Border so i mean everything in Northern Ireland is affected in some way by this division so youre talking about how to sort the police can you get the politicians to Work Together can you then get schools to start to educate people in a different way how do people at local level actually stop just walking past each other but start to run things together and a lot of our work was really just almost stepping out on to that ice trying to find the practical ways forward on an interface you know in the trade unions in the workplace in schools and it was in many ways an experiment how do you do it i mean and we found quite a lot of different answers for that in different ways you see we who you speak of well i think theres a kind of Different Levels of we i was in the Community Relations council and i was a very much involved in trying to support and develop those kind of initiative so we were actually looking for them but we were doing that i suppose on behalf of the whole community and really when you look at the number of actors if you current what politicians have had to contemplate working with people who they associated with well not too fine a point not murder campaigns. Systems which they profoundly phoned and just they had to Work Together the police had to find a way to engage with communities who previously didnt want to know them you had schools trying to bring people together where parents were looking at them saying what are you doing you had interfaces river throwing stones then how do you cut that down to the way he was actually very broad this is been 20 years all. Of trying to find the cracks they think and leave us the space to have that dialogue i mean and all your cell bill your father will very influential in the phone dish and of the column you look community but the must be in the modern one mile of the must be space is taking place in the political arena with politics between communities online but how do you find the space where people can have that dialogue. I actually think youre talking about the actual definition of what we mean by the Peace Process which is when things are really hot i have to say the space is the calm narrower and narrower and narrower there are only the small spaces i think that was the experience incarnate it was hard to keep it alive in the middle of what is effectively a war is too strong but nevertheless a mass of conflict where people are or into themselves towards that i think the Peace Process has all been about answering that question other words shouldnt be anywhere where we cant have a conversation so politics was a really key arena and still remains actually one of the more complex arenas because it keeps breaking down under the stress is that you have institutions which are really important cause there carry on the law and peoples sense of justice so how do people coalesce around issues of what good policing looks like or thats been the thing and they use that quite often because theyve got the big one another one is schools you know we have a whole lot of institutions which are either places where people learn to be adults in one way or another way so how do you use those there are Community Organizations but also workplaces need to learn to treat People Fairly and straight and if thats not happening and people feel intimidated in the workplace so i when you talk about space what i would say is there are opportunities everywhere the question is whats actually available now and keeping that opportunistic kind of approach to these things but also i understand its comprehensive in the end statement is that no. Realistic to think of to try. And the National Straight with a union strike is that in a totally dramatic oversimplification or does it still have the kernel of truth. I think you have to be careful to before you walk away too quickly and there is no doubt that things have shifted a bit particularly for some marriage say for under fortys whove had an experience over the last 20 years of a more open Plural Society longer simple they travel they are interested in social change the issues like gay marriage or abortion have taken their enthusiasm more than the constitutional issue and they actually resist being pigeonholed back into this but if you ask a question like. You know where does the border go then people started to take a view again and one of the questions we dont know is well take a slightly different view because its asked by blacks than they did before as there are new constellations emerging were in the process now and thats the question were asking the duncan im going to go a little to imagination lets see i was so close to unionist. And i was looking at the prospect of a board in the irish sea beaten. By those jobs as i would see it and i be you fearful of the future. Is that the rule of of peacemakers conciliatory dialogue needless to reassure meat or is that something really ive got to do myself the process of politics i think the job that i would have in that context is where do i get or provide the context were on see if conversations can actually happen without there being disasters and i think sometimes people think you know trying to make peace is about avoiding the issues its not all actually unfunny strange way its about going head on into them but then trying to create the context of them which i can actually face it and begin to address it with the real people i have to address it with so the question you ask where does the unionist go no i think i was at a meeting last night where somebody remarked the difficulty is unionism doesnt want to have this conversation because theyre frightened that if they start the conversation theyll make it real where we go or 3 nights are and so on and there is a complex there and out but i think it may be possible to design things where its not unionism but unionists begin to explore the ice at least even to find out what it is they can and cant accept and begin to put conversations in a more complex way but politics in the end will have to deal with this because politics in the end will also shape the situation were in because of Boris Johnsons decisions we are in one situation if it had been different 3 months ago we were in a