Maybe that the americans are crazy i mean russia hacked the election and now chinas poison in america and. America needs reparations is what im seeing on the American Media i mean im in new zealand im halfway between east and west have family in asia family in the west and i was calling in early february back into the United States telling them what they. Were saying and they would listen people got angry with me they were like the American Media was a like 45 days behind asia i have friends in saigon in taipei you who are not locked down there going to work you know they havent missed my daughter in taipei hasnt missed any time so this blaming china reparations you know maybe we could start at the beginning you know theres 3000000 dead people in Southeast Asia because of us fly not. Aircraft carriers in the South China Sea and by i mean vietnam we could start with reparations there one food of laos has so Many American bombs and that they can even use it i mean lets get real and lets Work Together as a world here. You know well that would be great and that would be the most important takeaway from this pandemic is to Work Together but what weve seen is just the opposite weve seen its every man for himself and thats very disquieting brad let me come to you. Its part of my profession i watch a lot of american cable news and look at the manger broadsheets and number one their knowledge of china is very very poor this gives me an opportunity to put jamess book here which is very very good of the china mirage but you know it seems to me that again you know theres a great deal of buyers remorse of her globe the globalization of the last 40 years because it was supposed to be china was supposed to become like the United States thats whats another mirage all right but china braced globalization and unashamedly it was china 1st because they were a sovereign nation and they and they pursued their National Interests here and now just because they have a large trading relationship with the United States why should they compromise their sovereignty because they dont go ahead brah. I think best definitely true but i think we have to like qualify whether. Its china 1st so 1st i want to say that i think its definitely true that the westerners we have a proper 1st mentality certainly have capitalist economy that is their d state which propagates capital and capitalists are able to profit from the system that if the state that the state exists to protect Capital Capital doesnt sing and whatever social utility comes out of that the certainly the best with the fact. This i think it works perfectly as designed they fall short term profits exactly what they wanted and thats exactly whats happening now but the relationship that china has especially with the people with the economy that it has the markets the time they have a different relationship and a different social contract with their people and of course its not driven by this the profit 1st mentality that have like the communist party china has a credible political will send best and Sustainable Human Development to the public infrastructure. And so the relationship that china projects whereas the u. S. Has long been an eye for the capital and draining resources from the peripheral nations back to the fact the United States what people call serialism united as their relationship to china has of the world its its located really different from it in that to be full cooperation just so happens that this is usually to the benefit of a nation that then ill give you one example people like to say that time is also engaging in imperialism by investing in other countries. I think you say to some extent for example when i was in south america you could. Some of the investments ecuador both a. B. M. But for example when im around president of bolivia they were trying to do German Companies sign incessant listening deposits and in bolivia and i think the race that they were going to if the bleeding and people would say ok well file these resources 7 or whatever percent. Bolivia was able to negotiate up to that with the company the chinese will give you like 51 percent and you know people can compare this but 51 percent of resorts compared to the. Qualify. For a fact of life fairly. But if the federal law. Prohibits radcliffe its a very good example because that is and that is an economic trade interest its not necessarily a geo political one and thats a great deal of american trade is geopolitically driven ok but as quantitatively different you know james one of the things i find very methodically over the last few months is that the American People have rediscovered been told that its a communist country and conjuring up the cold war again as it is as an enemy but you know most of the pundits on t. V. Are stupid and they dont know much about history whatsoever and they even know less about china but during the cold war 2 the west had very little if very very little trading trade with the soviet union and now youve found a legally different reality where we found out how interdependent or even dependent in one direction when it comes to Like Pharmaceuticals that the United States is dependent so i think you see them in this kind of. Very hardcore rhetoric on one side but the reality is that were hooked at the hip you feel like it or not or if you dont like it the costs are prohibitively high and no ones really thinking that out at least in the media go ahead james. Well ive thought it out how to get to the bottom of this you know globalization crime now that were. You know surveilling americans we can go into their homes and we could look like behind their t. V. s that says made in china we could look at all of the products that theyve gotten and we could trace that back to