Transcripts For RT CrossTalk 20240713

In the fall of the berlin wall im joined by my guest John Laughlin in paris he is a political scientist and historian in washington we have harold james hes a professor of history and International Affairs at Princeton University as well as author and editor of a number of books including when the wall came down reactions to german unification and in cork we cross to Geoffrey Roberts he is emeritus professor of history at University College cork and a member of the Royal Irish Academy all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated let me go to john and paris 1st i mean 30 its been 30 years now believe it or not because i remember it so vividly when it happened a few months before i had been living in poland for a number of years and an avid student of Eastern European communist affairs at the time john 30 years on what is its meaning because i look at cursory reviews of you know that and commenting on it. It is the peoples power the rise of the spring of nations in Eastern Europe kind of a narrative that is very western i suppose but i lived there it was it i dont have that same kind of feel for it ok though having said that im very glad those communist regimes are gone and the war go ahead john. You know well like you peter i lived through those events very directly like you i was studying Eastern European studies at oxford at that point i spent that summer in 1909 in romania and in hungary and indeed in september 89 i was in west berlin and was there when the 1st east berlin as arrived in west berlin having driven through czechoslovakia hungry austria and and the whole of germany so i have a very strong memory of it as well i would make 2 points the 1st is that none of it would have happened without gorbachev decision to pull the rug on the Eastern European communist regimes that was decision he took in june and which he announced to the german chancellor helmut kohl at the time and all the events that we remember now the jangling of keys in Wenceslas Square in prague the the top is the candlelight the songs and so on all that was nothing but operetta it was political operetta it was froth on the on the on the tidal wave of history but it was not the cause of the tidal wave of history the cause im afraid was much more basic and much more realistic it was the decision as i say of the soviet union no longer to support. Those regimes and once the support of moscow had been withdrawn they collapsed so it was not the triumph of people in the streets of berlin or whatever it was instead of just 2 political decision taken by moscow which had the inevitable consequences that we know about ok like you only lighted. Ok i mean i did notice that harold was disagreeing with you go ahead errol then washington you know i really do think it has much deeper roots it has roots that go back into the 1950 s. And 1906. It is but for me that really transformational story was the papacy of john paul the 2nd and the mobilization you saw of the demonstration of millions of pows yet. People really united against the case against the regime and from that moment on the regime lacked any legitimacy in addition to that theres a systematic economic failure and its not that gorbachev is dealing with stuff that gorbachev has to respond to the the basic sentiment is there in the streets of force or its there in the streets of prague and its very very clear i think im ok i think its completely wrong i think of it as well how to roll hereto ok but harold i agree i spent a lot of time in poland and one thing on jang on jeff hang on one thing is that i would tend to agree that maybe kind of split the difference with john here is that i think and i know that there was a lot of people were disgruntled with the political and Economic System they had in poland many were that is true ok but with the pappas the of john paul the 2nd United People and what they didnt like it wasnt where they wanted to go that was very unclear that there wasnt even a glimmer in anyones eye of where they should go they just didnt know what they did they didnt know what they didnt like jeff uncork champion a lot a lot of Different Things he and again i think we got to we had a time delay go ahead jack i like to maybe maybe yes go ahead well i think greeks agree to certain extent with both john and with highroad yes i agree i agree with joe on the goal the child was a key factor in 1000 with the globe which of this is not peoples revolution in 1009 in the senate i dont agree with you on that goal which will pull the rug from under the east coast European Congress route regimes or at least that was the intention go to chelsea intention was to save the comic book to save comedies and to revitalize it and what he was trying to do was to recovery. Stripping Congress Leaders to actually to do the necessary reforms on the other hand its not just about gold which of the day was a kind of mass kind of Popular Uprising in various countries in Eastern Europe and that mass uprising that peoples revolution was critical in pushing events in the in a particular direction such likes and i agree. With highroads yes i was 2 factors is to go but the revolution from above is led by colwich off and is the revolution from below that comes from the street ok and you. Had. Thanks i mean obviously its difficult to discuss such big issues in the short term needed for television the reason why i said what i said is that on the 13th of june 1909 gorbachev effectively told helmut kohl that he the soviet union would not oppose german reunification that the communication of that information to coal in the gardens of the federal chancellor a says it all because once the soviet union let it be known to west germany that it would not oppose east german rain if occasion then the entire