Smuggling of Nuclear Warhead blueprints to iran to perhaps create war who knows specifically lewis said you and that case was a relevant benchmark for the prosecution and sentencing does that mean we will get a 175 years at least i was facing are also over a 100 years based on yes you know its our chance that i was alerted by radio he may not only in my case that be in the church are going to be clear in stating that the sensing geir arts or way out of balance i think should realize and understood that it was a completely circumstantial evidence with no case and the government actually proved nothing but dark being on the governments side certainly going to hear and sentence me to i guess she thought it was a sunni only our 42 months in prison lined out that mr assad will receive that same mercy or weve talked to people. Whove been in the court they say they can see all the u. S. Officials and then you hear a british q. C. 2 speaking the words what do you think why do you think they might have been using your case so early on in the proceedings at this south london court and they trying to tie up the cia are they trying to connect a publisher and journalist to someone who like you consider themselves a wrongly convicted former cia officer i think what theyre doing is. Considering be efforts to use the espionage act with their own called a darn good job. To quiet the sentence acquired free speech i think it does make sense and where you know her purse or wait for them to mention my case because there was an appeal in my case where the government wont be appeal to i only saw our own clearing me confusion about whether the government would go after the press were any journalists or by i mean just you know. Be silenced case extradition proceeding is a further a starbucks and it shows that the government my government ole will use any method necessary to acquire what did you make of them then saying the same q. C. Lewis representing the usa pointing out that wiki leaks cables were founded well hes a former cia proxy asama bin ladens house in pakistan what do you think where do you think if they were going with that case to try and get as signage to virginia its all about him its and they want to create an image so mr summers hes an enemy suger free moral that hes a terrorist if you will and making him sort of connection with. Some of the larger just fulfils their purpose to make that image the bible or any other court in the world with me during my trial the only thing that i see. For the trial the only thing a crew would be. A reasonable doubt was that i was black and they have theirs they have to show during march because there is no evidence that i was there is on the ruling on american black men who have the nerve to stand up against the cia and u. S. Government yeah in your book i wanted to spy the persecution of an american whistleblower you say that racism the worst racism was not in missouri it was in Northern Virginia where they want to bring julian a songes of course a publisher and i and a journalist not even a whistleblower what would he be facing you said not only racism but a right wing ideology exists in that area similarly that court of virginia is they are our home field if you will give us their court routinely. Rules in favor of the government with the conservative hammer everything the worst law what i face even with regards to jury there was no one on that yuri that was black you know out in american most of the members of that jury also had some sort of connection with our security clearances so there was already that i think assumption by. That they better do the right thing by religious or maybe they were a mountain so he could not receive a fair trial in virginia i dont think thats certainly what the United Nations special opportunity as well to told us on mondays a show but the defense team also saying that this trial which the british authorities think is worth having here in london they say that the cia cut out they allege a cia cut that Spanish Security firm was bugging the conversations of the lawyers we had Geoffrey Robertson q. C. One of the top human rights barristers in the world him saying that that the cia were up to this kind of thing is that the kind of thing that the cia do bug peoples conversations with their lawyers i think you know i had word snowden show rebirth sort of a. Activity by cia or n. S. A. Is certainly possible and does indeed happen i cant so i cannot of course speak to any direct knowledge or apne but there is certainly within the earth you and capability of either also organizations well you wouldnt be able to tell me. In the. Helping the enemy thats another thing the barrister for the United States of america versus Julian Sanchez said and he said theyre also the official secrets act trumps the un charter and the european human rights act what do you make about this helping the enemy charge i think again their past to go into the enemy there and i think its quite disingenuous of the state to make any sort of claims about any sort of harm because if you eventually years since to america to face trial under the espionage act the government doesnt have to prove any sort of harm for them to do so now all bolster extradition i think just shows that this is a political prosecution what its like what the soviet union. Yes absolutely they have to portray this matter and as an enemy. Particularly to the United States and to the world it will be a very sad day for speech and Legal Process in general you know years mr science extradited to the u. S. The lawyer again noted to the judge that theres no Public Interest defense for a publisher or a journalist that was changed in this country not sure whether youre up to speed on this a the family of a u. K. Teenager killed by an alleged cia spy they have been supporting Julian Assange saying they want to see i suspected cia spy to cool us and to cool us extradited here but they dont want to sign its taken away from