Transcripts For RT CrossTalk 20240713

Helped to crash the Energy Markets in the u. S. No one is you know driving flying well producing this thing but at the same time its important to note that the foundation of it was already there flawed so i guess were all celebrating or at least americans were celebrating Energy Independence and this economic a miracle it is worth noting that it. Did not didnt have the most Stable Foundation and of course for the whole thing to fall apart now in the Current Crisis just makes it. A good. Look at me. Now i think there were its criminal intent here ok im not going to be kind about it at all ok i mean using sanctions as a political weapon to prop up your own Energy Companies i mean that is just you know they need that that is just throws in the face of International Law and the entire concept of free trade here i mean this is this is anti free trade i mean to but to point weve never seen before. Or again that is what that is one of the basis of the anti bin is wailin problem policies an anti rand is to support american Energy Companies and the illusion the illusion of Energy Independence which is gone and it probably will not come back and then you have this cascade effect where these Oil Companies will run up what glenn was saying what theyre you know theyre going to default on these loans and its going to ricochet all the way through the Financial System hundreds of thousands if not millions of people are dependent on this thing on that part of the economy so this is that you know when that house of cards falls it falls patmos stop catastrophic glee and thats what were seeing right now with the rest of the economy spiraling down as well and thats why i said in my introduction i dont see any return to coronavirus for the for the Energy Markets here go ahead. Well indeed according to that american conservative was a logical politics that involved a situation and that article called the way that. They have the United States removed about 2000000 barrels a day or production. By imposing sanctions on vance oil and iran since 2018 you know that i think it was vice quite great there and its headlined. This is the beginning of the and all the u. S. Energy independence. Its all b. S. You know its all this that it was a mistake to war against you know poor people are important countries with economic sanctions you know these predatory drum you know it was also adequate and by he is anti east trade war because the trade war against china decreased the demand for oil so basically that youre montanas been going dahlan since 2018 and now hold the wire it killed it. So basically what we have in the United States now is and we want their. Industry insiders call tank tops you know when just a bargain all their war you want all the possible what we want for story of the oil can be a field during the next few weeks maybe months but you know i dont think that the reasons for it excludes it really material you know the European Union which if it had been indeed present in the interests of European Countries it would be very much interested in rational oil and gas by the European Union did everything to wreck the brought all solid steam and it didnt do any deal save north stream so when they were added states went. Just everyone in the north when the u. Was basically illegal pretty big legal sanctions on any companies that will help russia finish the broader basically of the e. U. And you are doing anything to stop the United States from doing that i dont need any money to provide you pushed a little bit the germans did push back and they made it very clear their position there would be dictated by washington but on the whole i agree with you here you know from the same article as scott ritter that demon was bringing up here on the i love this theres a line that really stuck out to me or Oil Contracts come in go big bad policy is for ever and a big thing thats really well put now i mean you know im the one hand its perfectly fine you want to have competitive advantage in advantage in the marketplace i get there and that there are consumers there and predictable others here but those that predatory nature of this its all its like karma coming back in a hard way because if these distortions of the market is made even worse and again of course we have to recognize we have the pen demick on time. But were demand is just flat lining all over the place so bad policy is forever in this case got headline. Its worth noting when we talk about policy because a lot of the problems behind this are physical in nature that is minus Interest Rates to be in helping to set up a lot of this say well this house of cards which is not collapsing if you dont mind at all not just in the u. S. But around the world now you see many countries moving in to minus Interest Rates or you know paying money to companies to borrow and spend and that we have of course dating into minus. Sort of negative oil prices in which its quite remarkable now were actually having Oil Companies have to pay. People to take the oil off their hands now this is quite ready quite an interesting thing because. The my mentioned there is no storage and more tankers are you know just hanging around the porsche looking for somewhere to live maybe i dont know what sorry and theres no demand theres no demand and as a problem so again in the economy if you have supply and demand theres no demand in a more diverse thing of course deathstar stop pumping out but the problem with a lot of oil wells especially with shale is you cant just simply turn off the well studies often have to fill it up with various chemicals its if you want to reopen them later on you might not to get the same profitability out of it if you can at all so its hard to just stop the pumps especially if they think its short term then its easier just to continue to rack up and sell it at a loss but i think the problem now is what will what will be the be the american solution