house of cards had only collapse of course they were popular discontent i would never dream of suggesting otherwise and i certainly didnt suggest otherwise what i would say though to harold james is that those previous expressions of popular discontent including in poland was suppressed by force they were suppressed by force in berlin in 1953 in prague in 1968 in budapest in 956 and in poland in 1901 we all know that the decision was taken by gorbachev to stop that policy to abandon the doctrine and once he did that the whole thing unraveled and that seems to me to be the cause of everything harold you want to respond to there go ahead. Yes i mean i do think that is right there was a moment we know now when the east german regime was considering using force and they had after all the example of key elements square behind them and they were explicitly prohibited from doing by the by the soviet union by gorbachev and so that is indeed important but i do think you really have to think that by that stage its really too late there is an enormous amount thats just going on on the street and actually i wanted to disagree a little bit peter with what you said before that there wasnt a plan for what to do in the middle of the 1980 s. And 185 Solidarity Office in brussels the Summit Office in brussels. I wrote to the International Monetary fund that they wanted to run for the reconstruction of programs along the lines proposed by the rovers so the discussion of the reform was. Welcome and to after 998 it was already being discussed well ok well what i mean very important given harold with all due respect i mean solidarity wasnt a monolithic thing even in the 1980 s. There were a lot of different solidaritys for sure are ok absolutely ok absolutely of course i mean any Political Party any Political Movement is a coalition of Different Things and you know there was a catholic element to it a very very strong effort at an absolutely liberal and im into that ok with this kind of easily dovetail so my question for jeff uncork i mean if given. A mindset in 1909 i think all of us probably at the time thought there would be some kind of reform communism because thats what got to chop was talking about for the soviet union itself and i think thats what really caught all of us every single one of us off guard because you cant have a little bit of this a little bit of bad and its either one or the other jeff. Yeah i mean that was very much that was intention was Reform Congress and also it was the intention that a lot of the activists who were leading these mr must demonstrations in the g. D. R. In prague and other places thats the way they saw the future as well and its where a lot of outside observers saw the future now we know what happened that you did there was no reform comes and communism collapsed but you know because that happened to me to say that it was inevitable at the time there were lots of all kinds of different possible political futures and so on and i dont accept that you know once you once resolved the same motion once go back up to get it the only outcome was the outcome of that happened which is a complete collapse and the introduction of this neoliberal. I dont believe the whole of it or all kinds of possibilities that what happened was amount of political choices lots of different political choices including choices to a might by gorbachev by western leaders but you know the people on the ground in central Eastern Europe as well ok well johnny made but then again the actual existing socialism our going back to graduate school here i mean it was very totalistic its either one thing or another its not like how do we you know its like the further perfecting of communism all that kind of. Language which has it really make any sense ok and i didnt believe in breaking it through a reform reforming actual existing socialism was possible if you can you cant you cant reform it it has to go down. Yes i think thats right i think that you can be any more half communist than you can be pregnant and the subsequent history of the soviet union itself of course because as we know the forces which go but you often least ended up destroying the soviet the communist party of the soviet union in the soviet union itself so i agree with that i also think that today just as in a comment about russia in the today common to present day russia western commentators focus only on the liberal opposition they never focus on the nationalist opposition or of the communist opposition so they have a totally liberal interpretation of the coming down of the berlin wall the coming down of the berlin wall was of course the physical barrier which divided the german capital and therefore the german nation and so it did have an Important National content and the same applied to some extent for the other countries of Eastern Europe although of course as we know the iron curtain itself came in june john really john crash. Hold that thought were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on the fall of the berlin wall stay with me. When i was still seemed wrong but all wrong just dont call. Me. Yet to stamp out this day become active. And engaged because betrayal. When somebody find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. Lets see i guess. I was on the floor some days in my bathroom you know trying praying. It was just my meeting so. I want to. Say as time progressed to the words i was having children fever i didnt have any sense of say so smell from the most you. Would you. Recently she goes on the old p. C. To. My mum simon has gone down to the rovers and sir. I have heard an. Illusion myself oh bugger they fill me in the bible im going to. Go. Time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability. Order to excel or transition to sustainable transport