Hard to tell what normal even means at this point how will the college 19 or deal sheesh the way we run our politics economy and social relations well it just doesnt im now and joined by William Robinson professor of sociology at the university of california at Santa Barbara professor romans and its good to talk to you thank you for your time thank you for having me on i can see that youre also connecting with us you know a whole no no the only one you have in a whole order or almost a month. What its been like for you. Well were on yeah were on lockdown the University Closed over a month ago in the 1st week of march and we move to Online Education i mean this is a completely different like we know wont last forever but i also think that were never going to go back to normalcy it will be by normalcy is great pandemic and now youve been writing about the perils of have to receive globalization for many years and i think its fair to say that youve been traditionally reticle about and by the standards of the wall street journal i wonder if these last weeks and months have changed your analysis in any way not at all i think it confirms my analysis ive been arguing for the last decade or so that what were capitalism crisis is both a structural crisis and it is also a crisis of state when youre going to see in a capitalist edge of money and this pandemic did not cause the crisis you know only major they asked me yesterday and may and revealed to the whole world and its going to aggravate all of that the dimensions of the crisis the Health Emergency relents but were still going to be left with this dual crisis of structural the structural crisis of the economy and the political crisis of state legitimacy and have generally been mainway how base that structural crisis manager after its off is very interested and an accelerating inequality you know they talk like for sound a warning more than buy if. We. Undermine capital as a. Nation difficult to function its a bit like a snake eating its own tail i wonder how do you think they called it 19 pandemic is going to just bag these. Struggling system do you think its going to x. And its like time by a little bit or do you think it will be ultimately to final blow to. I dont know if this is going to be the final blow to the global capitalism and not at all i wish that were the case now but to be honest with you im a democratic socialist but lets look at whats happened a global inequalities are simply unprecedented weve never seen these levels you mentioned one percent controls over 50 percent of the worlds well welcome or relevant data is that 20 percent of the worlds people those that can supply them the system control 95 percent of the worlds wealth so 80 percent of the worlds population and. They cannot consume and so Global Economy has been pouring out over recent years and decades more and more well but the Global Market cannot absorb well so that has lets roll and stagnation this has been a crisis waiting to happen this year actually mention of a crisis and i just said you know it would have happened without the virus that myself but many others have been talking about us being on the verge of a major recession even deeper than a recession if the u. S. For instance that iran if tina had declared a moratorium on its debt that would have triggered this giant structural crisis and the measures that are being taken now to address merchants see their temporary measures but theyre going to aggravate the long term structural dimensions but i think what bastes. Ahmed 19 or deal dreams. Been assassin or structural rejection and what i mean by that is that Global Production change will have to reconfigure if i may you wanted an operating governments including the American Government i now actively thinking about bringing to production oh. Supply home and data hardly a positive development when the transnational capital classes. Yes but thats temporary on the contrary what i refer to as transnational elites have been some have been actually well 1st of all the measures taken by governments especially. The u. S. Government is oh is good just very similar to 2006 and those measures that only only going to aggravate you until one structural contradictions of global capitalism i think the problem is with the thinking of salmond the thinking and if planning because one thing that the creatures of capitalism have now been taking into account is a risk that the Global Economy can come to a halt their weight happened over the last couple of weeks and months and once you factor that enter your notion of profitability changes dramatically all of a sudden the world stops being your only star and its easy to see how localizing production and consumption in a wide specific area may see like if they for auction and i prefer the guy x. Actually its going to give bill a big governments and local communities more Bargaining Power in dealing with this huge company well this chamber that doesnt mean theyre going to get their way i mean the only way out of this crisis is a major restructuring of the system it cannot continue with this nail liberal capitalist it was a should model of the last several decades but so far what states are doing in a suggestion way that the principle state in the world the strongest in the world the United States is recreating what we did in 2008 which is to send mr brown to resources to the banks so you are right that we cant continue the way we were and youre also right that a lot of transnational beats and state officials are recognizing that but that doesnt translate into the banks and the Global Corporations that drive the Global Economy to actually force them to undertake major restructuring and there is a robinson to be a fairy fairy i think what we see around the world is the governments giving assistance not only to use and Large Industries but also to die most vulnerable citizens there is a lot of talk about the introduction of basic income. Many governments are sending checks that are here and maybe thats not an odd but i think that. Thats a bit of a difference from how it was handled in 2008 lets look at this the figure and this is the economist magazine economist just gave us this figure that already 7 trillion dollars have been approved at least stimulus packages just in to European Union and the United States 1st of all the best majority of that is going to corporate bailouts and secondly its going into injection of money into the banks to do it they want the banks are not obliged to help yes yes theyre released true grounds but theyre not going to resolve the structural crisis theyre basically crimes that are better in some countries like germany and denmark right here in United States 2400. 