to this i mean in a capitalist system what you really have is you allow a lot of these Oil Companies in the u. S. Hundreds of them to go bankrupt by having less supply the demand the prices will increase and other Oil Companies can survive but it seems. Forward United States for everything to stay seems to be simply be build them up print more money see if you can keep the party going on a little bit longer in order not at all because it was force but what youre saying blame it on the one hand you can see the cynic in me and you should be cynical in these days is that youre bailing out shareholders of these companies that have been underwritten by the taxpayer i mean the moment when is enough enough ok because this was a big get i get going to have Energy Independence i mean i believe in sovereignty here but the means of by the way they went through this process here is a as i said earlier is going to have a cascade effect all the way through the economy just to keep your friends that have shares in these companies that its very expensive you have to have High Oil Prices but at the same time you know you you have this tendency to want to. Not tendency to this drive to put your own oil on the market and demanding other people not participate in it again the most kind of anticapitalistic antitrade process you can imagine go ahead dean well i think its not their only market its and they nature of i mean they fear that theyre in that that states should not be using the oil from being a so our you know where by the will of what you know there was a lot of tropical forests in there and sometimes and theres a lot of oil in venice so it just makes sense to use it in the United States this a year is simply a nature of the same story with the European Union and the or ratio which is mostly basically russia you know they year they have the European Union which is basically a big you know stretch in the southwest and direction of being eurasia that they gear they have these peninsular is not to go into you the oil and the gas from the rest of the corner. Is absurd. Its against their laws of nature so when i hear this award Energy Independence its not about independence its about discriminating against congress. Yes you are right bailing out your friends who are producing quote using this very very controversial you can all with your freaking hope hold up on were going to go to one short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on the oil market stay with r. P. But i. Can. See yes. I was on the floor some things in my basket you know my brain. Has just come. And its time for us to go down to work since i was having children fever i didnt have any sense of say source now im going to lose you. Would you. Lose recently she has a little distance to. Live on simon is on the grounds of the reasons. I have to. Push myself because it is for me in the papers i got to. Go. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation or community. Are you going the right way or are you being led. By. What is true what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. For a mate in the shallows. As the us economy was booming growing numbers of people were made homeless. You can work 40 hours d in a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still has the lead up to the reality of those who were not financially quality and the lack of Affordable Housing for a living minimum wage gave many people no choice. Thats been a problem with the city knows turn a return call the stay way almost. Consider that there is no answer because yes that requires resources the most vulnerable are abandoned on the streets to become the invisible cops. Welcome back to cross talk were all beings are considered im peter about a minute were discussing the global Energy Markets. Ok lets go back to me that glenn in in our slow week in the 1st part of the program we put a. Focus on whats going on with the oil price and demand and storage of its place a very Important Role in all this but how does this change american hegemony in the as we enter the post corona. Virus pandemic i mean there is a lot of people saying that that had to monic presence has been declining ever since its peak at the end of the cold war but now we have this because because energy has been a very key element in the in the unit polar moment for for the washington consensus then and now thats been pretty much blown out of the water i mean we have no idea where the Global Economy is going to go and anyone that says we know that they dont know what theyre talking about because we dont have an update a point see i mean every country isnt going in a different direction in trying to find solutions to a different rate of problems and theyre all intermingled right now but i mean this is something thats been going on ever since the peak of the unocal or moment and if the energy is not going to be such a powerful tool in the strategic tool box how does that change the trajectory. Of the unit polar moment that the americans are so proud of which seems to be a berry very much illusory today. Well. Youre right a lot of the problems we have today started about this competition for for global hegemony or primacy and energy obviously has a key. Key role in this well the main problem for the United States is that its a power in a relative decline and it bases insecurities on privacy that its global hegemony this could do you could make an argument for it probably wouldnt their main argument was from the early 1990 s. That if the u. S. Was simply dominates the world this could lead to more peace because you know destroy it this way large powers from competing against each other as actually having this concentration of power now. I was from the early 1990 s. The u. S. Olivier indicated this would be its main Security Strategy that is security through dominance and it was formalized and its a curative strategy in 2002 no problem obviously rising power stay they will have