Transcripts For RT On Contact 20240713

Against those who speak this truth joining me in the studio to discuss this colonial project is rashid holiday the edward cited professor of modern arab studies at Columbia University and the author of the 100 years war on palestine the history of settler colonization and resistance 1917 to 2017 so you pull from the historical record from documents and make i think absolutely compelling case that from the moment of zionist settlement in palestine they knew exactly what they were doing they knew what the end gold was which theyve largely achieved. And that was surprising for me as you know from what you dug up in their store of whole record how frank you know how clear sighted they were from the beginning haim weissman and others and so talk about that well they were clear sighted and they were fraying but they were more frank in private than they well public because in public they were quite disingenuous really right i mean the british restricted them to a formulation called a National Home for the jewish people in palestine that was not there or a valid objective which was a sovereign jewish state control over immigration which would have a jewish majority in all of palestine. Would imply that entailed ethnic cleansing because at the beginning think you have a figure in the early 20th century jews were 6 percent for 6 percent 917 yeah and 94 percent i mean whats always i lived in israel what always has struck me is this historical amnesia where from the 7th century when. Palestine becomes part of you know in a muslim entity all the way up to 948 is utterly a racist for a historical record. Well thats thats i mean theres a theres a manufactured forgetting if you want theres a creation of an alternative narrative part of it related to the biblical narrative and part of it just manufactured but the plant that the that was empty precisely is no way to lend lend without a people for people without a land and so on and so forth you make i think a very important point that that is always. Part of colonisation exactly right i mean if you read what the earliest zionist leaders say but in the end they were only any project if you read what the earliest zionist leaders say they are talking the language of every settler colonial project you point. Jabotinsky hurtful they sound like i quote lord curzon here i quote this or that french or british colony colonizer there and it is exactly the same rhetoric the same language the same logic precisely and but theres a striking difference as you point out on this project of colonization which is really at its inception done on behalf of the british the the zionist become a tool they venture a break with the british right well they use the british and the british use them yes although at the end the british have had enough of them although in the end they decided they got the 1st of all they have had enough theyve gotten what they need from the british secondly the british have decided as you say that theyve had enough of them that they need to fight world war 2 in the arab world and they can have all the arbs running them and finally they have bigger and better patrons in the United States Russia Soviet Union whats interesting is that you say that this project of colonization has an important difference in terms of the indigenous population whats the difference well there are a couple differences the 1st is unlike some settler colonial projects which which are based on the utter elimination of the native population or its complete subjugation of north america australia and so on and unlike others where the idea was exploitation of the indigenous population zionism had no use for the palestinians right it also didnt entirely eliminate them there was no genocide there was ethnic cleansing as you suggest because to turn a majority arab country into a majority jewish country had to get rid of a large proportion as much as possible of the arab inhabitants the other difference is that unlike other settler colonial movements this was not an extension of the metropole. Zionism was a project for the jewish people its also a National Project at the same time its a settler colonial project and unlike say the french in algeria were just an extension of france or the 1st british settlers in north america or an extension of the British Crown these were people who had a connection to britain they use Britain Britain use them but britain was not their metropole in fact they were able to move from metropole to metropole zionism is based so in multiple places in carrying out this project of settling palestine so that relationship with the british which. The early scientists understood i forget who it was you were quoting whether it was weisman or other they knew that they needed an Imperial Force behind them they all knew that hurts all knew that and thats why he met the kaiser and thats why he went to the french and thats why you went to savannah i mean the out of insult on vice minister thats why he went to the british war cabinet i think the person youre thinking of is jabotinsky who said we cant do the only honest one among them well he was im sorry to be frank in public he was frank in public and in private right right then go in and vitamin and hurt or very frank in their private diary hurtful says were going to spirit the population of crawled across the borders he never says that in a letter to one of my ancestors where he says oh were not going to do anything to the population but jabotinsky was blunt in public and in private and he said we need an iron wall behind which we can create this this this project of ours they all im quoting from your book they all knew perfectly well that there was no way to reconcile zionisms claims on palestine and its explicit aim of jewish state hood and sovereignty there with the rights and well being of the countrys indigenous inhabitants. Even when i was when i lived in jerusalem. They paid lip service to those right here youre talking about from the moment from its a very inception. Well i quote a letter that heard so wrote to one of my ancestors a great great great uncle at the beginning of the book which you weave throughout the book which may write effective right and i mean its very clear that they completely ignore the idea that theres a people there right they assume that they can either fool them or get rid of them so some way or other and the letter is full of the same disingenuous propaganda that you hear from his reza were going to make their lives better or their