sustainability. In more equitable and sustainable world. They claim their production is completely harmless. The big. Companies want us to feel good about products while the damage is being done far away this is Something Else this is the point in even a. New business we didnt. Understand it would soon. Welcome back to crossfire were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing the fall of the berlin wall 30 years ago. Ok john i had to go to a hard break there. Would you like to finish your point go ahead so what i was saying was that the fall of the berlin wall obviously physically symbolized the reunification of germany and the liberation of the nations of Central Europe but what it really was if you like even more so than the collapse of a physical barrier was the collapse of communism itself as a governing ideology and as i said earlier we know that the collapse of that ideology ended up in golf in the soviet union itself what this collapse allowed western liberals to do is to do what trotsky originally did back in the in 1920 s. Which was to prevent soviet communism as purely an expression of russian imperialism and nothing else and to make an obstruction if you like of the whole communist ideology the whole marxist ideology which they the todays liberals the intellectuals who in the in the cold war in western europe and the. 19 states had supported lets never forget that marxism was extremely alive and well in western universities throughout the entire period of the cold war still in with a sort of revisionist leisure demo its now presented it still is its now pretty the berlin wall collapsed the berlin wall is now presented as nothing but the collapse of a russian empire when in fact it was the collapse of a marxist ideological empire and that to me is the is the most important thing that we must remember i think the question is late harold to our reflect upon that thats very interesting. Id like to. Go ahead and i agree. John i agree that it was the collapse of the communist idea and thats absolutely right i remember these discussions in east berlin in 199991 people discuss the 3rd way and whether the world turned and there were formal tentative and then there was a very powerful mind the 3rd way is just a way into the 3rd world its a way to backwardness and you had a moderate of yugoslavia which was obviously not soviet style of communism and in some ways it was held up as an example of how you can do reform yugoslavia failed us miserably is the soviet experiment failed but then it also was i think you have to think of that also historically that this is the result of 145. 00 and so if you think of what happens in poland what happens in hungary what happens Interest Rate here its the result of soviet power and the story of communism in poland or hungary is not simply the nature of movement versus taken over. Because of the military presence of the soviet union jeff jeff we have a time delay im sorry for that let me lets go to jeff now we have to go to jeff. You know. Peter im a bit surprised the extent to which you buy into the western liberal triumphalist narrative is im not im a player play im not used all that is no no no no theres actually existing social well let me finish my but thats actually existing socialism its either one thing or the other then you actually cant explain what happened in 1909 because the reform the impetus which i each kind from weaving coalminers miss south. From from from some from google you know you talk about you know the end of the communist idea well people said that in relation to china i mean what they were all society in 1990 was that china will be next chinese commies and willful was not the case we still have a communist regime in china dont we and we have a situation where the people are talking about china becoming the most powerful actor in the little so how does that fit in with this kind of lie triumphalist you know to trump the west and i listen and i let you comment i think ok i did i really thought i would like i would laurie answer that i have to tell you how many i hang out here id love to answer that but i want to hear my guests 1st because i have a bone to pick with you jeff but im going to go to harold 1st go ahead. So i mean i think if you think of what to what happened in china of course its its a communist party in china but whats happened is a completely different kind of evolution than the evolution of the soviet union and an adoption since the early 1980 s. Of market principles. And so the really the creation of a tremendous dynamism that comes from the. Liberation of people in the economic sphere so theres a lot of Economic Freedom obviously on the political side as a one party state but in in terms of economic dynamism thats where it comes from it doesnt come from old style Central Planning and in the soviet model ok well let me go to john here and i kind of want to address what jeff had to say here because i hate you could just get very quick just get in here very quickly can i just get it very quickly peter one quick point one quick point yes what im trying to get away from here is just kind of what i can essentially is kind of feel of history what happened was a matter of contingency more than me so all kinds of different outcomes are possible and we can see that not because of the time everyones saying of strength of the west trying to liberalism democracy would we say thats the case now be i do not i am not i say me and i just i am not i didnt put democrat you know what he was i saying history into the year ok let me go to john here and i think it will answer jeffs concerns with my questions now with look at 30 years later in Eastern Europe and you have a lot of people in these former communist countries that are not very happy with neo liberalism you can