to be pushed back in order to maintain or to preserve. The problem over the last 2 years or has been done to us in relative decline so this makes the us a big threat to countries from china russia iran and though you know the European Union and the rising power is seen as a threat to this model of privacy so really the u. S. Only has 2 main actions that is one could begin to accommodate the other large powers and censorship the way in Strategy Global dominance or privacy and start to call it a more multipolar system or you can keep the party going a bit longer by suppressing rising power stuff means more investment in military force and this actually pushing back anyone who doesnt hold the line now. The problem with this strategy and always the latter is what appears to americas been following in its thing and if we keep things going a little bit longer but not only are there exhausting all their resources but you still have a multicolor d world forming the only difference now is countries like china russia iran this initially formed multiple or system in opposition to the United States because they all see the us their main threat trying to prevent their eyes now again obviously people be looking at the work in a country to predict how it will play out after this crisis but the crisis will probably put us in a very difficult Economic Situation so far the chinese appear to be able possibly to benefit to some extent. You know the information coming out about russia and the west is worth noting that over the past 23 decades russia has been while to take a. Been working to fix. The financial house in order. That all is dead and hes actually put in a very good situation to you know. To get through such a storm you can even are you that all this attention is also put to us our good russian a position where you can handle a very difficult situation suppose you are for example in the u. S. Where they made everything deficient to such an extent that they count there really such a sharp. Well ive always been a big fan of sanctions ok important substantive work its worked really well ok all right the breach ease and calm bear wasnt so good but now theyve got it up to speed ok i mean it just took a little bit of time ok in the capital across the economy and you know de mint one of the interesting things here is that when we look at how. The International System is changing is that it seems really interesting is it in the 1st part of the program we discussed energy in that in that tool in the in the tool box his tool box is is spent are being spent the Financial System is in chaos right now the dollar decline but theres only one thing that hasnt decline and thats military spending at the expense i would argue strenuously at the expense of infrastructure and what is what needs to be done in the us itself because because with the lacking a Health Care System that accommodates the entire population that deals actually with help and profit the u. S. Is going to suffer from that for a long time to come and so you have all of this holds a rate of issues coming to a head at home but at the same time you have enormous defense spending and that seems to be the the card that washington wants to play is that maybe they can be the same kind of financial powerhouse. Not the energy hedge im on but they have the military it seems to me that is the most brittle and probably the least forward looking i mean the International System is so complex now involving very quickly in ways that we dont even understand as we get through this pandemic relying upon the military seems like. A primitive way of looking at the International System it means were going to use force not International Law. Well youre exactly right and this is what russia has in other and against the in the. Our foreign minister Sergey Lavrov ceral its our time sad that we want to talk about International War and the United States and the European Union they want to talk about what they call rules based order which happens to be the sole called international or liberal or no. And theyre talking about hegemony and there was a very will die because of gaining their american conservative called please tell the establishment that us hegemony is all were where theyre off there then you know larry some basically said theyre doing that the states least its dominance you know its claim to dominance during the last 3 decades on the idea that they and what one can protect these International Liberal Order you know with out there this order would collapse well it is already a collapse in without the heads of states you know doing anything dramatic simply because it is order is unsustainable and what you describe very directly you know they fear there you are just mining your may give our stupid people a shoe new you dont spend 2 trillion dollars to fix you know though the damage done by the coronavirus and at the same damn you borel whining about you it keeps. About 700000000000. 00 on us defense every year well sort of that the minds of the British Empire thats how Great Britain went down in the middle of the plane that century and they didnt do this any battles actually won the war against germany but the military machine that they have already before the war it was sustained all only thanks to all forms they had to war or money to keep their military machine war in and it could not be sustained for a long time you know it was not the fault of individual put it to chanson it was a neutral draw to us that Great Britain basically is ceased to be a water fall. So the question is not the fall of us can gemini whether it will continue or not it rolled continue or it will shrink the problem is how will their magic and the war that large how will we manage these decline you know you alleged use of you suggests some logic like the i mean didnt you bring up something that is its very difficult because if youre weaned on american exceptionalism its almost like a cold you cant