lives are better than anywhere else or whatever at the same time as their pop tell puppy lation is being displaced its a death it is being denied it is its resources are being taken its completely disingenuous but unfortunately i think believed by many people well one of the themes that runs throughout the history is the essential the turning of the majority population into non people you know and this brings up another thing that i try and stress throughout this book this is not just a war by the Zionist Movement on the palestinians its a movement its a war i should say really declared by great powers you know the ratio of the palestinians is really the work of the british in the 1st instance and later of the United States and other powers at a later stage what it why i mean so what the british of course occupy palestine which is part of the Ottoman Empire are in world war 1917 now and the marches on drew sloan. What is what is the british to because they certainly have colonies in india and everywhere else. What is that that the british are attempting to do to kind of you know with the Zionist Movement what is that all right well the basic goal is strategic the british want a buffer on the eastern border of egypt they want a connection between the mediterranean and the gulf as strategic and this is a decision that they reached before world war one in fact this was my doctoral dissertation back in the early seventies i figured this out but to achieve this it was very difficult for them to simply say the other imperialist powers like the french and the russians were just going to take it so for them zionism was a useful tool it was they figured this would be a colonial settler project which they could say were were supporting for you know charitable reasons but which would in effect be that buffer on the eastern border of egypt and which would be a sort of a stronghold for british power and yet its more a little more complicated because the british do the british mandate i mean they do control palestine directly in the same way the french controlled lebannon up until 48 right so you do have british control. And and yet this Zionist Movement becomes the tool to do what. Well to establish a a. National home for the jewish people which will in effect be a sort of a garrison which the british the british had the illusion that the zionists would always be grateful to them in 139. 00 the you lose that illusion because when they change their policy and they stop favoring the zionists the zionists turn against them in yet another patron yet as you point out in the book during world war 2 the british build Jewish Military units and they although many. Palestinians actually fight in the british army there they they never. Coalesce in a unit of their own right which. In the in contrast to the jewish brigade right british create and and so by 948 the british despite their distance from the Zionist Movement have given them the military knowledge and organization and weaponry precisely eventually take over in fact i mean you put your finger on a key episode which is the creation of the jewish brigade but even before that in putting down the great great revolt of 936 talk about that because i wasnt aware until i read your book of the extent how bloody it was i mean what you say 10 percent of 10 percent of the adult male population is wounded yeah exiled or the president of yeah listing an arab and so you had essentially a coalition between what it was 100000 british troops 100000 british troops against about 300000 adult males so one soldier or policeman for every 3 palestinian adult males armed jewish well thats the with thats the point i was getting to exactly what they did world war 2 is crucial but even before that in putting down the revolt they arm and train vast numbers of zionist militiamen some of them into commando units called night squads headed by a man called orde wingate who is a hero in israel he was and who is described he later on exactly was in burma he is later on described as a psychopath yes he is the one who carries out targeted assassination was not carried a bible like a fanatic it was you know a nasty character much beloved in israel and according to the website of the Israel Defense forces his spirit animates the israeli are well that might be true i think it is actually targeted assassinations murdering people at night blowing up their houses over their heads or taught them all of that and you you argue in the book that the the so this was a Popular Uprising not well organized exactly a Popular Uprising 3637 by up to 39 to 39 by palestinians who kind of figured out. What was happening a little belatedly the only revolts against the British Empire that succeed are the ones right after world war one the irish get their independence the iraqis and the egyptians and the iranians managed to limit british power and in fact the iranians pushed the british out of iran. The egyptians and the iraqis similarly limit british power britains force to grant the symbol of independence the palestinians for reasons that i go into in the book dont really get to that point until much too late by the eve of world war 2 britain is not going to allow a rule of revolt to succeed which is why they bring in divisions of troops and there are a. F. To put down this revolt very very bloodily when we come back we will continue our conversation about the colonial roots of the Israeli Palestinian conflict with professor Rashid Khalidi. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy. Let it be an arms race. Spearing dramatic developments only im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. Time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability its very important to accelerate transitions to sustainable transport sustainability. The more equitable and sustainable. They claim their production is completely hamas. Because. Companies want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away this is something this. Thats deep into any mans i mean. This is i mean you missed me dude im stunned. Underskirts looks so good. Welcome back on contact we continue our conversation about the Israeli Palestinian conflict with professor Rashid Khalidi so were talking before the break about that postwar period right after the end of world war 2 and theres a huge well i would say you know animosity then between the Zionist Movement and their what have been their british sponsors well this is because of the white paper of 139 explained with that i will the british have until this point unceasingly favor that the zionists the terms of the mandate essentially empower them to create a para state a state elected assembly a Foreign Ministry a government control of education the holes overturn it of government structures that the palestinians are denied the passenger that i precisely so one side is given political and National Rights the other side is given civil and religious rights i. E. Nothing in the way of selfgovernment at the same time the british as we just mentioned have armed especially in the 3639. 