A long while to come to worlds apart 17 years ago de walt was convulsing with protest against the war in iraq one even sat a Guinness World record for the largest on to war rally ever but now theres 3000000 in drone nor the over 13000000 protesting across the globe could stall the Bush Administration from launching Operation Iraqi freedom which would lock up the country in fratricidal violence for years to calm whats really take for iraq to recover from at all to discuss that im now joined by a far higher. Chairman of the Iraq Advisory Council and a former political advisor to iraqi president s mr aldrin its so good to talk to you thank you very much for your time. Thank you for having me now next month as you just heard me mention will mark the 70th anniversary of the Bush Administrations decision to invade your country on false pretenses and while nobody these days there is to defend the rationale for that why i think there is still a discussion going on about whether the american intelligence was so bad by accident or by design doesnt even matter as far as you are concerned or clearly of invasion of iraq and the liberation of what we call that of iraq as being a turning point in iraq as history. Also was a chance for iraqi liberation from tyranny that have been exposed to for a good 35 years or so that the iraqi people lived under persecution torture. And political persecution that they were subjected to a very bloody regime for years and years so we as iraqis most of us would see it as a liberation although it was turned later talk of persian led to a lot of unrest and conflict but in its core the tours are a cause for celebration for iraqis well its interesting you say that this liberation as you just alluded to came at the at a very high cost and i would argue that many people in iraq are still paying that cost of with the main risks and insecurities and our own lives so are you saying that it was all worth it historically that it was the prize acceptable for iraq to pay to be 3. 00 from tyranny where the thing is i dont think its a counter fireball argument to say this is worth a dollar not worth it in terms of we we dont look at a bad way what is clearly sure is iraq was living. And. Very to run a dick to dictators who who was holding to power at whatever cost and we have seen the cost of hundreds of thousands killed we called in to an aide to year a bloody war that more than a 1000000 iraqis were killed in drug war as well as 1000000 or plus iranians were killed on the did the rest of you see in the regions all to do with that regime. We have seen so its not a comparable situation room one for one but for iraqis they enjoy a lot more freedom than they ever have under saddams regime the same time the welfare of the iraqi people is by far better now than then and the world wars yes there are such backs in terms of security in some of the stable it is due to new factors that got into the original equation but the iraqis themselves are much better off now than they were before now the reason i pose this question she is because the iraq war has now emerged as a major theme in the democratic primary process in the United States but equally between senator Bernie Sanders who voted against the war and former Vice President joe biden who supported it and this is this argument is ultimately about the u. S. Foreign policy how major decisions were made back then and how they are made right now. G. s think that americans have made any changes in that Decision Making process based on the experience that they had in iraq would do you would you like them again to how common how often to your country and announced without asking your population whether it wants to be liberated or not. I think is the iraqis were almost you know to specially after these the opposition groups to the iraqi previous iraq a vision where united in terms of helping their americans to to liberate iraq. And it was would have not been possible if it wasnt for the help in terms of the American Election and the antics that usually goes on and the claims and counterclaims its all to do with electioneering i dont think we should take a lot. Into it these are matters of suppling scores or making points in an internal election as though they are the one who really make that for their own. Public or local consumption its not only about their own public i mean when you decide to help people across the globe its it has to do something with more than just electioneering i mean like its its ultimately you know a major decision for the World Security i know that history doesnt accept hypotheticals but im sure youve run them in the your mind more than once what do you think iraq would be like if that fateful decision to bomb baghdad hadnt been taken if diplomacy were given a bit more chance the fact is that iraq under Saddam Hussein was a bloody. Wars and torture and suffering of the iraqi people under sanction and Everything Else that they have endured during saddams regime this is not going to not going to change and continuation of that it would have been even worse for the iraqi people but they are what i am talking about in terms of the local electioneering of the american democrats now theyre debating whether some of them oppose that some of them were for the war and so on this is. Definitely its a local issue that they usually come up i mean if you go back to the turn to 16 election and President Trump then was making all sorts of statements about taking back the oil and. Going there and going that and hes going to do this do that and even building the walls and im going to do this this is these are all electioneering pledges that they made which Means Nothing when. Comes to actual policy what we what we are really concerned about in iraq is to find stable or to hear of and care what the world 11 can do that could say oh dont say but the problem is of course is that what candidate what one candidate