imagine the world otherwise and then its going to be a its a huge psychological problem that the Political Class has and and if they dont they cant come to terms with the its going to be its going to get messy and tragic unfortunately glenn i mean defending the liberal International Order i dont see whats particularly liberal about it and i and actually this is just a code word per american hegemony ok i believe you could have a liberal order but it doesnt necessarily mean you need a hedge of mine. No and you can argue the rules based order having this liberal or rules based order its. Actually contradictory to have to moan cause if youre going to maintain the presser among it leads to a lot of. Well a lot of rule breaking and furthermore the whole idea of a multilateral rules based system yes if you dont mind if one disorder is central about his death whole idea that they were able to. To uphold this liberal order but it depends on western solidarity so its a western led liberal order though the problem with this is if you go to western and order their 1st principle then will be that we need in unity internal unity within the west but then it became because theyre a difficult question how can you actually have a rules based order and i think for countries like russia especially especially recognize that whenever theres a tension in the International System lets say russia or worse hole in the russia versus the u. K. It would be any possible scenario where russia is not in the wrong where russia is not the bad guy because if you get if you get a rules based system but it depends on western unity they were the west will always hold together and russia will always be in there also this whole idea that. Theres a lot of internal contradictions within this liberal International Order and as the International Distribution of power has been shifting away from the west and towards the rest of the world i guess upholding pension money relies more and more on the course of its power that its not just military power that everybody can only sign it and nothing else at all and i mean that means. A liberal order as defined by the washington consensus means you have to use coercion i mean what value is that in itself violence of a demon rapidly running out of time when. Well there was a book obvious recently on this issue of the office and exotic coolly and then next and then. The title of the book is exit from hegemony on revenue and all of them magic and global all of that and the 2 office abio that basically this socalled liberal international or that is maintained by some very illiberal ringback means i mean pressure on china demonizing russia basically alienating the contessa like iran when youre so ally and a lot of other important independent countries and the biggest question is legalize these liberal or that there is International Law there is the organization of United Nations what else do need to have a system based on justice thats why russia and china insist on their return to even if it will have to end on this no you cant have meaningful International Law if you have a hedge but doesnt recognize the value of International Law it is deemed quote unquote against their interest as all the time we have gentlemen i want to thank my guests in moscow and in oslo and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our teeth so you next time remember. The world is driven by a dream shaped by 7 percent of those. Who dares thinks. We dare to ask. Your city suburb. Yes lets see yes. I was on the floor some days in my basket of you know trying praying. It is time for us to die worms i was having children fever i didnt have any sense of say so smell from the most you know and im going to go with you. Recently she goes on to the oldest you tube. That was simon is on the grounds of the research. I have heard an. Illusion myself hope of today for me in the 5 ill go to. Yes look were sort of in the group before. We give birth. Youre definitely walking into the word dont you know we no longer know what were walking into. March. What she needs to break she. Is. Who shapes possible. Bets geysers financial supply place a money to develop. A plan to use it this is a central plank support diagram is kind of common right now so you stop to. As the u. S. Economy was booming growing numbers of people were made homeless. You can work 40 hours d in a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still is the land of opportunity the reality of it were not financially equality and the lack of Affordable Housing for a living minimum wage gave many people no choice. Thats been a problem with the city knows turn to the rich and told me stay away i dont miss. The food if there is no answer because yes the records resource the most vulnerable were abandoned on the streets to become the invisible comes. Welcoming all of us from around the world live from Central London this is all to u. K. I ask you to continue to repeat. Because i believe we are coming to the end of the 1st phase of this conflict Prime Minister Boris Johnson rules against easing local restrictions too early and pleads with the public to be patient as he said westminster following his own battle with corona virus. The government says it wont know if the data target of 100000 tests will be met by the thursday deadline capacity stands or just call for the figures with the actual number of tests much less. The minister for the Cabinet Office one claims he hopes the Coronavirus Crisis will focus the minds of the negotiators in order to secure a trade deal with the u. K. By the end of the year. An increase in state surveillance is a price worth paying to get over the pandemics so says the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change but pretty sick campaign to say the public must trust the technology we hear from both sides of the debate. Had done it worse news the financial pressure of millions of renters with many struggling to find enough