look in poland you can look at hungry you can look elsewhere all through the former eastern bloc im directing this question to jaf but i want John Chancellor it. Jeff i think youre slightly tilting at windmills because in other peter ryan also the herald defenders of western liberalism or western liberal fairytales now what i was trying to say earlier is that the collapse of the berlin wall is of course a physical event but what it and what it showed was the liberation of east 1st east berlin as east germans Eastern European saw but it was also the liberation of russians and of soviet citizens from the same communist dictatorship which had by then collapsed or was in the process of collapsing and the revisionism that i was referring to in my earlier answer is the revisionism to say that the communist regime in Eastern Europe which is how james of course rightly says was imposed through soviet force that that regime was somehow the domination of russians over czechs and germans and poles and so on it was not that it was an ideology minister ideology over all those people equally and so the liberty if it came came just as much to the russians as it did to the east germans and everyone else liberty which like all the party comes with a price and risk thats what liberty is and of course yes not least because of the abuses of western power the abuses of neo liberalism yes of course plenty of people in particular i would say in hungary actually more so than poland i dont know perhaps you know better than i do of course theyre disappointed with it but i dont think that those disappointment should cause us to forget the very real tyranny under which people lived both in the soviet union and in Eastern Europe as a result of marxism a ghetto i agree with that heraldry reflected by now because we do have a. Major differences apparently on this program go ahead harold yes. I mean i think if you just look at the results. You do when you look back over the 30 years you can see really substantial increases in well being. Objective indicate. Life expectancy. But the health of the population life has just simply got better for people in central and Eastern Europe. Dramatic improvement theyve got to why direct sr health care. If its a really very very minute ok harold but harold theres something thats happening i think you should theres something more than Economic Indicators ok so how would you do explain the rise of populism and nationalism in Eastern Europe you know i think it is a region it is a reaction in many ways a rejection of neo liberalism ok because the communist period put a put into deep freeze a lot of ideas in Eastern Europe and probably ideas that should have been frozen ok but now with the end of communist rule in Eastern Europe youre seeing it come up again and and the e. U. And new liberalism is not answering all those needs. Economic indicators isnt enough i mean we live more we need more than just bread ok that was the whole point of the question. Were there but people do need a basic. Measure of existence and. That was really problematic if you look in the 1980 s. Their Life Expectancy was very low there were more deaths because of cancer more deaths because of heart attacks more deaths because of violence and that all changed in the 1990 s. So it does seem to me to indicate not just the kind of as you ok well. But it doesnt really really but it improvement it doesnt answer my question though why is there why is there the rise of these populist movements nationalist movements and rejection of the neal liberal model imposed upon them from brussels jeff the u. K. You are a perfect person to answer this one its absolutely not imposed by brussels. Well how will this how but they still will just have to disagree on russells as its about. Something completely different what the plan is you know how do you think well have to disagree on that ok we have to disagree and ill get jeff jump in but to put the plan the plan i would like to make is this is the liberal western capitalism is not just been challenged by nationalists and populists its also been challenge from the left as well you know theres actually been a revolt point of socialism and socialist thinking and socialist movement yes so we have what with. This idea that we go with 989 the whole communist socialist project and then that was a history of sullivan and the future was all liberal and complex in the west and thats turned out not not not to be true in the future is very much open at the moment and you know one of the put the possibilities of science very likely but more realistic and that is you know some cause some kind of you know you know a revisiting of different forms of socialist such as developing the such as the approaches to the resolution of the economic problem so you know i dont think you know 19 i dont remember well represented the end of so shes ok maybe ill case that well its certainly what you made certainly it certainly wasnt the end of history we were as we were told last 30 seconds go to you john go ahead yeah i dont think the sense of National Identity was put in the deep freeze under communism in hungary and poland and elsewhere i think on the contrary it was i would say almost reinforced by communism the reaction against it thats where thats how the hunger in the polls to 5 and so when the. Communist regime disappeared thats what was left it was such a deep freeze it was probably a fascinating point sale most hell ive run out of time weve ended on a fascinating note from john but weve run out of time many thanks to my guests in paris washington and in court and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember. The world is driven by a dream shaped by one person with those words. Than. The dares thinks. We dare to ask. These. Who are birth. Walking into