says sometimes transpire is in terms of actual action on the ground and it happened not only to iraq it also happened to your neighbor syria which provides an alternative template for how the removal of a man that wanted or horrible leader could have been attempted when you look across the border and compare rock to syria what do you think had it worse the thing is looking at the iraqi prospect of the the why the prospect of on the iraqi prospect was iraq is by far better off now than they were under saddams regime and there is nothing to convince me otherwise because we have seen 1st hand the atrocities committed by the regime i for myself i was a push marg and i knew what it looks like and ive seen the Chemical Attacks on the court of this religious ive seen how soon the victims are followed. Ive had friends who were who were murdered and tortured in secure secret believes youre misrepresenting the shia im not arguing that Saddam Husseins regime was a good regime that it had to be preserved my question is whether how being the iraqi people or any other people across the globe by launching a war on false pretenses is really a way to go and what your seem to be saying to me that yes you know it was worth it i mean all the sacrifices that your country has and i want to see your son know to your question what im saying is im explaining to you my perspective the iraqi prospective in terms of what happened and the history and the past 17 years its your your your prospective maybe is their friend but that doesnt change what im seeing here and what im saying to you is. For iraqis now they live better could do should we have better had a much better 17 years could we could have had a much more prosperous iraq a stable iraq yes has there mistakes happen absolutely could the americans have made things better by far they couldve than they shouldve have made it better. Doesnt mean that im agreeing with their medications on what they have conducted here and they have committed crimes some some of a 2 year they have the same time participated in the iraqi liberation so overall to me its important to point out the iraqi liberation by the help of americans was an important factor by the same time they were they they made mistakes and the mistakes some of them were still paying prize i mean i can name just a few now i can tell you for example not allowing a quick Iraqi Government to be in place after toppling saddam was a big mistake appointing paul bremmer as the only source of power and authority was a big mistake the decisions paul bremer made then it was a big mistake of the dissolving of the army was a big mistake and so on so if we go through details we will find puns and tons of mistakes that american did but that does not take away from the fact that they have ousted a tyrannical dictator who was bloodthirsty and he participated in the murder and killing of hundreds of thousands of iraqis and millions and wars with iran then the invasion of kuwait and so on absolutely this is exactly what i am trying to did to do that on this program speaking of which since 2003 march 2003 the purpose of the u. S. Presence in iraq has been reframe several times from war on terror to nation building to war on terror again to what exactly what do you see as the purpose as the strategy of the american presence in your country today. What the american strategy now is the from by far there was a huge difference between now and then there where we can now they are a lot less involved with iraqi politics on daily basis on the same time the new administration have a bigger strategy would mainly it call the focus was on iran rather than iraq itself we do complain about a lack of american strategy in iraq and nowadays they see iraq in theirs and in the context of iran more than iraq itself in my opinion thats a mistake that they do because it iraq itself is a very important country its jude its geopolitics and strategists situation is important of the same time iraq is the 2nd largest oil pick or oil producer and has impact on the oil on the World Economy and iraq should be should be looked at on its own rather than being looked at in the context of the iran conflict which obviously the americans have given that top priority well mr elden we have to take a very short break now but well be back in just a few moments states and. You know we talked a lot on the show many years about economy and currencies and what makes a currency really what makes a currency a scarcity for example gold is a currency its money because its scarce thats the primary reason people use it as money keynesian economics or a socialism is usually unworkable because the people who are organizing it think that well you can just print all you need program print more money theres socialism for a bank. On wall street as was pointed out recently one of the big president ial debates you know bank its a trouble just print more money well whats the ultimate scarce commodity what is the ultimate scarce commodity think about it what is the ultimate scarce commodity. Welcome back to worlds apart in fact chairman of the Iraq Advisory Council and a former political advisor to iraqi president michele didnt just as you were saying before the break the importance of iraq for the United States has decreased as the u. S. Military presence in that country it dropped from around 150000 at its peak in 2011 to roughly 6000. 