All of them all coming up in todays going underground 1st on saturday show we spoke to m. P. s from both the fein about the return of good friday agreement local government to Northern Ireland we also was the shin fein m. P. From c. Malloy about the history of his party during the troubles the subject of a new book by a selfconfessed for m i 5 spy willie calling who confesses to working at the highest levels of sinn fein in the seventys and eightys well i said this in response to collins claim that some of the British Government secretly wanted a United Ireland well i think at different times you asked if i know your thoughts are on the British Government i do said they would never talk to their aid and yet we find behind the scenes a war tocome to their aid as were trying to get a political settlement on their terms so i think the British Government like any other government work on a number of different time just at the same time will be made to have active overexaggerate as a thinking oh what a port and he was caught i think in the mind of british intelligence. With a car and worsened the key player we also asked him about whether the iras illing control shin fein is alleged by coughlan well i think if you look at the our party as a Democratic Organization a Political Organization to stand for election our members our deputy 1st minister no was elected democratically and so with all our members with that we recently went through the west new selection where 7 of our m. P. For returned again so i think in order for a clearly a Democratic Organization well im now joined by the author of the book factors by my life as an m i 5 agent its agent frayne with the column willy welcome to going underground how come youre still alive and why is the book called thatcher spy. Its going to certain strains but i think im a very lucky person. Its one of those things that you know when youve been where ive been and you get taken notes and you know youve had a lucky escape. As time goes on you miss the adrenaline because we lived on around and i lived around but i suppose the reason im a lady is i still practice. You know driving around about 3 times and going back the way i came or walking down the street. And look at another set in the one the one im really looking across the street to see is behind me and thatchers but. I dont know where i got the. Name from i think was because there was i work in as a soldier undercover and you know i dont really believe or think that i was out in portland and then when i was taken out of terry. And within 4 days among mrs tices jet leave in belfast to condi london and my familys you know my wife and my 2 sons and my daughter i think its great. And im just sitting there thinking you know this was buy into condos this way we use so stupid im going to get at that and the shadowy m i 5 s. Is like the f. Are you in a 2nd lets go back a bit and go back to how you became a spike as he left the army. And some ago Alan Reece Morgan said he has wanted you to go home and spy on your neighbors and friends put you in place before Harold Wilson is elected yes and why would you join the British Colonial power that was responsible of as you say in the book they ran the are you see in particular raided your own mothers house well youre a catholic when i when i when i grew up on the craig in the state and there was no work for young men like me on your name for example would have seen to it and the school you went to did you didnt get a job because the protestants run the system in the north so it was unusual for young men of my age to join the army because our fathers have been in the army i mean im i was born in 1940 its on a war p. C. And when i got to my regiment i discovered they were 25 young i respond the same as me theyd left fail fast and very to join the british army so that was an unusual. Ok it will be seen is unusual maybe on in the end derry around 177. 00 the republicans they enter what you call an anti capitalist phase tell me about you witnessing that because. You didnt seem to support their anticapitalist phases around the time the ira killed jeffrey i gate of du pont du pont of course in from as for supplying agent orange vietnam which killed a thing a war that killed 4000000 somebody made the decision some where the thumb people time the normal ays our society in north with big factories and lots of jobs was the wrong way to go on i remember really well been at home one night and a knock came to the door and my neighbor said to me theres a young guy here looking for your sister. And i think is the trouble so we brought him and we looked after him as it turned out she was one of the people that was involved in the murder of geoffrey i get. I mean even his murder caused mayhem all the across to america when when president carter even said he knew it was a disgrace. Du pont was a drunk then to convey that bloke supplier so shortly after you met Martin Mcguinness you notice gerry adams is trying to promote him politically trying to get him away from the Armed Struggle tell me about. Initially it was very in those with a cause Martin Martin was it was o. C. Of Northern Command at the time. And we were we have records on the sort of like the tracks on the one hand shane finn was developing epis and it was in baby stage you know we were paper sellers we collected money for the prisoners dependents from brazil did you know all the faith in us is that. But it became noticeable after a while that gerry adams seemed to have this force a of want to take the movement down a different route. Not necessarily to the peach route the turner road where they could get some traction out of the British Government. Indeed to get martin on board with it martin again as the long Journey Towards peace will never happen just so back then youre