different situation we have to keep changing the context but we have to keep talking about well where do you have a safe place for the real conversations not for the avoidance of the real thing and sailors are probably a much easier much less of a leap of the imagination and i wish nationalist politicians apparently winning the border issue in the sense that the border seems to be in the sea or going to be from brits but perhaps frightened that the loss of the you. European although really puts at risk some of the the gun tease from the the good friday agreement so how do i get reassured that the same process for me is never exactly the same no its not its a different process because the fears arent the same even though theyre interconnected i would say for hours nationalism as it contemplates in real terms what a new ireland very United Ireland or look like actually at the moment is a big up there because a lot of it has been rhetoric a lot of us have been talk its been based on a loss that happened a 100 years ago rather than a plan for whats actually real in the european context no and i think for example some of the issues that are arising are people in the north who have lived through 40 years of conflict and 60 years before that a feeling that they were separated dont have the same experience or the same understanding of this as people who lived outside that and the irish conversation has to begin in a different way so everybody has chairs shifting here and there are bits going to have to rear or interior conversations and it is it possible for politicians of both communities to be fearful. So its not one is obviously losing what is obviously winning that both can actually be looking at the worst side of us and hopefully be if thats possible is it possible to be commuters look at the best of well i think youre actually describing merely what were seeing at this moment which is i think you could track alienation from british politics as it is currently experienced. But hasnt yet crystallized into huge demand for a United Ireland so both sides are uncertain about where this goes or and nobody really is certain and at the other side i think politicians are nervous to give too much chip to this so a lot of this and you asked where the spaces in what the language of now is deliberative conversations several conversations places where people began to explore this without prejudice to the political outcome because they need to narrow the ground on to what the real issues are and actually explore before politicians take a view but time may not be honest i mean things are happening these decisions about the border will happen within a year that. Whatever happens we will be in a changed circumstance and 12 months time and again we have to calibrate that so i want to give you 2 simple answer is that he has a massive opportunity academics have a massive opportunity media has a massive opportunity to begin to explore these things politicians will need to prepare themselves but well have to keep calibrating it to reality and one last question in this when you speak to said group of. Not just young people but people under the age of 30 youngish lets call them. You know what are you talking there are many other priorities that society should be looking up to the divides and is that because the they have lived through the troubles or is it because just society is opening up and changing or so many ways of people nor moment of having the same influences as elsewhere. I think again its complicated answers but there are some young people who are still stuck i suppose if thats the right word but still caught in the old stuff and some of there is you would meet that but many young people as you say Climate Change is the issue or the issue is what do we do oppose. Relationships when. And or even is being discussed all of these conversations are life there may be at some level kind of resentment for some of the young people this conversation is coming back at the good friday agreement was meant in some ways to put the old stuff to bed to allow that to flourish brax that is something which hasnt really been driven from Northern Ireland its been driven from its site so there are young people i think are trying to adjust themselves to the fact that a conversation on the table that isnt there a conversation about maybe also theyll bring something new to their brain a solution which says were not looking for that all types of looking to use this is an opportunity to reconfigure what we do and they may have a decisive influence. Im going to fulfill the repeated promises apologise to the people and come out to be you know weve all pots to. Be. Pretty. Pretty there bertha now you want to 1st. Know. I can link up my. Seemed wrong. Why dont yall just dont call. Me lol just to see how it just did come out to. And engage me equals betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. Welcome back im speaking to professor duncan little normile and foremost academic on the subject of reconciliation between communities. In your role as a reconciled lets lets lets call you. A needler. Do you sometimes when youre seeing the political debate in the north of ireland. Lets not do a names of politicians but do you you see it supporters are saying something or doing something or making a list of you say a ha you know this thats right on the mark regardless of which passed the or which community is do you do you see sometimes that the sparkle something that you have been waiting to to hear or is the political dialogue still trapped and old slogans i think everybody would say we have seen some really quite remarkable things here you know even those very early images of evolution are all kind of americans against the backdrop here these are people saying look i hope brothers not just Martin Mcguinness brothers. In paisley together i mean who could ever have predicted that from where we were 20 years before that nobody. When. A young constable was killed in. By a distant group. In about 10 years ago Peter Robinson went to the service and the g. A. A. Carried the coffin of the young policeman those were both symbols to me of how that could happen before ga were where the people here are