Worlds most famous publisher Julian Assange and also more coming up in todays going on the ground but lets go straight to one of the greatest living political activists and writers who has inspired antiwar figures were malcolm x. To John Lennon Tariq Ali joins us from his north london home via skype jack thanks so much for coming on the program i have to declare an interest because you brought me to channel 4 in the 1980 s. And you were my boss but what would you say now to the millions who have been inspired by your work the fight for freedom and justice that youve undertaken in your life what would you say to them who are now profoundly pessimistic about the neoliberal response to a pandemic let alone gross inequality around the world well basically. We find. Difficult to come out on the street because the nature of this but i make but i think what you have been to make actually teaches is that the system under which we live. Is a proof found relief a lot and it does not alter the. Future that is worth living to put it at him. I mean the notion of let it well is the only do not enter to prove the. Right and then still this day and wealthy people will get their way you know by saving their lives i dont write to them that what what about the restaurants the work so i take the newton broke up into a system which is being in full snout affectively since the eightys and charge since the ninetys of the last century needs to be dismantled all the countries that are seriously attempting to come to grips with this epidemic i mean macro in france was courier who was an action is based on making france and to be near liberal state has now been full struve us all that and offering to pay the utility bills council tax you know people not so well off except princess shows that deep down on this entire end they owe through a major government in the western world are aware that the system which theyre being defended and supporting doesnt work for a majority of the people thats the lesson to be drawn after the virus has been tackled there and should if i may just say one of the countries that are shown no panic because it is bad for these claims is the tiny island of cuba where cruise ships which are not allowed to land anywhere on joke anywhere jocking even cuba being greeted by the population of solar and are being treated by the doctors and the cubans are so. Free medicines all over africa now that is the model whereas in the west this didnt come to sight mover to maintain sanctions against iran or venezuela which is still to be incomplete be discussed stick though this is still going on when those in the higher world is facing this crisis in fairness to morris johnsons Foreign Office and the stand of the British Government have thanked the cuban government for taking the ship the braemar into port but certainly no condemnation from here about the u. S. Sanctions on the island i want to get on to some of those other issues a bit later and todays anniversary of the iraq war but youre also a novelist and putting your novelist hat on how do you characterize near liberal culture and art given the fact that most peoples cultural imagination of a pandemic is really from hollywood and from films that what we have to go on well i mean you know its lost both of the culture today obviously is dominated by a form of neo liberalism which ill courage is individualists some of the most group has sort of you know theres a worship of 1st celebrities that someone extremely well known on television or a very strong. Actor is almost greeted as a dog and this is really deep deep you know much much worse over the last 30 to 40 years so this. Proves various people almost not completely from thinking collectively and actually its not tell by the technology i think that the old internet revolution mistaken placing characters individual ism of course it meat i mean the number. People you run into on the buses all the tubes or on pavement so even on their bikes they see you know from the noises of the real world if i can put it like that their eyes sealed off from what is going on around them because theyre concentrating on those that are on the singles grange now it neednt be like this but that is what its become and i think in it selma strange frightening a very way what we are witnessing now is people beginning to think again beyond themselves holy wall is you know produce the old film like contagion what does that do it just creates korea i mean the pain is. Lost to create fear but to create hope not to create better 70 but to encourage people to be to be active and they is now at the station response to this crisis i mean someone wrote from send up all saying that here in south korea and in japan the the detainees testing testing the entire population regularly and not banning contact with each other except physical contact so there are many many different ways of looking at it from the fact that the chinese themselves. Bought it was not was in the new base to be recorded anywhere in the country shows that actually in the interests of who are great people and have been a factor i mean why what about the United States where you dont even have 3 elephants deeply shocking the richest most powerful country in the world treat its population because of capitalist dharma and the one candidate and being for. Nash. I dont have service in the United States is most likely to be defeated but a sleepy job itan so its a very weird big ship but i think there are lessons to be no i think many people will learn im saying that if this is what you have to do in emergencies why cant you change the way in we treat live well hollywood at least though is how a lot of people describe what happened 17 years ago today when the world woke up to the pictures of the u. S. And u. K. Bombing of baghdad why is it still relevant what happened in 2003 why is it still relevant to all our lives right now because its still going on thats the 1st reason that it was 17 years ago it was iraq. And the. Comments that are being inflicted on this country the brutality the cruelty the u. S. Do not to by our doing Everything Possible to find shias from sudanese one day playing with the shia giving them. Which makes your arm the central are in the region and then suddenly blaming other forces for it no good it they did it now theyre touting iran and theyre. Basically using the saudis to control the sunni population. And most important of all just trying the social infrastructure of that country that is will hit disaster doubtless im as my friend near me climbed calls it that its all day here in iraq they just strolling to an entire country and if you think about it today well the entire world is thinking about grownup virus i have absolutely no doubt and i can say this with confidence that the. Health service created by the iraqi series of iraqi governments was one of the best in the middle east in order to be much better able to cope with this wasnt the moment in iraq a wall to trigger off another wall in the region. Syrian. War there from created massive movements of populations in refugees that this war is still going on even as all of europe keep them and is appealing to the United States to with rule all its troops from the region that is being