00 period arm the zionists so comes the comes to world war 2 and the british suddenly realize were going to have to fight this war in the arab world just like we fought a large part of world war one here we have people who really hate us because they have been following in their press encouraged of course by the italians and the germans the atrocities that our soldiers have been committing in palestine against the palestinian arabs. The arabs might actually be helpful if we win them over to our side so the british the british and the act of typical hypocrisy switch from one limit. Support for the zionists 2 they promises to the palestinians theyll be independence in 10 years theyll be limits on immigration and so far thats the white paper design is of course were infuriated and understandably they were given to understand that a National Home for the jewish people meant as soon as youre a majority you get selfdetermination and statehood and all you have to do will hold the doors of immigration open you become a majority and then you will drown them with numbers youll be stronger and richer and so on and so forth and the country is yours suddenly the british are telling them no not quite we have to fight world war 2 we need to stop the arabs and so the Zionist Movement in its in its ingenuity goes in search of new allies where they find they find the United States and the soviet union and thats the genesis of the partition but youre right i thought he had failed to read this shift in global power precisely as they had as they did in subsequent periods 48. Huge campaign of ethnic cleansing. Acts of greed just genocide. I wouldnt call it genocide i would call it ethnic cleansing with lets call the massacres massacres repeated massacres are exaggerated massacres are better than that and just one point about this that the key. Population and the key ethnic cleansing takes place before the british and thats right takes place before the state of israel is there before an arab soldier sets foot in palestine 300000 people the entire population of haifa 60000 where you have your family jaffa truck tire population of jeff where my grandfather right right another 60000 people the entire population of arab west jerusalem large part of us or some is jewish large part was at 30000 all these people are expelled before you know the 15th before the british leave before the state is created before the arab armies enter and so the exodus of palestinians under bombardment and after a few key massacres like deadliest seen in april this is takes a while and then wiped out a whole village was a i forget the number they killed about 100 ppi 100 people mostly women and children exactly exactly so what happens in 48 is it is it ethnic cleansing over over a longer period of Time Starting in the spring as i said before the british leave and continuing a during the war between israel and the arab armies that enter palestine and become involved although just to carry out because you talk about in the book thats kind of a misnomer because the arab armies of israel likes to mythologize that they fought off how many was a 7 iraqis or why dont you argue that most of them didnt enter. Saudi arabia and yemen didnt have real modern armies Lebanese Army never cross the frontier the jordanian in iraq your army is are under jordanian control and jordan has come to an agreement with the Zionist Movement before the war King Abdullah the King Abdullah has met with musharraf and with gold in my ear and has and has been told by his british people who pay and. Officer his army you cannot go beyond the boundaries of the arab state under partition so the jordanian iraqi army is never invade israel they enter the area allocated to the arab state under partition and defend what is now the west bank which is oh you have a scientist complicity precise well at the beginning exactly they end up fighting over the road to jerusalem and some other areas but its essentially the throw then there are the israelis got shellacked by the way. Jordanian army happened to be a very well trained well in the militia british run british officers pasha they had combat experience in world war 2 and the officers at all fought in world war 2 so it was like a modern army a modern European Army up against the israeli army which was a very competent force but not of the same level so lets go on 48 but you know. You youve laid the foundation i think you know its incontrovertibly the documents and the Historical Records that you cite they know what theyre headed for. How does that play out once the state of israel is created when 1st of all according to partition was a zionist role as opposed to it was a 17 percent of us to have 55 percent 55 of the total by arab state was supposed to be 40 something and they were supposed to be a corpus separate of that and that is not the way it worked out no they end up with 78 percent by the end of the war having soundly defeated the 2 major arab armies that are really fighting the major dainian in the egyptian i mean you cite in the book which we dont have time to go through you know of what you call kind of seminal moment the royal road 67. Except but just lay out what happened since so they know what they have to do which is. Displace or marginalize the palestinians how does that all roll forward from 48 when israel was created well 2 things firstly the superpowers that were responsible for the partition resolution United States soviet union are mainly interested in the creation of a jewish state that partition plan calls for americas theres throw in there yes i did know from the book that stalin thought. That the jewish you know so the list were all going to align with moscow and then when he woke up and realized they werent here years later through it a little too late exactly. The stalin was obsessed with the british and saw the arab states as aligned with britain is obsessed with the british since the russian civil war well it was another story good reasons thats another story they sent