00 right now and even dov contingent is a cause for a controversy and political games the Iraqi Parliament earlier this year called on their merican troops to leave but as we all know neither side seems to be in a rush to implement that resolution does the iraqi Political Class really want. To pack up and go. I think you will find differences of opinion and position on this matter most majority dont think that the american departure right now is the right thing to do they do they do have a significant role in terms of their war on isis the logistical help on the intelligence help but they provide in terms of tracking isis and there were about them plus they provide an important cover that iraq lacks and this is cannot be compensated quickly if they are to leave right away so the iraqi establishment in general are marked with the idea of of removing them as as the parliament and decision contemplated but rather than they should negotiate and park and organize some sort of withdrawal stage worse agreed by both sides because both sides would suffer if its done abruptly you just said that both sides would suffer if they destroy is done abruptly and i can imagine the fallout on the iraqi side but what is the potential fallout in the american side because the americans currently have between 45 and 65000 troops in the region spread out between jordan and saudi arabia back train etc is being in iraq really so important for the americans because it looks like hes in a way they retain a massive presence in the region yaz the from the terms of if you look at the map you see the americans have lack of presence in the in our area. Look at the east or so or north they they they have very little presence and thats why the they give it more importance plus the base they they use like i said they needed for cereals which is an important aspect of this whole region and thats why iraq is situated in the strategic lee important position in the in the region. For so for the americans of they have presence and the gulf is not the same as one that was in iraq obviously the war on isis is based in syria and iraq so the only place where they can really fight isis and track isis is in iraq and syria now given that its a very limited contingency around 6000 ships as a sad and given that President Trump. Did promise his constituents to quote and and this war is how big is the risk of him just you know pulling the troops out of iraq and there or re assigning them to other persian gulf bases and what would that do to iraq the issues not the numbers i mean the essence is not 140000 like what it used to be but the 6000 and the operation that they have on what they provide is important and usually they use Technology Satellite tracking and Everything Else that theyre its and theyre in their position in pursuing the isis war that is whats more important than the actual number of them as a logistics is not that difficult to to to take them out of the decide to go that line but as i said the suffering and the change in strategy would be immense and the effect would be a negative. Effect on the american policy in the region would be huge. So i dont think theyre very are going to make that decision of the stage obviously they are looking into negotiating with the iraqis to work about how how they would work out a presence of some sort whether be the under nato or or otherwise now mr elden the call for the removal of foreign troops from iraq Gain Momentum after the americans and the iranians exchanged strikes on the iraqi territory in connection with the u. S. Assassination of the range general custom silly money now if washington indeed respects the iraqi sovereignty even they want to stay in your country on negotiated terms why dont they consult you beforehand iraq is not an american backyard or isnt. Basically the Iraqi Government have issued a statement condemning the attack and on obviously it was a blatant violation of iraqs sovereignty it was something that they should have not done on that should have not taken place but as i said the americans before i said that they look into iraq in the context of the iraq conflict for them general celeb money or as. A very important figure that they they felt that they had to take action on him but obviously generals for their money was a friend of iraq and he was very important person for the iranian establishment. His killing was a major turning point in my opinion for the politics of the region presence in iraq and i know less that so the americans look. At this action as a way of retaliation as a way of strategic decision im not sure but it was something that they have taken place on the iraqis responded to it accordingly now as you mentioned you see it as a blatant violation of iraqi sovereignty of each unfortunately is not the 1st time that such an act at happened but. Is it taken in the in iraq as a sort of as an isolated sad affair vance unfortunate ones or is it something that may turn into a pattern where the United States and iran turning iraq not just into the battleground for political intrigue but an actual battleground to exchange strikes where the fact is they both look at iraq. In one way as a conflict zone and both sides try to persuade iraq to be on their side and if it suits them they will use iraq as grounds to attack each other or attack each others interest this is what the iraqis dread most. I have tried hard to to get iraq out of this conflict because both of them are regarded the Strategy Partners and they both have immense influence on effect on iraqs. Sovereignty iraqs economy iraqs military and iraqs stable ety both of them are capable of destabilizing iraq of they wish to and both of them could contribute to the stabilization of iraq in the different ways so for iraq really there is little of iraq could do in terms of stopping them apart from condemning any act that could be regarded as a violation of iraqi sovereignty and the same time they won the iraqis want to persuade each side differently to to really take their conflict with each other somewhere else on the eve of the iraqs alone while i actually have a couple of questions on that particular topic but before we go there i began this program by mentioning the global protest against the war in iraq 17 years ago and over the last couple of months iraq itself has become a center of sustained protests is there anything special anything different about this wave of public discontent or the way