just being a journalist is it one rule for the cia and one for not cia oh absolutely absolutely a dirty murder trial it was an incredible war out there you saw are claiming National Security National Secrets was only for their benefit. As i stayed in my book i sued the c. R. A. For discrimination my suit was not allowed to go forward because the c. I. A and b. Didnt administration claim backs if i were to go or work with my discrimination case there were holes a threat to the National Security of the United States u. S. Government in general will use it to their defense and also use it to go after its enemies yet that same sort of situation is not allowed to be used by individuals who are complaints about the u. S. Or trying to stand up to the u. S. Government so is it is excess for strategy because they can point to you and right now if there is someone thinking of blowing the whistle on wrongdoing in langley at headquarters or it the myriad cia stations around the world they just cant now again its a strategy of deterrence theyre all chilled out if you say anything that we dont like oh well go at you and look weak. Jeffrey sterling who stepped out why it will be such a one sided affair where the government is able to do whatever they will are there in the trial but anyone trying to defend against that because of the complications. Of the National Security will be very difficult i did my best fight against all of that. It was a hell of about and of course is not just purely innocent to the u. N. Repertoire says torture knob charlie detained by british authorities here its Chelsea Manning who refuses to testify against a songe and who who is imprisoned there in the United States obama commuted jealousy manning sentence of 35 years saying it is disproportionate your Vice President mike pence said there was a mistake to commute the sentence do you think u. S. Authorities really want a songe manning dead is an example i dont know that they want her back would not serve the purpose of putting these individuals up as an example of what can happen if anyone decides to whistle or say or do you really think it may be an embarrassment to the u. S. Government how would you advise someone out there right now who has seen wrongdoing in the Intelligence Services the Intelligence Community the military Industrial Complex given what youve been through i would say stick to. Your inclination and stick to yourself and your guns and gold stay the course oh dont be intimidated by threats of. Retaliation are reprisal those are very real aspects concerning whistleblower but for anyone to even say the steps to think about coming forward that in itself is a very powerful. Thing to do hopefully with the discussion or was Laura Service happen maybe we can finally see more protections whistleblowers take it out of the. Political round. I think yes i mean that be a good example for someone who is wealthy to expose government wrongdoing but its doing the right thing its a unique person and i think even with these actions against me Kelsey Manning johnson react to you and julian and sons. I think you can despite that people have integrity. And know how to do the right thing and i dont think this is going to squelch any of that even if it isnt covert attempt at infringing the u. N. Charter that you wouldnt advise a whistleblower a journalist a publisher any of them to to attack the intelligence of his for racism you know i am not saying dont do anything like that because there are certainly reprisals but im just saying stand up be yourself stick to your integrity and stick to your conscience and regardless of how big the enemy may be you can stand up for yourself and you can fight against these individuals may not be a good outcome but as i have always myself i would never let you all see to something that i did not did and i would never be able to face myself in the mirror doing such a thing so contrary to my character and i think the same things can be said about Chelsea Manning John Kiriakou emmett yet Julian Jeffrey sterling thank you my pleasure thank you very much after the break the head of the 128 but they have britains labor party and as members start voting on a replacement for Jeremy Corbin we also have all the labor cabinet minister of the party of the working class is relevant in Boris Johnsons birth oliseh morgan have a budget of going underground. For all this is driven by a dream. Thinks. We dare to ask. Im not for decapitating anybody but i am for to capitalizing all the wall street bankers by shifting the center of gravity of money from the dollar and fear to a bit coin and thats perfectly within our purview into our scope as global citizens who wish Justice Justice truth free competition and hard money thats the only justice stud matter thats a stain of all thats real that doesnt rely on politicians. Welcome back well to more of the 120th birthday of the British Labor party now thanks to Jeremy Corbyn the largest socialist movement in any major country but the party now if i did self amidst an increasingly fractured leadership battle of the defeat at the polls in december joining me now is former labor cabinet minister lord clarke of when dimia who served as child serve the duchy of lancaster under tony blair you also served as they were shadow secretary defense and shadow agriculture minister your black thank thanks for coming on the show corbin turned into the largest social movement repeatedly in western europe is it now finished you know far from it and i think weve got a funk Jeremy Corbyn for the way hes got all of a nice support and you know the last election december is very confusing because if you look at it in catastrophic well you say catastrophic but remember we normally have 40 seats in scotland we had one we had almost a wipe out in wales you know for labor we lost a lot of c. C. S. Time and if you look at england in spite of the red wall that the press are focused on weve done so much better in england in december 29th teen then we did in our last catastrophic election in 1983 in 1903 we won 209. 