they are rich Cultural Association who are Long Associated with irish nasserism very critical of the police but because one of their members was a new policeman they carried the coffin the 1st minister who by his religious convictions normally wouldnt go into a Catholic Church went to the funeral may seem like small things but symbolically they were very important for a northerner and i dont think we can quite go back from there the going to do something that mainly people would see when they visited the law and in the past they would come back with a hugely positive impression of the friend of us that gave us nature the open heartedness of the people and we see if you will how a man from. What i experience be reconciled with the violence that were seeing in these days on the television screens. Its a lesson that any society regardless of how friendly and open hearted can descend into into the pit of the abyss oh certainly it is and in some ways you know it the humor is driven by the fact that thats how you cope you know you have to turn it into a joke or the warmth is in some ways because people know that mothers in the context of a conflict i dont know think of myself as a reconciler in the sense of any of it is think that i think about my interest is where do we get this base is where those 2 things come together where we can use people human recognition of each other but actually in this space are prepared to begin to look at what the problems actually are their emotional relationship to them what changes might be possible and thats the trick. Question for us one of the 2 societies probably could be close a little on god self scotland and Northern Ireland blunder for blood borne of a board in the hopes. Skull of the serious sectarian problem you provided an invaluable help to the station i led but the success of scottish scottish governments but scottish side to despite see this clearly a difficulty doubled to say the in to the sort of violence that we saw in Northern Ireland im interested to get any insight into why scotland pulled back from that period and bring well have more on. The senate into the troubles any particular clues in the us with a couple of things i mean obviously sectarianism never defined scotlands political discussion in the same way i mean here the issue of sectarianism can never be fabricated from issues of where does the border go and masters of control over paths i dont scotland i think terrorism was a significant issue in communities it certainly shape peoples experience of immigration at the their economy at times was affected by it you have institutions which reflect some of that story and some places of course you do. The reality is that once the violence starts. You have more groans for resentment then she ever had and in scotland thankfully it never in general parts or the instant escalated up to that point which was that people hadnt actually experience that they were under threat in their house or under threat when they were in the street or they wore the wrong color it was an exceptional instant when that happened here im afraid its got a pattern and it has organization and it has a symbol and a political cause on all sides and that means that its quite hard to switch off because you can go down the street very quickly and meet people who say sectarianism isnt a theory for me thats what happened to me that its what happened to my family its what the reason i cant do this or that and i think in scotland luckily it never quite took that the kind of cancerous form of the disease it is its still a disease but it hasnt actually quite eaten into the structure and same with if we take a quick. History would have been periods a lot of this history of the 1797 for example early elated irishman related presbyterians in the north of viable catholics in the in the sofa violet was so west of us. And then the National Question was the oppose wasnt seen as a religious divide the top some of the great figures of irish muscles have been protestants Charles Tripple well for example is a protestant what how did the religion become the defining feature of the of the political course where youre absolutely right of course its a complicated matter there are different phases and forms of this religion and politics mix in different ways now and clear the irish politics which is separate from the other places too because every orangeman would also agree that they are involved in a certain form of irish politics. Nevertheless you know the long history of britain was a state which was defending a kind of a protestant settlement against catholic powers for a long time that created serious local problems and serious issues in ireland and that has lasted and modernized in the 19th century so that unionism and nationalism became especially you became a defense of a certain kind of idea of liberty and freedom and i think that once violence as i said you get into that story people arent then discussing ideas any more theyre defending themselves against their enemies and once that happens its not just a question of do i agree with you its kind of 11th you and once its kind of the view we have then got a lot of work to get through because its you know i may even be able to say i can see the value of a United Ireland that the one possible idea. I dont trust you running thats why im against it or the other way around i dont find the United Kingdom that im comfortable but you know something what you did to my family makes it impossible for me to record thousands we have both. Story of different ideas competing but we also have people who are trying to work through what was there for them. Easily picked up in a time of fragility or fear and that always has been our history you mentioned a couple of memorable moments of reconciliation the death of the young policeman and who. Feel the revolution paisley amassed mcgillis together was 1st minister deputy 1st minister of oil and so were you a very close you could look to in the future really gathering for you look at the not the work is finished but i can see the the sunlight through the clothes. If youre talking a kind of Big Television event of course you know there removal of the walls in belfast