She is guilty you mean a whistleblower releasing documents that expose war crimes by the United States thats why one issue for me shes been in jails 7 months now i believe they were refusing to start to the grand jury she already served so we use the prison for prison. Sentence you know admire her courage. But shes being punished for exposing the war crimes you know thats a crime in it so she didnt find it they should never be there are in fairness Bernie Sanders also running for the president ial nomination friend november agrees with you on that says joining us on shouldnt be extradited what exactly is the need for a 3rd green party and do you believe that what sanders calls his vision of democratic socialist. Im can never really work in a Democrat Party as currently configured we need Real Solutions and the 2 major parties are not providing them the clout of crisis the inequality crisis we have a declining life expectancies but a working class in this country because inequality each going to be people are having a hard time may have to choose between human and medical bills for example and we have a Nuclear Arms Race you know all these treaties we got all these trees next one is the new start treaty the beginning in the next president ial term so those are issues that need to be addressed the latter issue none of the Major Party Candidates are talking about him none of them are offering Real Solutions i would say Bernie Sanders is seriousness or Green New Deal which has been the green Party Signature issue for the last decade and he does address the inequality issue unfortunately to democrats and to the people he seems to be coming up short in the democratic primary but even if you got elected a independent party on the left like the green party would be his best out of us because the minute he tries to boost state medicare for all hes going to run into the democratic leadership in congress will look to people opposed to the those members of Congress Like people opposed to medicare nancy pelosi injured schumer well you know you know the. Socalled progressive the Mainstream Media will either tell you it being a russian assets like they did jill stein actually been on this show in the past for the leader of the green body and let alone that the fact is youre basically going to help donald trump retain the white house in november by splitting the vote if that were the democrats are responsible for splitting new gloat the last 2 republicans have been elected after they lost the popular vote by the Electoral College george bush in 2 down and donald trump in 2016 and weve been giving them the answer to that dead state rank Choice National popular vote. You know i would in both the fact that the Electoral College and the elections of the person came in 2nd in those 2 cases in also what is the problem of deciding to blow for the lesser evil is the greater evil when you really want to vote for somebody else Bernie Sanders hed lost the nomination in 2016 but the issues he raised like medicare for our tuition free Higher Education in real Climate Action are now part of the real debate in the Democratic Party so you dont have to win artist to move to move the debate in the us we need to do well its a great democratic exercise why the green body always do so badly that where we have a winner take all system unlike most countries that have elections there proportional representation and we have a strong tradition we have got all this party in the world whats been called the 2nd most enthusiastic capitals party in the world its the democrats in and we have the Richest Party in the world but most of those years the gap was more in the world the republicans in their entrenched greens there are 50 people elected locally around the country in on a basis where we dont have a state legislatures and congress why come out of retirement to run for the presidency especially when Bernie Sanders has up until a few days ago been the front runner to actually lead the Democrat Party the 1st time a socialist ever has where i am a recently retired teams are in and i was drafted by greens across the country when progress was going to the Democratic Party and vote for the democratic ticket you dont know where that vote is from a standard socialist or a corporate is it gives lost in the sauce example i ran for governor of new york in 2014 being a 5 percent of the book Governor Cuomo the adopted 3 key demands of my campaign because he wanted to compete for our books and it was a ban on fracking 15 our minimum wage and paid family leave so there is. Look left when the left goes into the Democratic Party it loses its independent voice and identity as an alternative just finally you mentioned cuomo the new york of course under a state of emergency because of coronavirus you do at least agree presumably with sanders that any possible corona virus vaccine should we made available free to all americans oh absolutely i mean just country has their response to group virus and rich from worse than any other country we dont have to yes were not getting respirators to people we dont have that sufficient here to sillies any 7000000 people who are uninsured or underinsured indeed only want to go to the doctor because the one constant to much trouble dissolves happy talk to stock market in a backyard its own were in a real serious situation youre now your organs thank you well is it even possible to distribute a free vaccine in a country like the us are given choked by big pharmaceutical multinationals joining me now via skype from San Francisco is computational immuno engineer and c. E. O. Of distributed bio Jacob Glanville who also features in the netflix docu series