where they got it we could go right to walmart you know talk to the law and family about this globalization i mean im joking but weve benefited tremendously its been a Great Partnership and its i mean my book is called the china mirage and theres a mirage america went into this as we always do with. You know over hundreds of years you know well just get involved with china will send our missionaries whether theyre religious or whether theyre capitalists and china is going to work with us and then theyll become more like us theyll get rid of that emperor theyll get rid of that communist party and then all chinese you know want to grow up and be a little democrats like us and then now you see in the press we tried we would put china in they didnt become more like us well. You know china is going to be china us is going to be us but we can reach across the pacific in a different way than we are now. You know rabidity it all started out with the missionaries and i still think that that missy on a mission is still there and western leaders are so disappointed that they dont they dont bend in to bend history in our direction and im often told by the chinese themselves is that its not the emergence of china its the return of china and its rightful place in the International Order and that is something washington elites just cannot comprehend go ahead brad. You know them are the Great American. Earth kind of america. That michael ware of and i think you really think that our Great America and i think thats. Emerging now from. Europe or America Public right now where abouts. Probably too much think the governments going to have a press conference right now and announce that were going to have. Some measures lifted and get back to normal life and this is the small part to air bridge that we were able to set up here talking as they sent us 150000. Rapid test kits. I think they sent all about 122000000 dollars worth of which were the major ports some of that was donated from different people some of most of it was purchased because the 100 branches might be been here brad if i could jump in here thats a trojan horse that would thats what were told in western media to dru sjodin the horse ok. Ok time we not true. But for mike they think its a trojan horse but as i said most of its a whole lot of it was in kind of string bass and if theres any kind of like. The failure thing there would be you could say Times Companies are trying to profit by raising. Those discovered capitalism that people profit off of like ok lets let thing is that you know i think he thats. A as a trojan horse for geopolitics its like really to send project force like you know the chinese are going this is europe now i dont think its interested and then separate think the chinese understood that mutual cooperation its beneficial right the americans when they help build the crizal here about the 2nd world war with marginally other stuff. They obviously had your political interests there and i think that theyre seeing what my friends record the kill is called world war see now from the fire its. Like people are saying that this is the same kind of thing is that the marshall a is a political interest and helping make sense and its actually like a qualitatively different thing to state that the countries are different societies are different the people are different totally different they are time makes a difference. There. Are after all. James that brad brings up such a good point because it really it really hurts the American Pride particularly American Pride when when you look at you know Eastern Europe you know nato countries have accepting aid programs from china because brussels we either dropped the ball in the beginning of all this or became indifferent or didnt have the resources to help wanted their e. U. Member countries or a nato country that really hurts a lot of pride in washington that 20 seconds before we go to the break go ahead james you know its a lot of pride in washington and were not looking east and theres something to learn from the east as i say my my friends in taipei are are Walking Around freely no work or is gone they didnt have to close the economy we can learn ok we can learn that not gentlemen were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on u. S. China relations facing our. Thinking of getting a new phone the ones we got in here shows no problem was he didnt know until he was trapped in this tiny little wired coach you dont need a crate with him he will just stir reaching out into the wall when its pretty much anywhere near. Breeding dogs or caged in the into lane conditions on puppy farm i mean 67 years you know theyve been locked up in a cage outside you see no protection from the weather the heat you know the courtier the rain the snow the founder nothing they have no protection. To get what you. Get through kids. Across the u. S. Cruel puppy mills are supported by dog shows on good stores most of the puppies that are coming from this large Scale Factory farming kind of operations are being sold in parts stores even joined a good businesses are involved like cargill among some to there has been a shocking amount of organized opposition to adverts to increase the standards of care for dogs bred in commercial breeding for so many most of that opposition is coming from huge agricultural groups and industries that have nothing to do with jobs dont buy dog on o. T. Style bananas is to put on a chain on the last one to cut you a little spot thats really a and chew up at you when. They build on that and desired to know. What i told of the. Local just a little earlier that i was going to them she still lives. On that show doesnt know were still up. To some will push a 3rd. And we still. Have a full report its