ignored you talk to many iraqis to do of all political persuasions and they will say it openly we are much better off under us and that is what they say can i just say can i get a dowry if anyone thinks youre an apologist for Saddam Hussein you made me work on a program in the eightys about thatchers support for Saddam Hussein what is it like actually personally given that you came under pressure for that channel of our program because he was an ally of britain and then over the if its which is a matter for folks we would join for cham for if you remember or serve the architecture of fear and we were it was an ultra Political Program showing those who built these giant danticat monumental statues of a model from so that oh no i dont like this and dominated. Especially in the military areas the parade grounds and we were doing a critical piece of this and we came under a lot of pressure not to do it i remember i should when you or someone else researching that program rack up that company in basingstoke in an area in the middle of. Which. Did the baddies big arms mate created them and then shipped the monster but that they said why aint going to sets of credibly. So many of us who are true critic of. When he was actually involved. What then attacked for opposing a iraq war you live in a strange world priorities are decided by your rules and decided depending on whom the United States a settled on as the enemy of the month and disses become an enemy of the poor need to get its i mean if you think about the iraq war that american soldiers are still that libya has been destroyed that syria is trying to recover from an horrific civil war then afghanistan is still occupied all of these roles of lasted longer than the 1st and 2nd world wars book to get and they carry on and what it angers will be is that citizens in most of the western world a Europe North America sleep or kerry day basically ignore a lot their governments and countries have been doing to the middle east which isnt as state of. Recreate destruction on many many levels politically socially economically culturally when the palestinians left with absolutely nothing and the 2 basically supported by the United States israel. And egypt receiving huge subsidies to this day for acquiescing in one has been happening. Us in santa must remember all souls of. Monsters are remote from the after this School People say attack isis thats the ones group who predicted it oh they did ok wasnt present in iraq under saddam was said it went in with the american troops and troops of other countries supporting them so its not difficult to do to draw a direct link between the bombing of both berg all those years ago and the state of the middle east a bit britain of the United States of course to this day completely did i creating isis day ash tag ill stop you there more from jerry gulley after this short break. In this community there are people who believe that its ok to stop or accept food on my table its really hard there are no jobs and you see that black kids are asking and as a parent. I can come up with a lot of arguments theres a lot of conflict in the game between the cost of a complex i would say overall is around money and most of their money is made. Close one on each other does he know each other is good because the state of california alone makes 6000000000. 00 a year of the prison complexes you get so why do you live where. You dont care anymore nobody cares about you so you dont care about anything. Welcome back im still here with tariq ali you were speaking at rallies the Largest Global demonstration in history with against the iraq war alas does it not show that protest marches do not stop wars like the one that happened 17 years ago today and what difference was iraq to vietnam because obviously mick jagger and the Rolling Stone sang about your opposition to the vietnam war how is it different i think the main difference is in what happened to the world in the ninetys in my opinion the fact that the soviet union collapsed that china and the way it did created a huge wave of demoralized nation which even amongst people who basically didnt support these governments but saw them as creating a space between 2 power blocs and in that space we can all function and live and be critical of one euro side and we want to do. That counterbalance disappeared the United States book game d n a moment power in global scale and people follow them and alternatives that the iraq iraq war demonstration in my opinion was the 1st sign that people were searching for Something Else 1st day by saying dont make war on iraq and these demonstrations were huge in your book if we look back on it over a 1000000 people in london 2000000 people in madrid nearly 3000000 in rome over 200002 new york hundreds of thousands all over and the phony ship cargo every American City and probably. Sure look at the state capital was infected and effected by a desire to stop the war they were ignored and one reason they were ignored is that they had no following and little support in parliament when you have the republicans and the democrats waging war. And supporting it when you have totally black then Prime Minister in britain the conservative opposition supporting the war then you know you can have 2 to 3000000 people and you know that thats a reality of it and been never came out again and those numbers i remember saying at the big demonstration and. Were all trying to fight against the war dont imagine it wont take place or words to that effect and really more obscure with this start bombing where we didnt we couldnt there also hand but effectively they got away with it but it will be wrong to draw from this the conclusion their protest is useless it may not always be effective but creating a different Public Opinion is extremely important i am not now and nothings being us and these really occupation has been sanctified by a crime back and terror de facto by the European Union days no chance of the palestinians getting any form of state even the most not only. At the present time nothing happens the world is garcia is that total ghetto completely wrecked by disease the Palestinian Authority has got so used to collaboration with these really that they basically dont know what to do when they oppose whats playing now they participated in creating this situation where the british well it was not a marketplace thats what i say but that doesnt mean we stop arguing your baiting mobilising i mean life would be awful if one just became well the british the labor party his ministers obviously committed us to war in iraq 17 years ago obviously. Protecting israel arguably after the after the Jeremy Corbyn years why do you think that this same labor party as it were is so keen to reinvite people who are associated with the iraq war back even to the party including i mean care started a leading figure once tony blairs head of war propaganda Alistair Campbell back in the labor party is this Opposition Party does it understand what youve been saying there well i think there are 2 things one has to see about the labor party while is the insurrection on little girl insurrection of the Young Country and we call bill interim our hour as fracture. In my opinion and momentum became