pandemic jake thanks for coming on to what is the latest on the search for the vaccine reports here are saying that the British Government favors a herd immunity response to let the virus run through the population a little would you think of a yeah so the reason theyre saying that is that there is currently no effective medicine and so theyre just preparing for the inevitable that large numbers of people will get infected. If you can slow down the rate of new infections thats better than having them had all at once because if they had all at once then you overrun your hospital i. C. Use and you know a problem people dying in the waiting rooms. With respect to where the medicines are there maybe some good news in april where we have a series of antivirals that didnt work well against people up but they may work well here and there some h. I. B. Antivirals and an anti malarial so any success on any one of those fronts gives us a work in medicine that vaccine work is going to take much longer thats going to be 12 realistically more like. 18 months before theres a back Seat Available its got some hurdles weve had previous cases of vaccines against print a virus is that it backfired in animals and made the animals more susceptible through something called not a body dependent enhancement and in general those studies just take a long time because when you give someone a vaccine you have to give them a couple of those and you have to wait 6 or more weeks for them to have good protective immunity that means you cant give it to patients because by the time the vaccine would do any good theyd either be cured or debt now the 3rd category are monoclonal therapeutics and thats what i am engineering here distributed bio thats sort of skipping the middleman of the vaccine in producing the anybody directly so you can give that to a patient and it can be effective within 20 minutes thats what were working on in there some other groups also doing the same that would still be out into or at the earliest september that would be widely available but thats faster than the vaccines that some we know believe it but i understand that your desire for excess of all vaccines which obviously predates the Coronavirus Vaccine has arguably prevented you from getting funding why would that be well i dont think its prevented me from getting i would say i could have received funding ive been avoiding it because i want to work on. A Broad Spectrum vaccines and i want to finish the job to ensure that the whole world gets access to them so that. It makes me a little leery of working with public money or with Venture Capital because theyre not going to run counter to their goals of the largest return on the stand the u. S. Military have a meet in touch with you about your research on coronavirus thats right weve been talking with darpa biden recently u. S. Ammar just reached out we have a program where were trying to short circuit a lot of the research that goes into trying to rush to make a new medicine against kobe 1000 so what weve done is gone back to these and old anti stars anybodies from 2000 to nearly 20 years ago theyve been very well studied but they point at sars not of in 1000 we have its a while why have they been so slow arguably to get in touch with you i think what happens is that when theres an outbreak like this the larger organizations have essentially lobbyists who can fly over there right away sit down and be like i give us the money right away where my attitude was i would rather walk softly but carry a big stick so i Just Launched my engineering programs i knew i could produce molecules faster and i figured that would be the right time to reach out so in this case i got a little lucky when they reached out to us because they heard about the programs if there are a preventable diseases like malaria still killing so many people around the world obviously mainstream Corporate Media a much more interested in coronavirus because its affecting the developed world why do you feel that the global south and the developing nations of this world are so important in the battle with viruses of this kind. Yes so you know the problem isnt that you dont have enough money for there to be a good working market for some of these supposedly neglected tropical diseases the issue is just that theres more money in cancer or right now more attention for covenanting so part of my intention of our company and our mission is to go after making therapeutics against neglected tropical diseases as well as large scale diseases that affect everyone and just making the Company Small enough that we can become profitable so the Big Companies dont want to work on things like snakebite or they wont work as much on monday because the markets arent as big a something they could spend their money else on elsewhere and they have to only pay for blockbusters because if you have 30000 employees then you have to survive on a metabolism of blockbusters in the us your company cant make it way but if thats so why is it do you think in fact we have the chief scientific officer of g s k one of the Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies in the world and why is it the Big Pharmaceutical Companies are being approached by governments and not to small Smaller Companies is that a mistake being made by governments as they pour funding into the Big Pharmaceutical Companies yeah i think sometimes you know you talk to the you know so its sort of like lobbying in general and yeah i would advise them to distribute those resources to the Big Companies because theyre professionals at best but theres a reason the Big Companies go in and buy up Small Companies once they build new