the word dont we no longer know what were walking into. March. What is unique steve ritchie. Who shapes possible. Thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the countrys military and their decision lives every song came to a complete. The day that i was right to be instructed here you know all the shot all what they kill me and i see how it destroyed my life any screamed at me and he made me come in and he grabbed my arm and he write me with his birth thinking if you take into account that women dont report because of the extreme retaliation its probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military rape is a very very traumatizing. Thing to have happened but ive never seen trauma like ive seen from women who are veterans who have suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished dont be offended by how and almost 10 year career which shows very invested in and i gave up to report a sex offender who was not even put to justice or put on the registry this is simply an issue of our violent male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there to prey upon whether thats men or women. Or who i. Was. I. This is arty u. K. Where life from Central London welcome to our viewers from around the world were currently waiting for the u. K. Governments daily Coronavirus Press briefing given by Health Secretary matt hong kong and he promised 100000 virus test a day by the end of april and well hear if he says chief that number in the meantime though are other headlines this hour. Prime minister baraks chance of promise is a road not out of a long down but keeps the nation waiting for details as the coronavirus death toll continues to rise ill be talking to the governments former chief scientific adviser. The survey finds heart of Health Service workers are struggling to cope with the pressures of fighting the virus that says experts caution against putting too much strain on frontline staff by calling them heroes so daleys when we go to war we dont feel like heroes if we do feel out so she said it doesnt feel like were you know were just individuals who are scared about getting a potentially lethal condition. And police are concerned that a wave of Violent Crime a sweet britain after the lockdown measures are eased ill be talking to a former officer. Welcome to r. T. U. K. Prime minister Boris Johnsons promise of a comprehensive road map for lifting law done measures keeps the u. K. Waiting as the death toll continues to rise thats as figures reveal those from porus are significantly more likely to die from corona virus but we can cross now to the press conference in downing street. Good afternoon and welcome once again to the downing street daily Coronavirus Briefing im joined by Professor John newton who coordinates all work on testing and by professor steve powers whos the medical director of the n. H. S. Every day were working through our plan to protect life and protect the n. H. S. By slowing the spread and building the capacity so at all times the n. H. S. Has got the capacity to give the very best care to everybody who needs it in todays briefing after setting out the daily statistics i want to talk about testing but beforehand id like to share some really good news. Earlier this week i said that we are now able to begin the restoration of n. H. S. Services now that were past the peak i can tell you about the next step the restoration of fertility services. Few families have been untouched by the amazing advances in fertility treatments over the past generation and i know just how time sensitive fertility treatment can be and how important it is for the families affected and i know that this treatment. Can change lives for the better for ever so when i say thank you to all of you everybody watching for staying at home to protect the n. H. S. Of course im saying thank you on behalf of the lives that youre saving but im also saying thanks on behalf of the lives that the n. H. S. Can now once again help to create. Because together weve protected the n. H. S. And were now restoring the n. H. S. And restoring the chance for so many couples to start a family. Turning to the figures. 177400 54 people have tested positive for corona virus an increase of 6200 in one since yesterday. 15111 people are currently in hospital with corona virus and 27510 people have now sadly died across all settings an increase of 739 as one will remember them and treasure their memories this is a virus that has a devastating impact on families on friends on local communities and right across government were working day and night to defeat it. At the beginning of last month at this podium i set a goal that anyone who needs a tass should get it to us and that as a nation we should achieve 100000. 00 tests per day by the end of the month i knew that it was an or dangerous goal but we needed in order to scull because testing is so important for getting britain back on our feet. I can announce that we have met our goal the number of tests yesterday. On the last day of april was 122347 this unprecedented expansion in british testing capability is an incredible achievement but it is not my achievement it is a National Achievement. Achieved by a huge team of people working together and i tell you this the Testing Capacity that weve built together will help every Single Person in this country testing is crucial to suppress the virus i know from personal experience to just how much people with symptoms want to know if theyve got the disease i know that i did it helps remove the worry it helps keep people safe and it will help us to unlock the lock down so many people have tragically died and the challenge that we still face is vast but were making Real Progress i want to take a moment to thank and pay tribute to the Incredible Team who did this