troops in iraq troops they sent money they said they finance the white armies and so on and so. So he was he was obsessed with the british as as churchill was obsessed with bolshevism right i mean the 2 of them were a para in that respect what what happens is that the 2 superpowers that had basically rammed the partition resolution through the General Assembly cared only for the creation of a jewish state why. In that jewish when the arab state thats mandated by the partition plan is strangled in its cradle by the british the jordanians and especially the israelis they dont lift a finger theres no provision for forcing these powers to leave back off theres no implementation provision in the general some of the resolution an arab state isnt created because these 3 countries dont want in the 2 superpowers dont care they want a jewish state i mean truman i quote truman in the book is talking to american diplomats talking to american diplomats and say i have a lot of people lot of the statue and care about this and stalin as you say had his own iraq insurgents so the palestinians are again disappeared as they were disappeared by the Balfour Declaration and then 17 there disappeared there they are disappeared in the wake of the 48 war and during the war when theyre there physically 2 thirds of them are physically driven out there are fully disappear from the historical record exactly people turning to drone peters mythical you know from time immemorial which was a foundational text before that for many quote unquote scholars of huge by israel which claim that the land was empty its still in print is it you know its one of the great fabrications of the 20th century still in print. Protocols of the elders of palestine you could call it an enormous. So what we see when i lived in jerusalem today colic was the mayor he was building sewers and there did seem to be i mean maybe im wrong i knew abi bommel in the old zionist figures. There was a kind of keep them happy down at the farm kind of attitude. Certainly they didnt have full rights are a thing right which appears not appear which has shifted dramatically with a racist Like Netanyahu it would you say thats a fair. Characterization it is fair but i think that most labor zionists of course was a labor zionist as was teddy call it most labor zionists didnt really believe in 2 states for 2 people in one know without question so as you say i think they had a more benevolent idea of how to rule over the arabs that certainly was to have color i mean there were instances in which color and people who worked for him like miron ben ministry actually helped arab families and in the case of a property of ours it that they were someone was trying to take over actually. Going to see chief rabbi was trying to take some of our property to attach to a yeshiva he was building in which he did build collects people helped us so there was a much more benevolent attitude but the idea of the quality yeah the idea of the 2 National Entities with equal rights never occurred to any any of them whether labor zionists and certainly not to the revisionists who become could and of course 67 they take gaza the israelis on the west bank. And. What happens since is a kind of administrative ethnic cleansing they make life especially if you have the financial wherewithal to get out there out there right and then they create the lets call them what they are ghettos in the West Bank Gaza is often called an open air prison it is it is a ghetto or a large ghetto in the world one of the most have populated and one of the most heavily populated. But the the the israeli state begins to the mass begins to fall well several things happen 1st of all the colonization of the west bank is a reprise of the whole policy of taking land and pushing the people you know out as best possible and thats happening in the west bank as we speak you know its been happening really since 167 without interruption under different regimes with different objectives but the same process has been underway the 2nd thing that happens is that over time in the war in 1902 when israel invaded lebanon during the 1st intifada starting in 1987 it becomes clear that the myth that israel is david and the arabs are glad. Is in fact a reversal of roles the palestinians. Israel is going well we still saw that last falls weve got to stop there but its still this idea that that israels existential existence is under threat from right palestinians in gaza or anywhere else anyway so that was University Professor rashid holiday about his new book 100 years war in palestine the history of subtler colonization and resistance 191722000. 6. Thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the countrys military a decision that has shattered lives every bunking to a complete. Mystery to be instructive here you know im told to shut up but they kill me and i see how destroyed my life any screamed at me me me coming my own even it means birthing if you take into account that women dont. Report because of the extreme retaliation and its probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military rape is a very very traumatizing thing to have happen but ive never seen trauma like ive seen from women who are veterans who have suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished dont be offended and almost 10 year career which shows very invested in and i gave a sex offender who was not even going to justice or put on the registry this is simply an issue of our and violent male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there to prey upon whether thats men or women. Thats a crime to china. And the saudis are trying to disrupt the american a shell industry oh my god imagine that theyre trying to disrupt the american shell industry. Joined me every thursday on the elec so i wouldnt sure when ill be speaking to get us to the world of politics. Im sure. Hello there im an 11 and i watching him broadcasting from our to Americas National news headquarters here in washington these things i want to welcome our viewers from across the nation and all around the world here are your top stories tonight 1st doctors in new york are puzzled after 15 children many of whom had the flu on a virus are now exhibiting mysterious syndrome in some details. Full report then venezuelas president is blasting the United States for its failed attempt at another who they say in a televised speech Nicolas Maduro shows the world prove to americans now in custody and several states are in phase one of their reopening of their a car