medicines and that is that innovation happens more easily in smaller biotechs in a dozen the risk adverse large scale portfolios of make a pharmaceutical i think theres sort of a theres a fallacy of economy of scale in pharmaceutical companies you know all these groups get excited they start to get 800000 employees to just the idea oh if we had a 10 times more people we can produce 10 times more jobs and that is just never proven to be true i think when you actually run induced into institutional inefficiencies brought prosy and then too much isolation of the engineering from the the governance so in general it has been the case that large farmers go in and wait for innovation happens by a tax and then they buy those biotechs once they reach a certain one. But maturation now i know you mentioned antimalarials may be a hiv these different type of treatments being experimented with why do you think critical to future pandemics in terms of treatment will be the animal human transmission and research into into that dynamic well thats where the new dynamics come from so. It is easy which is already circling and humans will eventually develop that herd immunity you mentioned where people have had some exposure to it previously and then also the longer it is hes been around more likely will have established medicines for it so the really scary pandemics are often coming out of other species this is a very new looking virus a pathogen that we havent experienced before and so no one really has existing adaptive immune protection that happens here with the new Novel Coronavirus but it also happens when theres a pandemic influenza where those are actually coming from pigs or birds and theyve been shuffled up there genetically with parts of the virus that can infect humans and so its a flu which sounds familiar but its actually flu from another species which means not us are prepared to respond to take a level thank you. Its revenue off of the brick making a killing for grown a virus from its crisis capitalism while more and more quarantined nature leaders paving the way for big profits from big pharma all the small coming up part 2 of going underground. You are no offense but you no longer a young woman in fact you are one of the last living survivors of the nazi yeah. Im aware of that. Leverage all you like and you can never forget i know auschwitz was really like to be in hell because he would never believe it was a human ghetto to ask obvious course for 30 years of filth and be. Very bad at all seems so a lot to offer by the family to make it feel good when i get out on the farm saw you i want to take my song to their next meal so he can listen and hopefully bless heard screams. I do very well thank. You. Very much right. Welcome back in part one we had for me meteorologists with a Vaccine Company c. E. O. Glanville who suggested that even if Big Pharmaceutical Companies were willing to produce a vaccine they might not be able to do so quickly enough to make a difference so why. Countries like the u. S. And the u. K. Paying them so much money nic didnt is the director of global justice now and joins me now nick thanks for coming back on next year when the United States why should we not expect the u. S. Health care system such as it is to respond well to the coronavirus well its one of the most Market DrivenHealth Care Systems in the whole world i mean it it is more expensive than any other Health Care System in the developed world and it produces the least good health outputs so you have things you know you have Human Development indicators the worse in the United States anywhere else in the world because its a completely business dominated Market Driven system i mean corporate big corporations prey all on peoples illnesses and whether you get treatment or not depends on how much money is going to your pocket and however bad it is in the United States the near liberal countries across the world face similar dilemma when it comes to corrode the virus it does not affect the 99 percent the same way as it affects the boy one percent of the world yeah i think thats an important point because people think Global Pandemic thats going to affect all of us is a kind of great leveler you know it could affect any one of us and of course to some degree it could but its not the same likelihood that its going to affect somebody who can afford able to work from home doesnt have a public facing job has good rates of sick pay and in the United States like you say you can afford to go and see a doctor and get a test i mean the problem is our country now as huge numbers of people on 0 hour contracts without proper right without proper sick pay that too scared to even admit if theyre feeling ill let alone be able to go and get a test and take the time off if they need to nothing in the budget that adequately addresses that here in britain no adequately no absolutely not absolutely not i mean i mean that that there are a whole groups of people who essentially can even use those kind of services migrant communities and that kind of thing. Huge homelessness problems of course here in la. And but i mean even for people who fall into some of the new safety net that was announced yesterday its a tiny tiny amount of money i think people are looking for some degree of protection and that the government is interested in their welfare and too many people i think believe and i think theyve got good justification to that essentially the government is interested in the markets is interested in protecting business but isnt particularly interested in the experience of most ordinary people at this time well that was very moved by the chief scientific officer he