not just on thoughts the most valuable not one of the in the book so that has to stop it thanks. For the call. Welcome back to crossfire where all Things Considered im peter about remind you were discussing u. S. China relations. Ok let me go back to james in new zealand again its go back now we started out the program. Washington threatening china with consequences what does that really mean because after 40 years of coupling as they like to use the term interdependency and lead to states that the vast majority of americans like inexpensive goods that are in produce or are being produced in china because china is patrick in the world that its not being made in the United States are right and that is an achievement of globalization i would agree hundreds of millions of people have been pulled out of poverty thats a good thats a plus as well however when we get to this pandemic and things go wrong you have to blame someone so is this process of decoupling going to be can become a reality and do you really think you really think business elites in the United States are going to go along with it sure theyll wave the flag and theyll point fingers and all that but theyre not going to pull their factories out ok theyre going to continue and that the bluster thats coming from members of the Political Class they want some kind of revenge for their own failings so i mean i cant conceivably see the kind of decoupling that the rhetoric is reflecting at this moment go. James. Well lets talk about that revenge with the Political Class about 6 years ago a u. S. Representative told me on the site you know if we thought we could be china i think the whole house of representatives would vote for war with china the good news is Donald Trumps a businessman and he has to reopen it the economy and im told that within the white house theres the vision you know Peter Navarro would like to buy on china any day of the week but trump has to reopen an economy and china is the number 2 economy and thats it so were going to be making up with china through donald trump but the noise is this american spent about 50 percent of their taxes on the military and a big chunk of that goes to the u. S. Navy and the u. S. Navy needs an enemy in the enemys china and not only is the enemy china its a high tech enemy you know vietnam was a Profit Center for a lot of companies and china this is satellites this is missiles taking off from nevada going all the way to the Marshall Islands this is quantum in korea and open nala with with high tech raytheon lockheed equipment so preparing for war against china preparing for war against china is extremely profitable. You know it brad and that james brings up the great paradox here because its much is the Political Class and particularly members of the on the media want to bash china china is absolutely necessary to the United States in so many different ways 1st of all in trade in and cheap in the making in ever better quality goods i would even say but the pentagon debt desperately needs china as an enemy because and then it doesnt have a reason really to exist outside of that ok and its very interesting that it was in that in the early part of 2017 that the the defense posture of the pentagon they shifted from the war on terror to a more traditional great power struggle and china and russia were put into that category so again russia saves the day for the pentagon ok and china is also blamed the role when you eat you cant square the circle then i mean because then either you know there are an enemy and you dont trade with them or youre an enemy and you do trade with them what did happen how are you going to explain that you cant you can explain the unexplainable there go ahead. Yeah i mean i think. About the whole business of Political Class like that 2016 election that took trump to our it shows that there is a clear like divide between the american Political Class which i would say that political and Business Class are basically the same United States but you have you have one its that attached to classical neo liberalism in that you have one thats like the new trump people they see america 1st kind of protectionist policy and when obama did his pivot towards asia i think this was. As professor albert mcquade said it was actually kind of geo politically genius to box in china and when shrum got rid of this and started. Feuds with every nation in the Asia Pacific RegionAustralia Japan and korea this is like a very serious threat and it gave china so much more credibility its allowed them to flourish even more and of course it gets in line with his objective of america 1st because i think the United States realizes that their time at the top is done and they have to decide whether theyre going to thrash around and try to maintain that in a neoliberal sense or theyre going to. You know go the traditional traditional protectionist route the train would like to go yet at the same time i think he doesnt actually understand how this is how to do that because he said hes doing a classical great power thing so i linger around and i think were seeing the United States is no pun intended gasping for breath right now and then jim political sense yeah i think thats a good point you mean james because i think when so fundamentally missed in the media is that this is a civilizational challenge ok something we havent seen the west doesnt seem for 500 years and the real problem is its not its not trade at all its actually not even. A military confrontation at the very core of this is recognizing that the United States. As a leader of the west has an International Peer and and coming to it when we come to that realization its a wake up call it something that my generation your generation never thought was possible