talking with these high powered people in the Republican Movement and theyre what youre flying over to london and meeting Stella Rimington at a hotel in west london alan raised morgan introduced her to me as more as i like very knowledgeable politics music of the tell me that heath wont last for olson will be on again i mean you see. The f. R. U. Which im trying to get you the 1st loosely allied to the s. A. s of it the guy who ran it was going to gordon core of the as a yes but gee did you get the feeling that this colonel that alone stiller rimington they were politically against wilson against the left annoyed to know. All i knew was that somewhere in the background behind the body politic there was a movement or a group of people who seem to think. This could lead to deification of ireland but we need to get these guys on board they need to be politics before we can deal with them because if we try to say a lot to the politicians theyll say theyre terrorists we counted with them its just its difficult to explain. Its as if there were people behind the scenes who really wanted the unification of ireland and they seen this as an opportunity within the intelligence of absolutely absolutely im pretty sure they were denied because they then go on the record i think equally unbelievable arguably is that you were shocked at the murder of a census worker yes a young mother but this is in the context of saving a 15 year old paul with was killed by the r. U. C. In april 181. 00 around the time of join mothers there were times that. I had worked with what could be called divided loyalties always nightly sure here i was an undercover soldier trying to focus on what i was sent there to but i kept seeing these things that contradicted the whole can a back story of what i. Mean for example you enlisted in the air for you after that killing yes what happened was i left m i 5 in 1980 december 1000 needed me just cant go back to shun fancy listen i want to leave it to you just dont do it so obvious sounds was on Hunger Strike on the election and from minus 0 to long came up and there was an effort to get them elected and i spent a lot of time and for mana and soter on. Canvas and put da posters get ready for the day of the election and i came home and i was sitting at home and. My mother said to me theres a young girl comment on the steps and i think shes crying so she went to the front door and let her and then she came and she was shaken. And it just became clear straight away that this young girl was a census collector. And that what happened was she had a clipboard and on the right hand save the clipboard was called in the scale the estate i lived on a republican area and its all blocked i didnt read for not to go near there this is the 1981 british sensors that republicans all across the 6 counties were told do not yet with this colonial sense correct she was a Young Farmers wife in fact she was doing what she was doing to earn 5 pounds a day and one day or a shot her they showed a young girl that was earning 5 friends of the she was killed for a fiver when bobby signed sans m. P. Yes i dont know Hunger Strike their streets named after him around the world did you meet bobby sands if you meet trances hughes no no but then names they meant nothing to you but in terms of any kind of revolutionary and dario you never heard it out we never heard of bobby sands and fact i mean i dont even know it was green booked in other words if he was a fully fledged member of a or. But but when he dated cause shock waves in the north and everybody all around the world oh mean people came from they said the cardinal from roll nice and politicians from dublin and from london. And amman francis shes i remember there was Something Like a 100000 people went to public sounds as if you know there were francis she stayed. There was a concerted effort to make sure that there was no tomorrow night so. The body was ordered to be taken away to his family all no one was allowed to get near it it was buried with just a few 100 people at the gravesite and it was said on the b. B. C. It break the support is staying away. From when the call and now my 5 agents after this break. Thats geysers survive they say money the girl i. Couldnt take it easy this is a central plank support dying a problem is the problem right now its a stop to. The war weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy. Let it be an arms race. Spearing dramatic developments only. I dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical. To sit down and talk. Welcome back im still with forma and i 5 agent when they call him or he would is the force Research Unit you were there assets i dont know what they paid you if you tell who they paid you what exactly is the force Research Unit there have been submissions to the United Nations about it as a death squad the 1st assertion that was. A team of people that worked call very early on the growing behind the backs of the british army. Initially it was thought it was set up to gather information and to run agents g. E. And for trade theory to infiltrate even the e. V. F. And their own agents and gather intelligence but as time went on agents that were working for the fruit who were volunteers were to be caught in compromising positions. There were all the agents in the same unit so no we had to be agents both on both free informers on inevitably what happened was one star of the kill the other was science crazy but it did happen and eventually we get the steak knife. It was also a free agent and he has no nannies and freddies scupper teachy steak knife denies it well of course you would. He saved your life though theyll never get going to say theres no theyll never get him into court because the minister of defense the one im in court because if he goes into court and he starts to talk about information you pass to the free pass to his hand or peter they pass it to colonel care it passed it to the minister of defense i mean her does this go im new here we have a guy who was an ira bomb killing ira volunteers. And a low to do it and get on with an exaggeration to say that one in 4 members of the ira around this time were members of the British Security services i would say 300. 