00 seats throughout britain including 40 in scotland. This election we won 203 seats 6 different despite scotland going there you know all about the Lake District you know the areas that is the. Kist alma chatter brecht and secretary is the argument the Mainstream Medias candidate to be the next labor leader was it just bricks that his disastrous breaks a policy that last called an election i dont think it was i mean bracks it was really symptomatic of a wider problem the seats we lost werent the city seats in the north seat in manchester new castle we won all the seats with mushy majorities we lost the seat on the fringes and news people were feeling alienated they didnt feel part of britain any longer and therefore the lashed out and brecks it was the way in which they showed their views but at the election we take working to i mean we rarely got brakes on the doorstep it was all until he called me. Described workington its an area which the Mainstream Media particularly homed in on as the bellwether seat of the december election yes it was it the press really picked up a good story there and run with it a neighbor rightly think i think the fuel that and the fuel the story but its an area which is 40 miles from the ems takes no really good road to get there and theyve always voted labor as indeed they do but on the road on top of that alienation they rebecca long bailey whos the core beneath a candidate touted by the Mainstream Media again. She said progressive patriotism you saw that patriotism as a clue to understanding these last oh yes because what youve got talking to labor voters have deserted us by and large it was the men whod. Speaking im going to say that and of course a disproportionate of young people in workington because theres not been jobs for years for decades so many of them have spent their time a few years in the army theyve got a trade there they would call it and theres nothing else nothing else but of course when they go back code the one thing you know that afghanistan or iraq just doesnt matter theyve been there they fought there and it made them even more pottery how to take the silver jeremy call being as. Dick a not was the key thing so many labor voters believe in their country nothing else to believe. Traditionally did nothing to believing and therefore they were they believed in britain right or wrong some may say that the reason Jeremy Coleman was able to increase the membership by such a great amount with a be able that never would vote or take part in Labor Party Politics they were inspired by corbin if we look at some of the pictures of the former prime ministers the few days before i mean this is in 120 years theyre all war prime ministers at the dam of the attlee obviously working with judge within the malaria merge and see for rubber to get the money for the n. H. S. As theres wilson who didnt go to vietnam but. Arguably covertly was involved in the vietnam war as a man called tony blair the 2 you served under yeah i mean we take her a wilson i mean he was very brave in vietnam he resisted America America was desperate to get us to go in to be how old wilson said were not going to go there and he obviously worked with the americans i mean clearly he did but he we werent part of that effort and i think he believed he paid the price for that lack of support for the vietnam war which killed 4000000 people maybe maybe thats right and you can judge it but i mean you go back to otley clearly i mean churchill was fighting the war utley was running the country and in a sense was preparing for i dont think you set out to do this but the outcome was he was preparing for that great labor victory in 45. 00 and that the labor party itself. All parts of the labor party ledger all the liberal labor leadership candidates will be talking about the great age of play in the n. H. S. And so on atlee we now know papers are still not being released about herbicides used in the malaya emergency how many thousands are killed under Clement Attlee his leadership isnt that the boy that we arent facing the fact that labor has been responsible for a brutal imperialism in all its time in power well im not sure if its right to try to judge events of 607080 years ago by todays standards thats the 1st thing the lack of knowledge the 2nd things if were going to survive eve taking up your own original point and prosper weve got to start looking forward weve got to offer something to the people of britain not only rebalancing between the southeast and the rest of the country but between parts of the rest of the country i mean i fought. And served by the way here you just said yes but i do mean moving the. Treasury to teesside in the well and moving the house a load where you work up there yeah go there before you well know he hasnt got before and hes got it wrong to start with why would you say your book its not typical of the red wall of the voted labor in your book or even what happened to his chance such a job and maybe maybe moving things up there was to do with the bad weather and the ability flooding going on up. Areas ok but care storm of the Mainstream Media obviously wants to be the heir apparent to all of this he voted against an investigation into tony blairs iraq war even to for mass surveillance in the Investigatory Powers Act he. Stayed on the welfare act which disproportionately affected men and women and children in the disabled he he he actually altered legal guidelines as head of the d. P. P. To charge those on benefits with fraud under the ford act so they could send 10 years in jail for mine the welfare claimant excesses Emily Thornberry wanted to think went away more 14 years. I mean kids dumber will be destroyed by the left of the body just for those things surely if hes later i mean than she did as a communist by the Mainstream Media well thats right thats one of the problems