cash to pay for the central. Prime minister Boris Johnson is back after his own personal battle with coronavirus saying its too early to risk lifting the lockdown and calling on the public to be patient thats as the government attempts to distance itself from the Health Secretary promise of 100000 daily tests by thursday is out it joins me now for the latest so we said the promise is back but still no informational lifting the lockdown. We sold our souls in giving his speech outside downing street since returning to work following is recovery wrote his own list with covered 19 by all accounts very serious was his condition he was in intensive care but the Prime Minister making a full enough recovery to get back to work now in that press conference he stressed the importance of those lockdown measures saying that they had helped to take the strain of the stress off the n. H. S. And that they had helped to keep what he said was the pay down and that lifting it too soon could avoid a 2nd peak from that taking place he took the opportunity in his speech to thank the people of the u. K. For keeping to that lockdown in the main bill while also stressing that he understood the pressure that its cause for businesses and the economy in general and he drew upon his own personal experience with the virus to compare it to being knocks. These viruses where he physically the same. Unexpected any physical contact. Talking to republicans it is. This is the moment. Where he has begun to get to wrestle it to the floor. And say this is the measure of opportunity to remember where we can present both our advantage. It is also the moment of maximum rate. Because i know theyll be many people looking at our current system. And beginning to wonder whether or not is the time to go. On the social distancing measure. Now perhaps the government giving some hints as to what could come next in the next phase of dating with coronavirus particularly when it comes to lifting some of those lockdown measures perhaps socalled non essential businesses would be allowed to open but to keep the same type of rules that were seeing in supermarkets where people queuing up outside in those 2 minutes who needs a social distancing that could be seen in other situations in other businesses as well now all of this comes of course as the daily death toll figures have been released by and h. S. England these are the same as those released by now the department of health but they point to a figure of 350 people who have sadly lost their lives it inland scotland and wales now over the weekend weve seen people perhaps not keeping entirely to the spirit of the lockdown measures we know that of course people can go up for exercising up to the shops and that means that people have been going to the parks or perhaps staying in larger groups than is necessary all that is allowed and weve been seeing police asking people not to go back home and to disperse and to been breaking up gatherings in some of the parks that we saw over the weekend during that nice weather not as full bars johnson and he said that while he sympathizes with the public hes asking for them to enjoy it and to keep on observing does not measure them to keep on observing social distancing for a little bit longer i refuse to throw away all the effort and the sacrifice of the british people and to risk a 2nd major outbreak and huge loss of life and the overwhelming of any chance and i ask you to contain your impatience because i believe we have coming now to the end of the 1st phase of this conflict. And in spite of all the suffering we have soon nearly succeeded. Last week we saw the Scottish Government revealing what their exit plan to come out of those not down measures what it entailed now nikka stats and also saying got government would reveal more information about what options have government are considering now weve seen that down in westminster a bit of a round breaking out with regards to the Government Special why is that Dominic Cummings not hes been attending sage meetings as a Scientific Advisory for emergencies the road hes played in those meetings has perhaps close but if sort of government ministers in government sources say that mr cummins is just that to listen and relate information back to the Prime Minister that others have suggested that mr cummings being the type of personality that he is has perhaps been putting a bit more into it than somebody in his position should be and for those reasons that have put it on the government to real exactly what input mr cummings has had whether thats really appropriate and these have the governments rowing back from that promise of 100000 they need tests. Yeah throughout this crisis weve seen the government criticized for amongst other things how many tests theyve been carrying around and theyve set themselves a target the target is 100000 tests a day by day and of april was just a few days away from that weve seen the environment secretary george use just releasing the latest figures that would show that just under 30000 people were tested on saturday just under 700000 been tested in total put into context germany is testing around 100000. 00 people a day so thats roughly what they do in a week so that just goes to show perhaps the government way behind in their own status and testings and the governments own Success Research suggests that that capacity currently to test is 53000. 00 so in any case theyre only testing around 30000. 00 their capacity is hot just under just more than half of their own target and with only a few days to go race to be seen whether they will reach the target of 100000. 