00 agents yeah i mean i would say that. Towards the end whenever we got very close to the good friday agreement when mcginnis and now thems and everybody was round the table i believe that martin was short and or a devoted way the state of play on the groaned within the ira not names but just roughly how many people in the area right off to the top are british agents and i think he knew them you know the ratings on the war were not going he won the us and i think thats way the same dop and this is whilst m i 5 are being infiltrated by the russians they have agents their own agents killing each other whilst being in the n. R. A. Yes and all the time youre working in this and thinking this is a job well meena. I was in the difference 8 i was on i was on the political side for the one thing you learn aversion fein and the ira even today is that the higher up you go with fear the next thing you know youre sitting at meetings astonishing fin meeting anymore its often half the setting was a or a volunteers the set was a or a commanders you know and thats when you realize these 2 are want i mean even today weve got the Peace Process weve got Mary Lou Mcdonald weve got michelle in need weve got all these people but the ira army consul are still in place they area me consul is their head of the Republican Movement and they dictate what happens within the political opposition very completely deny that so the air for you going back to this because this is a submission to the United Nations i mean 864 civilians were killed around this time by loyalist paramilitaries. And link to the f. Or you estimates so the air for you is responsible for 15 dead do you do you think there could be any truth was it a death scored you were working full menu have to understand that my on the stand than is that steak knife would where possible tailless under the im gone dying to get this k. To cause weve an information that isnt an former american interrogate them know there were times when he got there the gave was gone but the were time said when he got there at the pairs the was there and he was able to a left them interrogate im and shoot em now i a often wondered will i thought i told by under that we were going to do this and when i get there is air issued an of in their way wasnt a removed i mean only you think about the fact that the family the we do of pat finucane the civil rights lawyer who represented people on both sides of the community when invited to downing street David Cameron took or aside by the window in said there are a dog forces in this is british establishment and this is the i dont move for you than any other Prime Minister would the trying to get to the bottom of the most people believe British State sanction merger of a civil rights low well of course i mean the guy in new v. F. Expert his army ease the one node went and shot perth the newcombe and he was a need to do of the furrow eventually was take a voter the earth a violent when he was on trial they drop the murdered charts and they went for a conspiracy to murder on he was flown odor of you natick at of belfast after 4 years in prison on if you did you should be prosecuted because well they count a salad and carrot of an a date and falling off do you think any of his associates did again the one should be prosecuted here for these historical crimes against the un charter as a very difficult question. Its one of those things that i mean if youre the father of the mahler of someone who was murdered in the north of course you know you want justice on at the same time if that leads or could lead to things open up in the way is fear there are. People and politics dont want. To do that mrs thatcher took a special interest in the air for you group you outlined the fact that she was specifically interested in in this group she would have been aware of these atrocities she would have been briefed that the war against terrorism has been won and that there is a unit on the growing gallery intelligence and knowledge and also the f. R. U. Did deals with apartheid south africa did you ever have a gun in the african can you know that you know of any air for you people that had south african guns you know theres been a lot of stuff about how arms smuggling was done with the connivance of m i 5 these are the allegations from arms traders and from apartheid south africa or arms corps the obviously fighting mills mandela this is a learned thing that ever had i ever noticed was i mean as a young soldier i mean i knew we had s n gs and we had writings but some of the hundreds i had an affair had very strange looking weapons and they certainly werent weapons of were issued by the British Government i want to get on to talk about omar and i mean there has been previous allegations about f. B. I. Links to bomb making that was used by the you you talk about cia involvement. In effect in the omagh bombing 300 injured 29 dead. And of course the allegation that you make and others have made is that the r. U. C. Were tipped off about the omar bombing ahead of time no doubt in my mind. Peter kelly a is known as kevin fulton. He was a young soldier in the areas rangers lived in neary and he was in the ira and his recruiters by the force to search and to inform on his colleagues and. He was full on to america where he was 3 and in 02 produced of last fall meaning not. Theres a bomb that goes off and then when the. The r. U. C. Turn up with their socalled team seems a crime of theirs and they start to take photographs flasks camera sets off the bomb and kills more people so he was 3. 