was saying that the coalition of preparedness innovations call seppi is going to be amazing. To try to tackle the Coronavirus Crisis what is be exactly its a kind of a Public Private partnership and not to say that it doesnt do any useful research or anything like that but in a way the very formation of this body is a proof of the failure of big pharma of the pharmaceutical industry which really is not is not fit for purpose is completely dysfunctional it does not to do the research into the diseases that affect most of most of humanity most seriously because theres no money to be made it does not its not done with proper chronic conditions as opposed to epidemics absolutely because if you can keep selling a medicine to somebody over a long period of time with a chronic illness thats how youre going to make an enormous amount of money were facing an antibiotic apocalypse now right i mean antibiotics could become could be rendered ineffective within the next 20 years in modern medicine entirely depends upon these drugs but the pharmaceutical industry doesnt have an incentive to research these drugs because they would be back up the last option drugs that essentially wouldnt be used very much only when theyre absolutely necessary in coming years when their patients are still going to be on the drugs so by the time those drugs are really coming on stream in a real. Necessary to humanity would have expired in the corporation to make any more money out of them so its not doing what it was set up to do in fact. Blame is usually a portion to either the poor and vulnerable who seek to be able to treatment all the doctors and clinical commissions that are doling out the antibiotics is not that theyre not to blame no no not at all i mean that there is blame to be apportioned to the over use of antibiotics and especially by agribusiness which pumps these things into into animals and completely unnecessarily simply because theyre kept in such awful conditions but by and large theres no reason we dont have a new generation of antibiotics except the incentives arent there you know we have a big pharmaceutical sector globally than it does researching medicines that we all need. Many many of the new breakthrough medicines are actually discovered by small operators Small Business is often with public money they get bought up by big pharmaceutical corporations and thats how they end up with the patrons that they then sit on the mate and profiteer from for years and years and years and were covered it a little the bill in Congress Seems to have been watered down and what it should watered down does adequate justice to what happened as regards the price being able to be charged by a Pharmaceutical Company that produces a cure or vaccine for grown ups are liars but what do you make of the fact that this organization shepherds who were working with the Big Pharmaceutical Companies they did have a commitment to make medicine affordable and that was reversed that decision in december 28th he calling it a step backwards they are only talking to m. S. F. And working with them to try to reverse that decision again because this is the whole purpose of why this was set up in the 1st place the jet is they would say we cant have limitations on charges for any drugs because it will stop innovation that executives of course it is which is absolute just what they say again and again and again we have to be able to were taking massive risks we have to be able to recoup those costs. When it comes to the price of the drugs that we sell it couldnt be further from the truth because actually the biggest risks in pharmaceutical research taken by us by the public purse by taxpayers money at the end of a 2 stage of Medicine Development about 2 thirds of the money that goes in is public money it drops to 1. 00 3rd a little bit a little bit later but then the Public Sector just offers this research up for development and manufacture by big pharmaceutical corporations who then make an absolute fortune on it for years and years and years to come so its a real case of socialism for the big corporations and the rich and the free market for the rest of us and so if Big Pharmaceutical Companies are in effect incentivize not to produce vaccines for peck pandemics given that were in the middle of a divergence in l. What are we supposed to do look at governments that havent been incentivizing their vote was Suitable Companies to do so what we all think about cuba and not about countries with big lobbying groups for the i think many many such countries have indeed done things better then than we have i mean many developing countries get to get their drugs from from countries like india who have wonderful Drug Industries that can produce generically and that can evade some of this intellectual property regulation there is massive amounts of Public Research funding going into the creation of a vaccine for corona virus at the moment and thats a positive thing but we i mean if its public money going into it i mean they shouldnt you set up your own manufacturers so you can take this stuff directly to the people who need it as a government or even a good company absolutely but even short of that if youre on able to do that in the short term at least put conditions on the funding youre given to say there is no intellectual property provision thats going to allow you to profiteer from this drug for the next 20 years weve got theres no conditions on it from the British Government at the moment which is a huge problem and in the United States we know that there are senators like Bernie Sanders of course who are pushing for these conditions to be applied but at the moment 7700000000. 