together and who joined in one of the greatest National Mobilization that weve seen we brought together the best Civil Servants the best minds from the private sector the best scientists the best Lab Technicians and the best of the best in the armed forces. Setting stretching Ambitious Goals in a crisis has a galvanizing effect on everybody involved it is a mission. If we hadnt been so bold if wed chosen a safer easier path i just cant see how we would have built the capacity that we need. In a few short weeks weve created a new test for the virus in p. H. P. Weve built a network of regional Testing Centers weve put a fleet of mobile testing units on the road and created home testing kits so if you cant get to the test we can get the test to you weve more than doubled the capacity of n. H. S. And Public Health england lapse and created 3 brand new mega labs to analyze the results so many people have played a part in this work british diagnostic Companies Like rand docs and oxford none of poor and medical wire and d. N. A. Nudges sam for logistic Companies Like the royal mail and yodel who were brilliant and got us out of a real hole this week academics like professor derek crook and suggesting bell from oxford and professors are adults i from imperial to and boots who deliver dog drive through centers astra zeneca g s k an oversight whose labs go on stream next week Public Health england and the n. H. S. Of course whove pulled out all the stops. Professor Sharon Peacock Professor John newton. And the u. K. Boys and turn the group to certain points. And also it wasnt just a National Effort people from across the world including Thermo Fisher a lot of what i was mad at the Health Secretary giving the governments daily Coronavirus Press briefing he promised 100000 daily virus test by thursday and he said that he did chief that by over 20000 lets turn to our correspondent showed it was daschle hes achieved that figure by over 20000 he said bruce has some doubt about the figures absolutely kate indeed their Health Secretary confirming that the government has met its selfimposed target of reaching 100000 tests every single day by the end of april which was just yesterday confirming actually theyve supposed that target reaching 122347 as of yesterday about hancock explaining this is an unprecedented expansion it really shows a the height of a National Achievement and as you mentioned it yesterday was indeed that deadline when matt had put that deadline in place just a month ago at the time it really was seen as not just ambitious but quite frankly far fetched an even earlier this week the numbers really were indicating that the government would miss its own deadline but somehow they have managed to surpass it which has caused them to doubt how theyve managed to suddenly jump from at the start of the week near the 40000. 00 mark to reaching 122000 apparently it has been reported that the government has even changed the way its counted the number of 19 tests carried out in a bid to actually meet that deadline now Health Secretary there saying that testing is absolutely crucial to suppressing the virus and while the public and politicians alike can all agree that support suppressing the virus is absolutely key the country wants to know how the United Kingdom will be able to get back on track and move past this virus and somehow reach a semblance of normality and thats. Why as of yesterday Boris Johnson promised the country that he would put forward a road map of exactly how the United Kingdom will be able to get back on track and how the United Kingdom will be able to move past these lockdown measures so he put forward an almost menu of options and a key driver of the wide ranging strategy is to keep that number down thats the reproductive rate of the virus meaning the number of people the average person could infect now at the height of this pandemic the the number was around 3 and its now between 0. 6 and 0. 9 so Boris Johnson wants to keep it that way so social distancing measures are here to say stay now as you can see face muscles a key key crucial thing in achieving. Our numbers scotland has already recommended the use in public the u. K. Has yet to officially recommend the use but just yesterday the Prime Minister said that they would be useful for reopening certain things and trying to get back to normality schools could be opened in a stock approach the education secretary Gavin Williamson mentioned this and he said that different age groups could be allowed back in the classroom continuing then with a phased approach different parts of the country could open up before others michael gove has said that britains ivans could see the knock down lifted before the rest of the country however im quite crucially the government has not committed to any dates yes its mapping out the parts of the destination but we still dont know exactly when any of this could happen for certain but the issue is whether or not the United Kingdom will form a unified approach to try and get out of these lockdown measures as we know Boris Johnson has been completely out of action completely out of the political stratosphere and because of that lack of leadership some of the devolved nations have decided to go that own separate ways by producing and publishing their own exit strategies as scotland. 