would be. A dramatic moment we still have peace walls between communities here which are still there because the population still feel that if the can down the risk so the removal of those not because some group has left but because they actually want to work through its obviously always dramatic moment i think as the immigration debate is going on were one of the places where immigration might actually be a very good thing for us because it would take us out of the local kind of obsession and give us an opportunity to put our history into context that were part of a wider globe and so sometimes actually the people who have brought the biggest change have been unexpected people people whove come here from and since the Peace Process one of the biggest changes was their arrival of people rather than the departure of people from Northern Ireland and that would be a great symbol you know if you look at the changes that happened in ireland south of the border in the last 30 years i mean ireland has almost reimagined itself as a country where people might not just leave and sings that song as it were the departure but actually be a place where people will want to come or return to that theyve come away from and then change the way in which it operates and i suppose if we could participate and im not particularly hung up on where the constitutional border lies but i would say to you if we in the north could begin to participate in that kind of experience that we have rejoined there were other there just obsessed by our piece was that would be a big change and of course public could no longer be described as a theocratic state clearly sensible the sensible ups the the irish state has been transformed substantially the British State recently i think are and has gone through huge changes and the changes are to do with. Economic success but theyre also to do with a feeling that under this for europe so important for them within europe i think for our land it was no longer an obsessional relationship with. History and with england it became a baker story and they were able to kind of talk differently and i think one of the consequence of that was lots of people came back most of new people arrived the political conversation began to change and so the theocratic issue has begun to to change so in the last 2 years arland has not just changed the law on emotive moral issues like abortion or gay marriage it has done so by the. That wasnt done by an elite deciding this was time to happen that was done by popular vote and thats actually i think almost unique across the globe so it does show that change is possible and that under certain circumstances things begin to move and things which were thought of as impossible or very unlikely. Even 20 years ago have no happened and finally the 1st model is the european issue. Still got somewhere to run in terms of its impact on the north of ireland not post much snow and we have the the Customs Border is going to be looking like its going to be another sea thank you more of the you to be an issue in terms of affecting the mind of the of the people is that some impact still to be felt i think the european issue will probably for project. You will know as well as i do that the consequences for the constitution of the u. K. Are absolutely unsettled so if things happen in scotland theyre not sure that that will be unnoticed here in fact im absolutely sure it will have massive consequences the way in which we relate to the rest there were may be defined by where the border goes and how the border operates. And so i dont want to be too protective because actually im not even sure where precisely we are going but i am 100 percent sure that were still going to be wrestling with the consequences of this conversation for quite a long time as a model thank you very much i know an interest of celtic unity i want to present you were for a quick score skellig the one stipulation i would have for passing lodo your friends is only scottish another side of stuff. See if economic or of thank you very much. Professor duncan morrow is an example of a rare but important breed one of those who have worked to transcend political and Community Differences and enable the peace 30 years of troubles have been followed by 20 years of peace and that sometimes fragile but always precious state has held despite a variety of political pressures over the last 2 decades none of this has been more challenging than bricks it which has provoked uncertainty in both communities unionists because of the proposed border in the irish sea and nationalists because of the fear of losing the European Union guarantor to the good friday agreement and the next issues will listen to the views of unionist and nationalist politicians and to Community Activists and indicate both new thinking ideas cesspit taking place across both communities to find a way forward for all of the people of Northern Ireland thank you thank. You. Trade and investment to become magic spells to conjure economic development. Most people think about trade they think about goods and services being exchanged between countries and the investor chopped or a trade agreement is about something very different but what one investment leads to toxic manufacturing that destroys sacred sites all ruins the environment. That means that if local communities that are being poisoned if they object if they do anything that the company feels is interrupting their profits they can be sued. Of taking on the whole nation Philip Morris is trying to use i. S. T. s to stop tour of the wife from implementing new tobacco regulations aimed at cutting domestic smoking rates a fringe company sued egypt because egypt raise its minimum wage democratic choice of a trump. Joint says we try to find one r. T. New hospital for coronavirus patients hes being built on the outskirts of moscow as russia. Respond. To a particularly sensitive subject lately toilet paper while. Any type of budget any type of. This clearly enough for everyone. In the u. S. Several states announced they postponed primaries to contain the coronavirus the Democratic National committee warning of possible penalties. On the 19 aggressively spreads across the u. K