00 flows out of conditions and this is the power of the lobby the dinners the drinks the reception. How do they have this power of are all politicians. Its a huge powerful lobby they truly have a lot of money and they use that money i mean in the United States as you know you can you can you can effectively by politicians and political positions through the lobbying money that you spend there is to be expected arguably the Mainstream Media in nato nations out and is concerned about preventable Disease Control in the global south theyre not going to presumably who could say theres been an emergency for them and pandemics yes for decades in a virus is nothing new but what have you made of how theyll be able to respond to corrode of ours in the global south in developing nations given i. M. F. Pulls the. Conditions on privatisation of medical resources in return for World Bank Aid one of the problems in a lot of countries particularly subsaharan african countries is absolutely as you say the conditionality placed on those countries by the International Monetary fund and the world bank throughout the eightys and ninetys affectively decimated any kind of Public Sector in those countries what we should be doing is helping those countries to build up those those Health Care Systems and then to tax the investors in corporations so that they can continue running those systems into the future a bit like we did here after the after the 2nd world war unfortunately a lot of Development Professionals nowadays seem to spend enormous amounts of time scratching their heads and trying to work out how you can get Financial Markets to do that job for you. So what are the bonds pandemic ball is made up completely made it was made it was made up but they are now real instruments that the world bank has one on advertising. Well that the price is now plummeting not surprisingly but but but but essentially these bonds are something that rich investors in which countries can come by they they make a very good return for those investors in years when there is no pandemic when the pandemic is triggered then suddenly the capital in those bonds is supposed to go to provide liquidity assistance immediate assistance to those countries that need it most idea maybe of course however how do you get people to buy these bonds in the 1st place and then you trade in them on exchanges and of course so you would say you essentially have speculation with. A pandemic or not but they dont even work in their own terms because in order to get people to buy these things the terms have to be so favorable to the investors they have never been triggered to date despite a barrier and what not they have never been triggered now they probably will be triggered which means that never be used again because no will want to invest in them again meanwhile through all these years theyve not been triggered these Pension Funds and hedge funds and whatever in rich countries have been have been essentially being fed. Interest and premiums for. These bonds money that was supposed to go into Development Fund supposed to be assisting low Income Countries to be flowing into the pockets of rich investors and finally the money that will be released now will be completely and utterly insufficient to deal with what we invite any pandemic traders or indeed issue was on the program love to hear more about that just finally and briefly a fine print of any u. K. Free trade deal with the European Union if indeed its even going to be published in the growth of ours i mean the thing that im still worried about is it seems that Boris Johnsons government has an absolute preference and priority for doing a trade deal with the United States rather than the European Union and the reason i fear that is it will be importing this deregulated health model as well as deregulated food standards and so on into the u. K. Its a frightening situation and i mean if theres one positive you can draw from this awful and frightening situation that were living through is that maybe people will wake up to the idea that big business does not have all the solutions that we need to keep us safe to keep us healthy to preserve our planet and all the rest of it and it did it thank you thats over the show will be back on wednesday ahead of the release of natures annual report detailing its achievements as one of its members to be threatens war in syria and the refugee crisis that would put millions in harms way until then join the underground by following us on you tube Twitter Facebook instagram and so on. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy people in foundation let it be an arms race in this on the spear in Dramatic Development only and introduces east i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical time you see. Him talk. Blushes and. More than the beach he could hold most for the team your he said its a chance thats not always shifting against. Him. The utility bills you know snooki included. A user that i was going to have. To show. For which will leave you families. Through the subsequent users tell them not to be calm cool and come to. The mommy approachable or dismissed from worst imo sure but just. For headlines stories as the number of coronavirus feet celibacy should stop in a run for the countrys leadership claims the crisis is being exacerbated by the u. S. Sanctions. Action really increasing exponentially in other countries suv politicians are being hit hard as well with the i brick disrupting Government Operations we asked the law in slovenian philosopher a slob voice how he sees the crisis affecting every day like. Me to not be the same lot of miley miley people would be completely