very complicated. But thats why are you concerned about this its your study and im trying to show it shows that basically people very different beliefs would come to an agreement and fight on be evil and i dont think thats what i mentioned thats what i meant and what i did production we had a pandemic we have different good leaders and different political systems different worldviews but this pandemic doesnt care what your politics are but we cant have Global Solidarity and im not that many people think this quest to work internationalism because globalism is it that it doesnt go far i mean you. Have been go ahead yes our it will actually fucking michael on this on the show but you know my very 1st book which of course of the 30 years ago was called young honey a lot still has its about the nazis are back now you know right he was right when you say everyone is business with the nazis in a line 90 it could very light still sort it b. C. Such as you know. Dismemberment check check check their list there is something that this kind of unique about the nazi thought that is no equivalents to that pact any secret project did have some rather radical consequences not get getting away from it you know excluding red occupation opponents. September 9th im not ok you can say that the territories that were taken but red army wont really postsurgery as they western or Russia Ukraine or united to retrieve. You know to this certainly a case to be made 0. 80 of the nazis in the nazis were attacked and its a very complicated set of historical events which unfolds as a result of the leading into the chilly beijing. Jeffrey jamie youre not here and i dont think you need a defense i say i wouldnt i wouldnt phrase it that way a defense of it when i am i would say is if there is a reasonable explanation to understand why a bad thing happened because if you look at munich you have the western powers basically destroying the post world war one International System unilaterally destroying a sovereign state which they had implicitly and explicitly said they would defend and then you go all the way up to august 39th and you get a more under regis form of it but it is precedent is set for me its the same price and it may be even if you just have to agree i mean thats why i really get too sick and tired of people moralizing about an International System that the western powers had corrupted before but to outsiders nazi germany and the soviet union were involved in it ok this isnt the way back you know and then again i want to make sure i i dont think youd have to defend it you have to understand it go ahead offense at this very like yeah thats a very reasonable and actually cause simple explanation for the nazis and he says hes a. True next ali so to create some kind of you know. Grand alliance i found. Peace but surely the spice of that style in turn to this very to do with this real politic you know this you can describe it as me and i. Saw it playing. It was the only chance hes not fully did. There is a kind of action which he became pretty the point is you cant the west cant moralize over that when itself was it culpable for the destruction and i would say the precursor to what would then become an inevitable war i mean they were the remarkable thing if you look at the historical record isnt it hillary was ill basically shocked that chamberlain. Would agree to breaking up over well you know breaking apart subject as they have use of these people to get there theyre really going to sell them out i mean and then months later the entire country was about an audience kind of more i mean if you want to use the moral dimension well this is the moral character youre dealing up and start instantly believes that youre trying to play the british and french and do the. Trick right which is like well. Ok ok so the nazis are active their last mortal actually at the historical sense was the grand Alliance Yeah the you just will want to grab a glance you know to be truthful attraction in some sense you know you know the networks and it worked go ahead and look its the most successful sac needle out city history shoot concerts demijohn been well for us that since work like in paradoxes here and now geoffrey has just said that you know we didnt think through our study and see western democracies in the same way this fact trust without it i dont think that there are no absolute necessary union in 1000 when you or i would be possible because because of the pact the soviet union has what states and western ukraine inside itself these very hostile ancient yes you know which remain out on the world much more recently in the late eightys as soon as they tried and at that unit you can express this themselves be needed it turned against my school that if the west doesnt like that back so why they should return we want to point. And and live their lives through reading out how hes doing it with me without meals but our let me take a very provocative look at you know you can make parallels with that there you know a lot of ways you know you can say theyre not russia and the United States and the west and you know cannot agree on fighting coronavirus in the same way they couldnt it read in 1039 when fighting hitler despite his or your patient of or stricture so i think he is or he has sent a semi but why did that happen well because. The United States and the u. K. The view would. Rush out of the soviet union reading that if you would well now the United States and the u. K. Are viewing russia and china very near it they dont want aid from china from china makes them angry you know its you know theyre talking about propaganda well theyve got games youve got plenty to protect themselves keep going let me think maybe i can jump in here peter glad that there have got sawyer ok look you get from starting to get a move later churches something gets not what contemporary politicians actually confront this trip trust me for facing now you know if they want this matter of Political Choice you compare a man and see what the important what you need. Now you can mean the difference kevin is the difference between then and now is it then you had people that had courage you had people that had some for and you know it even stalin i would say ok i mean if you look at sort of the soviet ideology dealing with the bush wild west and you know because it the world was absolutely shots when the the announcement of the nazi so be a great that was made public i mean because after decades of demonizing capitalism and all that someone had to flip on a dime and say for our survival were going to have to work with these 2 characters you know roosevelt and result and churchill here i mean the point is is that theres a big ship ok theres no bishan today these people are Walking Around like blind cats go ahead the last 20 seconds go to you well i think there really isnt or why we cannot agree now with the west is precisely the same i do what would you let me make up or what would your statement you 939 conclude here i mean for that it was an invasion of the soviet union who want to receive it the talk about National Socialism youre going negative sense we didnt talk naziism s. And i and that made rational was defense. In the same way now we dont want to believe in an un aggressor western microchip that some use it would be nice if we present in there but it is there a very good point gentlemen we have run out of time i want to thank my guests most here in moscow and in cork and i think i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r. T. C. A next time remember. 6 kaiser financial survival guide. Customers go buy your dish supplies. Then help well reduce a lower. Tax thats undercutting but whats good for market is not good for the global economy. You cannot be both with the yeah you like. Mom. First so