00 tests today by the end of april and we could be waiting some day longer because thats a bit of it get a bit of a lag until we find out from thursday maybe 72 hours until after that when you find out exactly whether or not the government has not met their own targets but according to most observers the government way way short of their own testing figures in cases having thank you very much indeed for that consultant to internet equality delta in framing told me that numbers of tests carried out and not the measure are all what is going on. Its been reported over and over that the figures on mondays are always lower because registers of not been open over the weekend and theyre. Not not there for counting so that you kind of catch up on tuesday wednesday when theres when theres more cases that have been reported because this is not the actual number of people dying on a day its the number of cases reported on a day and i just heard on the news at lunch time the Different Health boards in wiles are reporting this in a different way so theres going to be a big reckoning at the end so all these numbers that come out are a measure of whats going on they cant possibly be the measure and of course then youve got the just the issue of everyone dying in care for example. And to get 100. 00 on that were going to have to look in the end the difference between the number of people who died that we would have expected for this time of year compared to the number who actually have and that will be the excess mortality and to my mind that is the figure. And for more on the current lockdown of the Prime Ministers handling of the crisis ill be joined by journalist peter oborne in the next hour. The minister for the Cabinet Office Michael Goves claim the e. U. Needs to respect the british people decision to leave a European Union part that the current virus crisis will help get a trade deal with in the Time Available it made the comments during a virtual session of the Parliamentary Committee on future a u relations if we look at it the recent things that the e. U. Are asking for but to our mind do. Properly respect the nature of the decision that the u. K. Has made as you know with a promise to school to mandate a general election for a particular approach of the British Public gave him that mandate and its clear that at the e. U. Are still trying in some respects to ask for example that we adhere to conditions on a level Playing Field which other independent countries do not need to adhere to in order to have free trade agreements the private crisis in some respects should concentrate the minds of the e. U. Negotiator will sing the vital importance of coming to a good. It comes after downing street hit out of the bloc claiming that Political Movement needs to come from brussels in order for negotiations to move forward last week that he used chief negotiator blamed the u. K. For stalling britain is currently shuttle to leave the brits a transition period at the end of the year and has already signaled that it wont agree to an extension. Well now lets take a look at the all latest figures from the home nations as we await the official government announcement individual reports from england scotland wales and Northern Ireland tally to 360 more deaths in the past 24 hours and that brings the u. K. Wide death toll to over 21000 britain coronavirus scottish 1st minister nicholas sturgeon has unveiled a range of courses to help people to learn new skills amid the pandemic and the Public Health Agency Launches a Contact Tracing Pilot Program in Northern Ireland in a bid to prevent a 2nd wave well heres how the pandemic is affecting the rest of the world according to Johns Hopkins university which collects worldwide data almost 3000000 cases have been confirmed over 207000 deaths have been recorded and over 876000 recoveries. They started coming just. Leaving because think tank says an increase in state surveillance is a price worth paying to get over the pad i think but is it good from both sides of the debates. The millions of races of forced to choose between left or food bills as the lockdown threatens incomes across the u. K. When else child small seemed wrong wrong when all were all just dont hold. Any new world belief yet to shape our disdain and become advocates and in gains from an equal betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. British workers currently further juta the outbreak could find 2nd jobs picking the nations fruit and vegetables in the cellar thats according to the environment secretary who says the number of labor has come into work from abroad was much lower than needed were back to start the british season in Fresh Produce in saw fruits and salads we estimate that probably only about a 3rd of the migrant labor that would normally come to the u. K. Is here and was probably here before lock down and we are working with industry to identify an approach that will encourage those millions of furloughed workers in some cases to consider taking a 2nd job helping get the harvest in june its not an issue at the moment since the harvest has barely begun but we do anticipate that there will be a need to help recruit staff for those sectors in the month of june. Over 3000000. 00 britons have been furloughed on reduced pay since the crisis began with a further 1400000. 00 applying for universal credit where the farmers are worried that their crops will be left to rot and go to waste if they dont get more help during a harvest this month grose defended chartering a flight for 158. 00 remaining workers arguing they were skilled laborers who returned to the same farms each season. Or farmers were not a workforce of around 60000. 