00 for a family of you know 2 grand winners is absolutely nothing its irrelevant perms and well when you multiply it by millions that have actual lot of money taken out of a state coffers you know its a few billions of dollars its absolutely not and but but look at Something Else also theres also billions of dollars here in the United States going to Small Business they are getting long in 3 months they have to pay back their bills modes so theres no real fundamental restructuring here the same thing for instance the i. M. F. Just announced a trillion dollar package for poor countries and us and its and a moratorium on current more tournament pavements but once they have to resume payments were going to be back in the same situation. Because theyre on the internet isnt it also chair that initially one shadows sat. Stimulus measures were announced they were more in line with what has been done before but i think the governments are and asking it as they go away and there is a will act are there youre right a discussion in the United States that some of those laws can be written off even to Companies Keen to die and lawyers are the majority of the employees employed so. We cant be certain how did this how wrong this day is going to ultimately manifest itself that well lets put it like this the battle for what will happen after the Health Emergency itself rastas is now underway and there are certainly many horses here among states among transnational race that are saying we need a major restructuring and this is the starting point for these kind of can as in stimulus measures and the really programs and if these voices win them then that would be that would certainly be a way forward but currently we dont have any indication that theyre going to or not and the real economic and financial me main with the banks and we name with those sectors of the globe or corporate class that are simply course in some more profit making and more sturdy now you mentioned a moment ago that they see this crisis as a crisis of state legitimacy and i think Many Political strategists would disagree with you because. They would suggest that this crisis if anything has reasserted the importance of a nation state that you may just like i dont shrug i know you do but it is dont know chopras telling g. M. What to do not the other way around hasnt called it 19 actually reasserted the importance of nations maybe as a way to reorganize our social lives absolutely im not arguing anything differently and on the contrary the crisis demonstrates that we need to state we need spencer ventured in the market in the economy we need state regulation when i speak about a crisis of state richard a receiver generally im not referring to that own research into how billions of people around the low. World dont consider their own governments in their own states legitimate dont trust in those governments and in a capitalist system to resell their survival needs. To mention chunk i in one of your articles here accused him of quote criminal inaction and as a spy i took it upon himself to close borders before it became Standard Practice he took a lot of criticism for that as well im sure one can find many peoples records actions but isnt it inevitable that any government would be elaborate in dealing with so many and elams. And then in the case of look at trump this is very clear the timeline is very clear on january 30th the World Health Organization declared local and out of the global emergency and trump all he did after that announcement was to suspend flights from china and we lost all of that during the 1st quarter part question of march it wasnt until march 14th the jump just layered a National Emergency so we last 6 weeks and during those 6 weeks trump was saying that this is a democratic hopes that the whole economy is going to reopen in april 1st that more people die of the flu than of this pandemic so absolutely you cant defend trump is criminal inept its a no thats not the case for other governments around the world i mean look at the fantastic job of the south korean government that much i just reopened again but as far as is trump i would defend that criminal ineptitude and i know that you have an issue with glorious ads that as a moral and ethical category act previous a couple of years ago back in the beautiful fair world of in the future well have to and downed a National Citizenship and when it comes to and gag orders really very well line of that balance i may not well yes for a Health Emergency but thats very different than what ive been arguing we have several hundreds of millions of transnational migrants we have an increasingly globally its a great Reduction Service and Financial System and capital and corporations have been moving around the world in finance with many more accelerated fashion for the last few decades and yet people and people have been to an increasingly economy such as the u. S. Economy is dependent on transnational my grans are but puzzles my manz migrants when they go from one person to another of the World Economy and play a Critical Role in that economy they dont have civil rights they dont have medical rights they dont have the rights of citizenship so thats an extremely unjust arrangements. And they also have any chance of getting a square tell you that they are also driving the wages down as make Labor Protections while the local. Population is far more precarious do you think theyre wrong on that. Absolutely the wrong because 1st of all here in the United States we have our right here in california which is one of the best of all worlds now we have an incredible labor source shortage the if this Health Crisis continues california will collapse and the majority of those articles will workers are immigrants and i dont know any u. S. Citizens that can get any job it has for Political Rights that want to go in extraordinary in the field but thats not the larger issue i think wait. A minute and after g a week so much of isolation im sure there will be a lot of people we should use it become stronger is i mean i want to pull out your mike now im so sick and tired of you know we have to take a short break right now and perhaps if youre. One of the. Working from home but maybe well be back in a few moments thank you. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy confrontation let it be an arms race in this on all fronts clearly Dramatic Development the only relief im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical guy time to sit down and talk. To. Welcome back to roles at the park with William Robinson professor of sociology abby university of california counterpart direction i said speaking about the response to this pandemic i think its a bit counter to egypt and even ironically that the countries with the most laissez faire economies like lets say the United States had to impose strikes have a restrictions on businesses while a country like sweden and this beacon all what and they socialists chose not to do that which approach youre more sympathetic to. Absolutely the traumatic a lockdown is crucial and necessary in the United States and European Countries are the ones and the kit but my biggest concern that we have to look at the whole world and the lockdown which is imposed for instance in india in the Central American countries and south africa where 6070 percent of the population is in the Informal Sector and besides its a lot like if youre homeless and you just probably is living in one single rule only left on the message that we do need at least you know in france in the United States and russia is actually a death sentence for hunt you know hundreds of millions or billions of people in other parts of the world yeah thats actually a very Crucial Point that south isolation is a strategy if you are sending this pandemic is a privilege that not everybody can afford now and we are yet to see how different approaches that how outcomes in Different Countries i think its fair to say that for the time being more than sway then and in the United States the dow toll continues to climb but i think its also true that these kind of a long downeys absolutely unprecedented i mean its a shameful or a bend in the history of capital is nothing of the sort has ever been that something on cheers shoggoth by where is this calibrated and b. Our. Easement beach it was instituted almost everywhere in the world i mean the little reaches countries of the well thats me right you know about what that shows is if the major states in the world can almost overnight lock down the population and close down the economy for the Health Emergency then the same can be done through the economic and social emergency that weve been facing long before the pandemic i mean that moves the points and that and that also through the claim that perhaps they said transnational capital is im not as. Strong and carter plan in the actual as in your theory them to be. No i dont think that proves the point at all because again if again you know this lockdown and the paralysis of the company is very temporary but then measures taken and thats why i stressed this points earlier the measures taken to take trillions of dollars and give notes of the banks to do as they will suggests that the transnational capitalist class is going to come out of this winning unless you know theres theres both state give theres more of like members of the elites and states and unless theres also some mystery government you know mass strikes and pressures from below to do something different. I mean because europeans are talking about bad before and that if the banks in deep can keep me and read that old ways that would be true that will reduction and because as you very adequately argue you know capitalism can all go on for the like bad being the structural imbalance that exists where you know they dont reach having all the money and be the rest of us having no money to spend ultimately makes capitalism incapable of functioning why should they come up with some bare alternative for that state yes absolutely but the thing is that an individual corporations individual a capitalist have only one thing that theyre interested in is maximizing profit so we need state and mess up your control and regulation well richard little and i hate to be the point but lets remember what happened in 2008 it was clear that we needed major restructuring and 42082020 not only did we not get a major restructuring of the system but all of the programs were deep bench so the lessons of 2008 say that after we give these you know the Health Emergency things are going to continue to deepen to get worse unless states and it lightens elites and masses for go have the ability to impose a restructuring and to know whats. And except on who you know character it on the Trans National cut was last. I know that you believe that once they spend down make is all more at many of our societies will look more like police they said or rob there and cruel will police say isnt that a bit too just ok and because even if some governments that prompts you to temptation of making this Emergency Powers more permanent their resources for maintaining this sort of regime indefinitely actually and we deplete it its not in that interest you know right before this in december 2019 u. S. Congress approved over 800000000000. 00 write the biggest military budget in in in history right now the central lloyds coordination of this crisis to deal with it and we need but truly a centralized coordination isnt sense of occasion of control of surveillance of the movements of people and so what lose no reason to assume that they counter with states especially the u. S. They began which is a center of the world you know the global system and the military Industrial Complex theres no reason to believe that theyre going to pull back on what i call the increasing move towards of local Police States right now we have a wave of strikes and mass discontent the United States to the extent that there is more rebellion from below against Global Inequality right and against the and against everything going on to the extent that it escalates after the emergency has lifted were going to have more pressure from above to impose social control on track connie and well look at the state take measures that any police face that matters that require centralization and i think over in this crisis may have been seen because of centralization yard talking about the many of the traditionally more essential eyes space like russia and china that has been. You know weve seen from delegation of Decision Making to regional authorities and i think even in the United States the