00 and 0 to do that and he was the one that invented that and the north he also made them all be working with the real or ever sam a 5 that took a moat to the north i think what they were looking for was for kevin to get more steam with than the unity was and so it become you know promoted and higher up in the movement and as far as he was concerned it was working over the border near nana he was making bombs in the bombs or just been sent up into the north and on one occasion he was involved in making a bomb and a car came from the republic of ireland collected on the conversation he overheard led him to believe that this one was called duma. He got in touch with his handler and he told us under no easy officer that he believed there was going to be a bomb attack on norma no ive been present with peter kelly when he formed the handler to ask him do you remember i told you about the bomb and clearly you could hear is under sin yes i do remember it well i have to check my notes to find the information no strange thing has. The people who partake aaron will not put it in the wrong place they put or that the ball on the street instead of the top of the street so when the ball there came and all the people were driven going towards the ball towards the car and thats why so many people were killed but as far as peter was concerned he warned the hour you see that that was going to happen just as if the British Government oversee denies any involvement in the bomb completely the u. V. s were also set up by aces and the free to create comments in dublin the korea time in somalia to try and bring these forces together to loyalists in the provinces in the north wanted more police an army on the border to stop ira volunteers bring in bombs over the border to place in strategic positions in the north and they tried to force the republics government to put boots on the ground to put army on the grow and put police on the growing arms because they werent armed because if you had infiltrated the gutter absolutely in southern ireland yes and the thing was when someone got the bright idea that. These show bands these musical bands that are common from the republic to the north it might be carrying arms and ammunition over the border for the area to collect when theyre in the north the famous Miami Showband us are good and i know youre over there as well well the u. D. R. The soldiers involved got their uniforms from it was alleged from members of the force of certain. They stopped them a army van on this way down over the border got them all that the bomb went off to certain the static and the speakers cause the pointy blowing off too soon or in the wrong place there were no rules here you know everybody was doing what they thought they could do to to help this thing called to an end and there was a view that their new way this thing going to come to an end its got to get worse before it gets better and that seemed to be the view you know the British Government were involved in the us defense were involved the r. U. C. Were involved i mean. All the evidence though because youre saying this story using all the evidence would have been burnt and some of the documentation here is not for release to 2049 some of the killings on these legacy issues do you think most of the evidence of the kind that would support your allegations of such atrocities wells all are destroyed. John stocker when he led the 1st investigation and the stake they found the f. R. U. He he was tainted by having all of these were some they say this was a deliberate Security Services or exhibition games on stevens called the law and he is doing well and he gathers the evidence and the evidence is burned down in the middle of night all the files all all 0 understanding of the john stevens Inquiry Office they did save the papers apparently it was a for you job dollar and down his office if you speak to the 1st it was in the force of certain here get it will tell you that it was an attack from us for didnt count that were sent over to burn the not property i got to ask you know about the book itself did you know i have to get it vetted by the dino just man ive got to say my program completely on vetted by dean or does this guy dino just secretary have waste bottle andrew violence yeah well you were the book and cut out most of it well i have to say theres a lot in it that you wouldnt expect to be we really we thought that when it went up to the treasurers listener so that the intelligence and Security Committee could look at it we thought that most of the very fact that we would be allowed to publish. Although i have to say you know here we have a lawyer sitting in london and hes paid to do a job. Whatever he feels should be taken and then my 5 lawyer yeah so at the same time youve got these m. P. s because thats what they are sitting on intelligence and Security Committee a lot of them were very very little experience of the north and i dont think they would real lace by letting lawyers go that it was going to cause more incompetents yes absolutely Willy Collins thank you and thats it for the show will be back on wednesday 14 years to the day evil moran is was inaugurated as the 1st indigenous president of bolivia hes currently claiming asylum in argentina undernourished you. Expect like rinku forced to do all the getting into conversation on social media theres a scribe for the showing your true. Financial Survival Guide i dont find any i promise ill if you. See something almost slightly less and less some of my ex in the future dont trust car wash cars. Some. Of. The u. K. 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