its been suppressed or perhaps rechanneled in recent weeks. What this protest is the really annoyed coming for the iraqi people as to the suffering that they have in the hands of the current political establishment were the political establishment failed to take advantage of the huge resources of iraq enjoys and put these resources into serving the people into rebuilding iraq and sort of infrastructure creating jobs and and really Building Services and institutions the iraqi people do suffer from lack of these resources in the same time from the corruption the that has almost institutionalized in the iraqi life of the same time the unstable ety and lack of security be it what has led to the darst war the aftermath of it and the destruction the us as war have brought to iraq so if you look at it it is something that the iraqis feel bitterly about the lack of services and they their iraqi young people big numbers and millions that there are without jobs and they see themselves as with very little prospects so it is as you can say an answer to their lack or the for the years of neglect there quite a few people who said jazz that this new Prime Minister that it was appointed a few weeks ago is essentially a copycat of the of the Previous Administration despite having the support of a. Very prominent. Shia cleric knocked out all solder eases that shoe is that sure that the new administration is jazz and your rendition of the same Political Class that has been in power in iraq ever since Saddam Hussein was hanged. Well we hope these lot of them in this movie are Prime Minister those they can never come with a major statement and made 14 pledges and thats all sounds good but we have to wait and see if this new administration will be a continuation of the past or he will come up with something new he is making the right promises and people are looking at it with a with a probably with benefit of doubt but its something that we have to see he he has moved away and the law he has moved away from the usual established way of appointing ministers and appointing his cabinet hes been so far resisting all pressure from the Political Parties to to appoint any ministers from them and hes insisting that he will choose his own cabinet hes also insisting that he will choose the ministers based on their professional marriage rather than Party Affiliations and i wonder if thats not an i effect speculation because at least according to the wall street journal Political Parties in iraq have long turned ministries into their own 5th dumbs thats the quote to maintain their grip on power. Isnt the new Prime Minister naive in thinking that he can forego the partys preferences in major appointments and still secure the support for the cabinet in Parliament Im not going to call him naive but he knows the exact situation hes he he used to be a minister he was elected twice as a member of parliament he he constantly visits iraq and he knows whats the score. Some people. Call his 14 pledges as wishlist. And this is probably is one of them its a wish that he has whether he will succeed in that or not its something that we have to wait and see a lot of people might not give him the highest score in terms of succeeding. But it was something that was different and hes pursuing it in a different way and its been looked at differently but some people do have sons as a continuation of the old regime and some people say you know its a new era now oh mr allowing the new Prime Minister designate has a little Political Base but he secured the support of. The popular a populous reach every year call it cleric mcdowell souther why do you thing mr al souther threw his support behind mr lowry and what do you think that support this condition dawn. The thing is they looked at. Established this rhythm in terms of backing certain candidates and then moving away from them hes more leaning towards the people taking to the streets when things go wrong and so on so it is this is a rhythm and his method of governing you know and expanding his his constituency the support base and as we care for you to really track him from 2003 until now he has gone through various stages but every time he comes out stronger and he increases has constituency and you can see that has been his parliamentary base is increased under the last election he won 54. 00 seats and its expected that he will increase the sma jaw ricky later on so does something that he see himself as the backer of this. New candidate although not declaring it wholeheartedly or publicly but he was instrumental in and selecting. Mr allawi. Though thats a way that he looks so that its another tool another way another method of expanding his base yeah its very interesting the iraqi politics is fascinating perhaps he should himself run for Prime Minister once even though he ruled out any political role for himself mr eldin its been a great pleasure talking to you thank you very much for sharing your perspective oh thank you very much for having me and thank you for watching hope to see you again next sunday on worlds apart. Thanks. Don. Join me every 1st week on the alex simon shore and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sport im sure ill see you there. For employees from russias but news agency and to have been released they were detained by police earlier in the day and questioned. British police clash with migrants at the Turkish Border after ankara gives the green light to Asylum Seekers hoping to reach the new parent paid to put pressure on their backing is offensive in series it has been a long way from tucson just the supporters with the 1st phase of his u. S. Extradition case not complete during the hearings that we can least found the sketch in a glass cage and denied the opportunity to interact with his lawyers we hear one of them. Couldnt take part in the Court Process this is inconceivable how can a person be in Court Without being able to