federal government has been acting more like. Sort of you know has been lying charges logistics than anything else what is there to support this theory is a Global Police state i mean if. There is a known Global Community anymore everybody is scary for them south of time what i mean by a Global Police state is that 1st of all as we started this interview with these incredible mobility quality and unless those inequalities are a mirror related the really roots need to clamp down at the best discontent a rebellion which is generated by that inequality whether or not the clampdown is centralized and giants states and certainly remember it will be a police state is that increasingly the whole local economy has been calling itself out of stagnation by wars and by conflicts and system of social control and repression and unless there is an alternative willing out of stagnation the global can as you newsoms on social spending from raising will demand theres no reason to expect were not going to see more intensified conflict around the world which becomes very difficult for corporations and banks that finance themselves or. You know i have a child in the soviet union i think the major difference between the old style author of clarity of public mind a century and be there to use that allegory terry neal is exactly how digital those social controls are when the state openly that crisis its the place clear which is why they got splendid when its done a great clique when people believe that they are actually really when dad being controlled its much harder to resist is or to hold wanting to craigslist who knew the billy joe people being in charge on their own lives and if you arent you are should read Police Matters it will become apparent that theyre not. Right well i think this you know to let the local police state beats down on on 2 different populations that 20 percent you and i 2 meant of the listeners who can get by and maybe even florissant to this this system sure theres more surveillance on us. Bones are now going to be you know monitor every movement and so forth but but were not the principal you know targets of the Global Police say the principle targets are again you know that the 700000000 transnational refugees and people in war zones the targets of Global Police they dont where for instance war so at least by the United States in iran or in iraq just in order to generate costs in those places of them they have just displacement you know destruction of their lives that are victims of Global Police state i mean its not so much human rights you know what well i think there are many 20 percent are also struggling quite a lot i tend to approach these issues from a Public Health risk that there are and i think that the current consumerist affinities the way to exist in the United States and the way to being spread around the world is outlawing ultimately decide who are. An addict a neurotic middle balik lee does the right individual who consumes more than he or she needs who waste just as much and well out of it now becomes a cash cow one medical and all are all sorts of services i mean to some extent you know karkare ations are a just and i was living longer but having miserable life so that me d. A source of income and i wonder do you think college 19 would be big enough to risk here who are people to pay more attention to how they choose to consume yeah but i mean youre making a really good point and i have to add that you know full blown critique of consumerism but you know one of the good things i see coming out of this emergency is the nail role model which again i mean i dont like global capitalism but particularly its nailed the role very and weve been in place for several decades and what isnt generated at the cultural in the social level is consumerism narcissism individual ism and alienation as you pointed out but what were seeing now is. This Health Emergency is sparking a new sense of solidarity of mutual aid of connectedness to other people so again the this emergency is a turning point and whats going to come after it not just in terms of the economy that weve been speaking about acquittal systems but in terms of you know consciousness and cultural systems as one open now to struggle what comes next well speaking of god when this nearly of your own model there are some x. Rays especially here in russia who believe that the crisis of capitalism that created this guy and right now was in many ways sort of ad dreamed determined by the collapse of the sony of muni and and the discrediting all the leftist ideas based on being an ideological balance to near liberal ideas which ultimately produce this runaway globalization and inequality what norm would dare say if going to take some hybrid of that unit do you have any idea. What mission be expiring to you i think the type of restructuring we need to struggle horns clients or at this point involves extending like what we have right now is definitely spending and knesset in stimulus we most need to restore tour towards a global can as it is and that raises Global Demand among that 80 percent we need to move towards systems where states once again regulate the market regulate what corporations and Financial Institutions can do we need to rebuild public sectors especially public and also educational sectors and social welfare systems we need to tax the rich and have progressive taxation rather than repressive taxation we need to have capital controls on financial speculation across borders we need kroger policies we need in the United States and weve been calling a green new jail all of that is what we need and its even within global capitalism thats not moving beyond. Well and professor norman some we also have to leave it there because our time is up but im really grateful to you for sharing your insights with us today thank you thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for watching and hope to syria and next week on the world of pride and they say and stay at home. Please. Dont. Come. In the stores the shite the week. Of automated ideal checks to allow essential travel during the law but after the initial past system stuff the big problem is on the citys metro and. Look. This doesnt make sense to. See say their lives are being put at risk by the governments failure to supply hospitals with protective gear and french teachers and doctors criticize the state not reopen the School Spying it may calling it chill and dangerous