and now it is it has come to us and it is very obvious and and the washington consensus cant conceive of a peer but actually you can take. This is a virtuous situation because when you have a peer then you can start creating the terms of engagement where we want to avoid conflict we need to see each other as an equal peer and that would be a process in which you can read that down tensions now once you know washington isnt there yet and i think there are people in washington really actually know that but its politically very difficult to say and thats going to be squaring the circle for them because china is not going to go away as many back when he can make the claims china will come out stronger after all of this go ahead james. A lot of the. Viewers to read Michael Klare last name k. L. A. Are easy war with china were already there. Yeah weve decided that china cannot be a peer that us has to be number one the problem is chinas leapfrogging ahead with all the futuristic technologies while weve been debating impeachment and doing other important things so were falling behind and then we have a military establishment with tremendous amounts of money and technology i was out in micronesia a couple months ago there were barely imagine a line from hawaii to the philippines those sound like words get out a globe and look what that means hawaii to the philippines were talking billions and billions of dollars im in my good knees and for the 1st time in history the 5 president s of these micronesia nations are in the oval office with an american president meeting with donald trump why for the 1st time in history because were going to spend billions and billions of dollars to james on food and in a pension of a nick what viewers understand that because the mention online did nothing to protect france in june of 1940 when it was invaded so i can use that and intentional. Reference because the National Line was essential and illusion it didnt say france is this its a measure is this a new form of that same national lang. Measure a line costs a lot of money yeah you could look at that and it down there are a tragedy or you can look at it as a Profit Center the i stayed in one of the best hotels and they put me up there to shoot a documentary and nobody could afford this wonderful private dining room wood paneled wine and everything until the u. S. Navy came and you know at a party which shrimp i mean were talking about liberals of money preparing in every different way satellites and ships and missiles you know this is high tech preparing for war against china im not saying were going to war but theres a lot of money involved here. You know randi how do you see the u. S. China and china relations moving forward at least over the next year because the pain in the wake of this pandemic within the United States could be horrific i mean of depression the magnitudes of particularly in unemployment when nobody really has any idea at this point the consequences of this were talking about the stresses that people have when it comes you know losing your job mortgages student loan payments i mean its a cascade effect meaning its happening now the pain demick will long be gone and well still be dealing with the economic woes that of that that we saw with this interruption of the economy that is going to be cannon fodder for her anxiety and to blame someone in obviously the media and members of the Political Class want to point to china how do you see this happening over the next year or so. I think its really hard to know honestly i mean this is this is this administration i think its its always really pointless to to look at youre going to your political opponents or people that you disagree with and say that is crazy because you know this is a way to get legitimate did legitimize a lot of the policies that people put forward the United States always does this but i think we really are seeing like a historically. Serious case of history here the trouble ministration is totally out there and they have no idea where theyre going trumps is changing every day the people around him there are changing to every day and this is what i saw last night and you guys watched the Trump Press Conference yesterday but it also made me think it was absolutely bizarre the way he had this i dislike randomly put together clips of the media and by the way i want to say its not even just china that he is attacking i think the other day he attacked half a dozen Media Outlets in a one day on twitter fox is you know he was he was betting fox news his in his. Little allies is best in the Democratic Party everybody everybodys getting some of this but this is only going to china you know the sad part about this is that this is actually a popular issue now is that even democrats this is like 80 percent issue is now controlled the conversation very well trampas and now 80 percent of americans Something Like that really actually believe the china that as part of this issue what i would call them is that hes in Campaign Mode and hes not really dealing with a visit with peter because my great grandmother was out of time i hear him on janes going to give you 20 seconds of being a show of go ahead james 20 seconds brad said even democrats i mean baracoa brother kicked off the war with china down in the australian front of the parliament with the pivot to asia it isnt even democrats china is the enemy with a lot of the day we can all get behind that for 4 years this is an old current in American History and we need to put an end to it already gentlemen thats all the time we have here i want to thank my guests in prague and in new zealand and i want and i can thank our viewers for watching us here at r. 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