one has in the labor party and what weve always had that problem it may be great and i dont know i cant make a judgement even looking back after all those years we shouldnt forget the origins of the labor party and the beliefs of the labor party of using science and technology to make life better for the future of ordinary people in this country and nuts what i think we may have forgotten. In some of the recent years weve got to look to the for the future and that is what germany was getting at with broadband and it was loft at even though and of course there are food banks now in britain and one in 4 children are in poverty so by haps thats where the broadband was lost but wasnt corben appealing to that will sony an idea of technology and the the white white heat of technology he was absolutely right absolutely right we need our t. In every house in a country so generally corbin was absolutely right but on the other hand as i said the un report there for liberals to said the poverty chosen by the coalition to build democratic tory party was a political decision so bad is the inequality and wages have not kept up to that level since the napoleonic wars it Means Nothing broadband to someone who cant feed their family and needs a food bank to to eat tonight well no but weve got to look to the future and also learn from the past i mean the territory yes of the liberal coalition with the with the tories when they cut nurse training by 10000 a year for 3 years thats why were in the difficulty were in with you know a 100. 1000 people short in the Health Service where the whole services straining at the edges because of the cuts they made their territory was a big big mistake and we should not have forgotten the keynesian approach to economics which i was able as johnson seems to be employing now ok well just finally corruption is also being associated baps by the detractors in the Mainstream Media with the labor party whether we will since raincoats whether it be tony blairs cigarettes and the gambling obsession by gordon brown of putting betting shops on every high street which the tories i think of belittle what would care id say today about the labor party. Well of course the interesting thing is that the ston didnt things that hard it was after. Minimum wage. And all the other things that stood for Blair Tony Blair actually implemented with one exception keir hardie wanted to ban drinkers well and tony didnt go that far rightly so. But but i dont care i did well maybe tens of millions killed wounded or displaced from the war the yeah well working class people the internet anyone talking of yes i mean it is generally working class people not all who lose their lives in the labor party was formed 120 years ago certainly probably about 80 percent of the people in this country with their heartens now its less than 10 percent its a completely different world and labors got to adapt to that pretty quickly tony blair adapt to it and i do find it rather strange the way people constantly run down tony blair and the government and the gordon brown putting the 2 together they were a very successful government well theyre judged by one other doctor still talk about peer fire and new methods of hospital funding ive got to ask also about the major issue about the labor party as regards the Mainstream Media is not the minimum wage is not trade Union Workplace rights is not maternity leave. And these things it is anti semitism all the candidates say it is now anti semitic to call israel a racist endevor something one could one could even see in the Israeli Press do you consider all the leaders that and the semitism for them will be the key because the me Mainstream Media writes their priorities well the media certainly have an effect on that but. For the ordinary people in the country it is things like trade union rights a workers rights it is things like improving the Health Service its things like Maternity Care its things like when you discharged from hospital bucks what concerns people in this country and the conflation with selling weapons to the Israeli Government to factor in in children well i mean the whole effort of the labor government of trying to get you know the 2 parties solution the 2 countries solution is still in my judgment a lot its been discounted somewhat is still the most likely way forward to achieve to achieve a long term peace i mean it really shouldnt should perhaps shouldnt have happened although she has to go to create a separate country of the israel but we did im going to live with that one bombing in gaza this week. Thank you so much thank you thats one of your favorite episodes of the most recent season of going underground will continue to show your favorite episode to do well back on wednesday the 22nd of april until then try to keep safe and make sure to join me on the ground by following other news your Twitter Facebook instagram and. Join me every thursday on the alex simon show and ill be speaking to guest on the world of politics sports business im showbusiness ill see you then. Dont. You see the link you see on fine they can be said usually from the police and if. You take the safe little shop walk to see it next you dont. Get a solution safety feature. The sort of the. The world is driven by a dream shaped by one person with those. Military thinks. We dare to ask. German government propose to gradually lift the nation wide lockdown saying the code 19 hour break is under control but refugee shelters see a surge in infections also coming this hour. As the largest state sponsor of pandemics and this is the 3rd the 4th pandemic that came out of china u. S. Politicians continue to blame china with one republican senator there saying washington should respond with sanctions. Thousands of orthodox churches around the world. Believe the stay at home for easter this year holy fire ceremony in jerusalem will be taking place even without
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