1st minister nicolas sturgeon she said if she thought it necessary she would move the country her country scotland out of the lockdown well before the rest of the United Kingdom if she thought it necessary the same can be said for the worlds 1st minister who said he too would consider that as a strategy though does accept and acknowledge it would be much better if the whole of the u. K. Could do so together for the rule of for should approach we went into a locked room together on the same terms. I would like to see us come to block term on the basis so really the country does want to move into and out of this knock down period get back to some sense of normality as we heard the Prime Minister is saying that we are past the peak of this virus he has stressed previously that we are seeing brighter days ahead but still could be a long way off indeed an incredible achievement there today chad thank you very much indeed. I want to discuss the governments response in more detail and im joined by former chief scientific advisor professor David King Reza thank you very much indeed for joining me i mean isnt there a risk that lifting the lockdown will simply result in reinfection. Of course that is the risk and that is what has to be watched as we go in to d lifting the lockdown everything now depends on how the lockdown is lifted i mean it is very important to say that some countries have done exceptionally well if if i look at south korea as one of the leading countries on this. They never actually went into a lockdown in the way that we have they simply banned all large gatherings so there were no football crowds no horse racing as we had in cheltenham as we had football at liverpool all of that was closed down very early on and its these large gatherings that are the principal mechanism of the virus spreading at the gathering and then being dispersed around the whole country as everyone goes back to there so i think i think its critically important that as we move into lifting the lockdown we learn from what other countries have done we bring the bring in all our experts im delighted by the way that we have achieved the 120000 plus number of tests in a single day and i note all of the thanks that matt hank uk has given to the the people outside government has given given so much help up unless it ever has again i just interrupt and ask you about the initial plan of the government here coming back to have countries deal with this in a different way initial plan for the u. K. Was herd immunity wasnt it but the government backed away from that with a trace kind of desk became quiet and they are. Yes very clearly they backed away from it and i think there has her have to be questions are asked by noticed that many medibank aquas thanking people who have produced this massive increase in testing capability and i quote him in a few short weeks why didnt this happen in a few short weeks in february instead of zeus late into the pen demick i do simply believe that the number of deaths in this country could have very substantially been reduced if we had acted much more quickly on all of these issues but im delighted that they seem to be now moving outside of their narrow confines of keeping the discussion within government to discussing it in a more transparent way with the private sector with experts around the country thats really what has been missing brainstems if you hadnt read it if there it is a fact that if you lock people down then they do need to if it to be get attached to develop had immunity and is there a way of achieving that without many more people dying. Yes if theres still a question as to whether the policy is herd immunity and i say that simply because of the stress that was put in that report from at anchor or in the focus so that the national Health Service should always have the capacity to deal with the cases that come into their their team to them because of the seriousness with which the disease is taking them so i think what what im saying is yes of course the national Health Service has to be able to cope but the question is whether that would focus is the right focus or whether they should have focused on reducing our 0 much more quickly early on Contact Tracing all of that alongside testing i would also like to know the 122000. 00 tests which of those tests are are they are they determining viruses or antibodies or both and can we have some knowledge about when we say tested positive do we know how many have been tested with antibodies and so on so i think we need much more detail and im just going to really push again for transparency in all of these actions by a professor i thought theres a risk of a 2nd wave as we know i mean which of course something could be a lot worse couldnt it. Of course as i said the 2nd wave in the spanish flu epidemic in 1919 was worse than the 1st. But of course if you if you keep this under review it should be managed in other words who watch our 0 i frankly think that we need to bring our 0 right down and so as we move out of complete lockdown we have to see that we certainly dont go back to football matches and walls races but though that we do all of these things carefully step wise but i would like to know what those steps are im very much looking forward to the Prime Ministers clear and transparent statement that will be coming up they have a bit of a lot they professor said a good thing many thanks for joining us thank you thank you so calm after the break. Police say britain will experience a crime wave after the government begins to ease a lot of damage and solve it all the time for lets at least officer. We go to work so you straight home. Is youll be via reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe from. Isolation full community. Are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere. Direct. What is true what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. For a mate in the shallows. And. Welcome back police in the u. K. How ones that easing the long gun measures could lead to a surge in Violent Crime committed by gunning ploy to members of gangs the concern is that. Thanks who have been isolated will now want to reclaim their turf in a bid to regain control while the police and crime commissioner for the West Midlands David Jameson is worried about pubs reopening as many people may drink more than usual when it comes as 200000 people reportedly called the police to inform on their neighbors for breaking lockdown rules. Well Police Service shootaround 9000 fines to individuals in england breaking lockdown rules and almost 300 in wales members of the public can be hit with a 60 pound fine for not adhering to the rules but it can be hard if paid quickly although repeat offenders could be forced to pay double up to a maximum amount of just under a 1000. 