exclusively current machine if not exclusively 80 percent of it through our low there mick in addition to that also doing a lot of political campaigning political education etc so theyre actually the strength of traditional live gruesome which is that the only thing we do which is when the election is now back in falls the left was given a chance the left was defeated not even going to ask him. Searching for why the left was defeated refusing to accept then it was because labor joined him all the parliamentary moorings to prevent a referendum from being implemented to peer starmer let me just say obviously associated according to the un with the persecution of julian a sudden change from whom and because of whom we know so much more about iraq than we have a did back then how frightened are you for Julian Assange can i just as the founder of wiki leaks given hes in belmarsh prison and governors of prisons in this country obviously are worried about the spread of coronavirus im extremely worried about truly moon for many many. I mean initially it seemed that they were imposing a regime not regina on him in that prison which could have led to a no the defense that his order number of doctors said and then the governor of the prison. Brutish rager who none of the judges wanted to try to change because its not needle thats the governors domain which is not so that if a wrestler appearing before them is not in effect state to give evidence they have every right to challenge. The governor of the prince who julian is deliberately being mistreated the case is completely manufactured new smells so the u. N. Report on torture has made a very powerful intervention saying that the what took place in sweden when he was accused of rape something you always deny was offending crap and processed and designed to discredit him and lose or we close relatively successful i think many people seem to prove that but the fact is that this accusation against judea on Security Matters is completely bizarre and everyone else it is the americans know its the only when they can get him back into the states the british and know that this is a political decision it has nothing to do with the law and im going along with it and i hope that some sense prevails when the case goes to the Supreme Court and this concrete because it is quite shocking what has happened to julian i hope years said were to go to mess a many many years ago has learned a few lessons. From that and i think this is something wait show even Boris Johnson who is being the most of his life we journalists should understand if you agree to. What the americans are asking you to do i mean today in for a dream as jews exposed war crimes tomorrow it could affect other journalists who spose other things which the United States didnt want to expose and the americans all already have said washington is dead any foreign journalists the Us Constitution doesnt apply to them so they can pick anyone up and take their him all over to washington to be christ since most governments do their bidding any certainly the torture has been written about people who watch our interviews with meals well to the un special rapporteur on torture better if one can forgive a media in a Coronavirus Crisis for not covering the sun is not covering the the continued bombing of iraq backed by britain of by the United States and in the past few days. There is a just nation being passed through parliament and if its not martial law its military immunity legislation what do you think about why both ransom is keen on pursing immunity for british soldiers is it somehow emblematic of british intervention 3 mile island to iraq absolutely. They want to stay out late a situation where british soldiers are immune from. Prosecution i mean this is something weve fought against in many countries where the military is also limb part of the military shouldnt out these. Its a big court against in the United States where many antiwar activists want to u. S. Officers involved in massacres from be it maam on whats charged to cry. It is still done to those who the west regards it as its enemies the International CriminalCourt Functions just as a court goes who are guarded as enemy. West so its i dont own a social of what is going on well just finally in the when it comes to colonial legacies kashmir is of course there colonial legacy and the sudan the government has again put it under total lockdown we had the high commissioner on this show said it was being freed up a little of course it is the center of a Nuclear PossibleNuclear Conflict just tell me what you think about our coronavirus for instance can be used as an excuse to do all sorts of things by different governments but especially what on earth is happening in kashmir sheer is. The highest incidence of grunow iris afflictions anywhere in india. And the recent focus is that large numbers of missionaries are in prison many are in concentration camps not being given medical aid. From some of the reports out of court from friends being left to die and the world still is because the world today this work likes move around magdy and the ship. Because they are of their own global strategic planning. On on many issues so the schmear is being ignored the lock down unconditionally took place many months ago when india abandoned its own constitution and effectively said gosh may respond to being degraded and the rest of india very few protests made of you protest but they were pretty due to a very few are countries backed. Me recourse so the question remains like that to me and some today very isolated and you know one feels for them. And the other thing on this i have to. It is that im very glad theres an opposition in the air resistance on the new citizenship more to use implement it and this is quite deep in many provinces but all of the speech will define most lows and the citizenship law and crew may not rule that means most to close have remained silent on the question me and the reason they remain silent is because kashmir is regarded as a security issue that goes on terrorism and for creation which do please many years ago and stopped many years ago to by and large the events speak up on that so shereen are as far as bush meter is concerned terrible silence as both a d. T. P. I mean we can speak a little bit d. I mean i tried didnt live in a place very noticeable how little solidarity there has pete with the street we obviously invite the high commissioner for india back on and the israeli ambassador another thai got a thank you that said going to your favorite episode of the most recent season of going underground will continue to show your favorite episode of the web back on wednesday the 22nd of april until then try to keep safe and make sure to join the underground by following of the you tube Twitter Facebook instagram example out. The outbreak in spread of the corona virus has become a black swan event for the Global Economy is no longer whether the u. S. And other economies will slip into recession the question now is how deep and how long the recession will last its going to get worse before it gets better. For him wrong. But all roles just dont hold. Any. The old to say power is the old. One so. Just to look for Common Ground and