00 to help with the harvest each year despite the industrys efforts to encourage more british base pickers nearly 9 in 10 workers have to be recruited from abroad usually from Eastern Europe lol unsociable hours make it difficult to attract britons at times of almost full employment at least before the crisis and its physically demanding with those doing the job often living far away from the farms while the level of pay off and the minimum wage also makes other industries more attractive. An increase in states of violence as a price worth paying of britons to come through the Coronavirus Crisis according to a leading think tank for Tony Blair Institute for Global Change set up by the former british Prime Minister argues that its the least worst option available the price of this is an unprecedented increase in digital surveillance in normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies but these are not normal times alternatives are even more unpalatable. The Institution Says that official Contact Tracing apps should be released but should not be compulsory it points to a Digital Credential like a community in order to help lift the lockdown and allow people to return to work with us as a privacy focus options and a transparent approach should be adopted as well as real time cross referencing data from Health Care Systems and private companies. There should be sharing of patient data though anonymous in the search for treatments and vaccines or the National Health service is already testing a new Contact Tracing or that could help to keep the virus under control yep is designed to let people know if they have been in close contact with someone who has coronavirus france germany and other countries and else that there would store data on a central server and proceed activists say the public must be able to trust their data are secure and essential there are many roads for the u. K. Government to choose in lifting the lockdown and determining technologys role within a collaborative previous see preserving model would be best for preserving the trust incompetence of the British Public. So should the government increase digital surveillance to ease the lock down or not i am joined by barrister and former n. H. S. Senior nurse Rebecca Butler lawyer political and womens rights activist dr showed up moores shock but even thank you very much indeed for joining us firstly we can make this that compulsory and still protect digital privacy. Well that is what the government is going to have to demonstrate to us i have no i have no issue with the use of technology and the technology is definitely one of the key tools we must use but when it comes this pandemic there are serious questions that we have to we have to ask so for instance with this ad im struggling to see a direct correlation with the Practical Impact of using the Contact Trace an app and the absence of mass testate so you want people to be able to know that someone theyre close to us on they know what it means contact with has exhibited symptoms but there is no mass testing that they will for people out of the mass density would be far more important right now and data the information that were going to share whos going to own it whos controlling it what what kind of you know information do we have to share on this app when is it going to be sent to things like that i think that absolutely important questions to ask and have answered ok lets get a response from rebecca counterpoints there mass testing is a lot better than an app and also can we be sure this data is safe. Well i think the safety issue is something that has to be dealt with and and i agree it was shown that you know that that does have to be addressed the you has fairly strict Data Protection regulations in place and as long as this is purpose only for one thing which is tracing and isolating the cases then i dont see a problem with it being done on shonas comments about testing i think what is being missed here a little bit is that we are anticipating at least one more spike of this virus so when the 100008 day becomes possible were at 50 at the moment and he you know matt hancock has committed 2100000 tests by the beginning of may then we are looking at being able to have a different style lockdown should the 2nd peak of this pandemic happen and i think people dont really appreciate that the testing tracing an isolating has actually been missed for wave number one were well beyond that now so lack of Testing Capacity which was a global problem is now resolved in the u. K. So this is about preparing us for the next wave and if i just can say bill the other thing is this isnt the only solution Contact Tracing has to be done by physical humans as well and theyre looking at 18000 members of the bowl interior force to contribute to it it cannot only be on a mobile phone asho not what were hearing from record that is a chance of another wave another peak and short of this app could save hundreds if not thousands of lives and why worry about the issues previously i mean that thats a price worth paying with in a crisis. I have no doubt those problems you know its the 2nd. Well 1st of growth when it comes to the. Impact on the public but what were talking about here is you know the Contact Tracing has been absolutely not dealt with by the government because it delayed and its that undoing that and the fact that when you think about how were going to engage on people or doing the lock down cell isolating sharing the necessary information all of that is important but with the absence of mass testing i love anything that we shouldnt pay a price for it everybodys been apprised of it and those who have pain that i am price are those on the front line so we have to bear in mind that there is also 0 trust in this government you talk about capacity being a few 1000 right now where the government is actually not able meet in the socalled capacity writers have to rebecca she is not a track lets hear from her back and give her a chance to 1000 as a couple of things does she want to respond to that lets hear from rebecca this is dealt with so politics im sorry this is a disgrace i love this its not this is not a political adult dont know longish one at a time please lets just to just one of the turners here rebecca. No Political Party in government would have been able to achieve the volume of free agents and physical testing kits required nobody would have been able to do that this is not a political matter in fact many commentators many epidemiologists believe the government