00 pounds and its also been reported around 391. 00 people have really offended in england and wales with one individual being slapped with 6 tickets. What is gustnado by former Police Officer peter kirk and maybe have given joining us a surge in Violent Crime posts locked down i mean thats pretty worrying is that it is but its been predictable right from the start really. When we went into the lockdown with all the specially with the closure of pubs and clubs. And public space effectively. It was predictable that Crime Associated with those locations would plummet and that is now working its way through in the statistics that we see. Violence street crime drug misuse or drug dealing. Lots and lots of things that happen in streets and busy Public Places have gone down equally predictable is once you release that pressure just like the businesses that have had. No income or very much reduced income for the period of a lot around so the criminals that have their. Illegal businesses shut down there or come back with a vengeance needing to make up that slack and so its entirely predictable that we can expect to see a Significant Impact on crime stats on the levels of crime and when the lockdown is released what they said i mean erickson that will be very patient going to say thats a very grim picture that youre painting but other police equipped to deal with it. The police are equipped to deal with it in terms of their capability. As weve been saying for the last 10 years they have got ever reduced capacity and although theres the government boasting that theyve had 3000 of the new 20000 officers 20000 officers that will take us back to where we were in 2010. Are not at all sure that there is actually 3000. 00 additional officers on the street because during the period of getting on for 9 months or a year now that these officers have been recruited a significant number of officers will live left and so theyll just be covering normal wear and tear on the numbers of Police Officers are suspected to be significantly fewer than 3000. 00 additional officers so we could be heading back to levels of crime that were dealt with. With the and written. Well with 20000 more officers than weve got now with pretty much the same number of offices the capacity isnt that the Police Service still has no resilience and it still has very very limited contingency capacity and this is going to be testing especially as the lockdown will undoubtedly continue in some form and so additional work for the police in enforcing whatever that reduce locked out is that will continue apace theres also they look at whats happening under the lockdown for the time being i mean weve heard that just under 9000 fines have been issued for breaking the lockdown rules where the population of over 60000000 i mean the situation as it stands could actually be worse in the a can it the situation could be a lot worse and Police Services across the country have constantly pointed out that although there are significant numbers of people breaching the regulations the vast vast majority of the public are broadly speaking complying with them and if there are any breaches there fairly technical or low level breaches theyre not sort of out and out malicious bridges those very few across. The country that approach in the regulations maliciously and the police is approaches or has been right from the start to engage them to explain the rules to them so encourage them to comply and only use enforcement as a last resort where somebody is maliciously deliberately will willfully disobliging the regulations in creating the problem and so we know the numbers of tickets issued would be reduced or would be limited and of course the size of the Fine Associated with those tickets is or isnt in and of itself going to solve the problem and its no surprise to me the relatively few tickets issued so far as a case of its ok for the moment were looking ahead to where all those extra crimes that you said you predict peter thank you very much indeed for your india thank you thank you. And finally the your case chief medical officer has not only taken the science world by storm his distinctive facial features and inspired many artists across the country to create some other usual masterpieces. For. Well be back with more news in just over half an hour see if. I. Join me every thursday on the alex simon show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business im show business ill see you then. Seemed wrong but. Just dont call. Me. Yet to shape our day and to. Engage with. The trail. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. So u. S. Economy was booming gaining numbers of people were made homeless. You can work 40 hours in a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still has the lead up to the reality of it were not financially equality and im not comfortable housing or living minimum wage gave many people no choice. Thats been a problem with the city knows turn. Told me stay away all this. If there is no answer because the records resource the most vulnerable are abandoned on the streets to become the invisible cops. Who are birth. We are definitely walking into a word doc you know we no longer know what were walking into you know i cant sit on march 9th she. Needs to break it