went too early on not account not too late so accusations of dithering but but that its not ok fair enough that rebecca can we get back to the side of privacy there is a risk that 3rd Party Involvement could compromise Data Security this is very private information that people are obviously giving so you can understand why previously is an issue here and of course is a toll that could be used in the future when this epidemic its all over yes and this is something ive commented on before is that you you want to look for an end date for intrusion into your private life so i do understand the privacy argument but even you know tony blair has issued a paper on his foundation and he has said that this is a necessary sacrifice for coming out of lockdown its absolutely that is absolutely correct the 2nd way the 2nd wave of this academic is going to happen and to prevent the Economic Disaster of this 1st lockdown weve got to have compromises in our personnel and what is the use of technology it would be good nobody is denying that there will be a 2nd wave what were talking about here whether it comes to privacy is how that information is all of that i part of question is asked what im also saying is mass testing is actually a little more important we do not know what you have all the information from the out how are you going to provide testing to prove that this person has put in one thing do you have the backup of m h s 2 needed to provide that person hospital treats thats because right now that people are suffering from caught it like seeing. They call 7 that number theyre not human being so this is jackal what to do with politics everything that is happening today in bacteria lives so when people dont trust the government when they see that this didnt really add delay or ill write a question and just say that actually im going to challenge what is happening here ok i can see the cake showed up as i said big shark thank you nic we are were out of time were out of were out of time sort of we just need one more response now to balances out from rebecca just finally your final comments please rebecca ok so testing capability is now up to 100000 a day everybody who has this disease does not need to go into hospital shown is totally wrong about that on the science what this is is about isolating but im sorry rebecca Testing Capacity hasnt reached 100000 as it yet but it will abide by the end of the month it will be there by thursday. Thats all thats fine bill we have had a global problem with reality chintz and testing kits all right so its got to get there and the sooner it does then we have to get out of this lockdown if i could just very quickly make a point bill that were active 50000 capability already but the numbers of people presenting for it are only 23000 yesterday so there is not demand for testing at the moment rather than will be. Right up to the way that we are at a time times a part of that rebecca thank you very much indeed for joining us thats right. Millions of renters are facing a financial crisis as the Pandemic Forces many to fall behind on rent payments but an underage takes a look at those forced to choose between buying food and paying for a roof over their heads as the u. K. Continues its lock down the financial implications are affecting millions one in 6 of the force some extra financial help to stay afloat with some even made to choose between buying stude and rent. Well im a single im at the moment theres no gigs theres no wetsuit so. And then the work i do. The work. In the morning i. Think. There are 4500000 households live in private rented accommodation of which 60 percent have suffered financially because of the coronavirus lock down although landlords are blocks from a victim to have it for 3 months millions are concerned that after the 12 week hiatus there will be a huge surge in evictions when the current restrictions are lifted. Well some tenants have negotiated rent holidays max levy in essex has chosen to pay his with a small amount of savings but hes now left with little money for anything else and has resorted to finding food from his own garden and local boards. So are exercise walks well go through a ways to go down to the local park the local words people working overtime and just eyes are open i know you area quite well so i know where different transcriber going basis a shes a leak rich or really delicious dandelions whole graded loads of parts and even in the garden at the back of our gardens a little bit im kept stinging nettles there harvest them 2 or 3 times a week magnetic syrup so yeah you can do a lot just with the wages around here of course it shouldnt have to come to that there is help out there if you know where to turn even before this crisis we were hearing from people who were having to make those decisions people had instant payday loans just to feed decades so we were to knew that the safety net the Social Security net that people depended on just didnt exist so its a get help there is support out there get in touch with step change for example a step change of all there is help out there we can not put him in the right direction any benefits you might be entitled to you might be touched universal credit might be types of hardship funds so dont suffer in silence you speak up now and get the support that you might meet but getting help isnt always easy and takes time over 1000000 have applied for universal credit but with 1st payments weeks away many simply dont have the cash to pay for groceries right now with debts one option and loans the other for many who are struggling the end of this lockdown cannot come fast enough Martin Andrews r. T. U. K. London more news including todays government Coronavirus Press briefing in just over half an hour from now. The world is driven by dreamers shaped by phone personal those better. Than. The dares thinks. We dare to ask. And. Just been told. By a good line take. A long. Morning walk by the way. Yes