Want to know the real numbers we want to know whos supporting in the pens and who smoke and theres no way the kingdom of spain can agree on such a referendum like the u. K. Did it for scotland or the so we dont think were better than any other nation but were not less than any other nation but the e. U. Know that the problem with referenda and i think the bracks and station shows that the independents moment its called supports that as well is that people may change their mind the circumstances may change. Are you sure that if you have internationally recognised referendum and if the majority of catalan say no to independence is that going to put the issue to rest once and for all. Not for me or people like me but we will have a result and we will accept it obviously. The same thing if there is a yes we expect the spanish authorities and the International Community especially the Spanish Government to do what they didnt do on october the 1st 2017 when such a vote was held and they did exactly the opposite which is put people in jail my predecessors in the Catalan Government we saw columb Police Troops being sent to hit people in their heads and we seen almost 2 years of preventive chill for people who organize a vote can i ask you specifically about that our friend because. From what i understand neither the current cut on authorities nor the spain authorities consider it illegal or free and fair for you it wasnt free and fair because of the Police Presence for them it was illegal as far as they resolve the concerned anything over 90 percent of people who came to the polls they supported the independence cost as far as the result the country do you consider them legitimate or it is it more like a legacy or every torkel issue for you it was an enormous wonderful feat bringing millions of people to the polls enabling them to vote despite police disruption and brutality and its something the people of catalonia achieved and the government which was in place then helped the people to do to vote freely for the future now thats the way we think things should be done perhaps we didnt have the strength to fulfill the mandate of the people and thats why we need International Complicity and support to convince the government of spain the this is the sensible reasonable way of doing things the democratic way because the use of force is not helping. People in catalonia we believe that the majority of people but its not a majority lets test it and lets find out the people in catalonia want to vote and thats a certainty for 80 percent according to most polls want to vote for the future and want to vote on independence such an issue has to be delivered to the people and democracy is the rule of the people for the people and with the people so thats the way we think it should be done now the leaders of the along independence moment all over saw that referendum as you mentioned and now awaiting the sentencing by the Spanish Supreme Court and. They are given political situation in spain over all that. Jail terms may provoke and now theyre outburst of violence and now theyre police and ive thought of police cautious on the streets do you share this concern and we will discourage any aggressiveness and thats what weve been doing for more than 7 years now this is a Peaceful Movement its a Civic Movement and its a movement which is fighting for human rights and for a democratic outcome because thats the only way out the use of force and weve only seen that on the side of the powers of the state in spain. Police troops were sent by the Spanish Government the Catalan Government was suspended by the Spanish Government because the law in parliament was suspended by the Spanish Government is a spanish judiciary system that has. Put people in jail kept in there for almost 2 years a preventive jail without trial and well see what the sentences are right now and were very optimistic but the use of coercion on the side of the spanish. To stop help and we believe that it is a historical mistake now what we say to the International Community to people in russia europe elsewhere what we tell them is. Look thats not the way to solve things nowadays we believe another way the only way possible is the one has to be agreed upon their per person for the leaders of that referendum drastically different depending on which legal system they fall on their former president. Pushed him on to go by the german court where some of his associates are now facing up to 25 years in prison on charges of rebellion how do you explain such a drastic difference in terms of the legal treatment in europe where. Legal systems are supposed to be harmonized so i think it explains itself youve got some of the members of the previous government. Half of them which went into exile and there they have been overseen by courts judges Legal Systems they are all free citizens in europe whereas those who remained have been almost 2 years in preventive jail awaiting these sentences and well see what falls on their heads so clearly theyre theres a european justice on one side which acts in a certain way and theres a spanish justice or injustice we think that shows very well different ways to deal with a situation which can only be met through dialogue through talks and finding this way which has to be democratic let me ask you a personal question im sure many catalogs are asking themselves if you had to choose between the leaving your country or staying being behind bars what would you personally opt for as you can imagine a thought about the dozens of times and i dont know i think both both options are respectable it depends on your own personal situation obviously if you have small children its one thing if you dont its different. Really dont know. Well i dont want to go to jail but ready to face it if the time comes because its not my situation which is important its the condition of the freedom of our people they are entitled to decide us of Thomas Jefferson said the world belongs to the living not to the dead not to things which happened hundreds of years ago it belongs to citizens who have full rights and are living nowadays in this place so we must deliver it to the citizens so how do you take the lead. If you deliver it to the citizens while being behind bars would be somewhat constrained yes but morally high. All those in jail. Are saying. Telling those that are telling the world that this is a lesson of dignity to be learned that when you serve the people you have to serve them to the last of the consequences and that. Their their situation is less important than the goals which these goals apply to rights to collective rights which cannot be relinquished which will not be surrendered now there are small but their morals is really much more important than their capacity to act effectively and thats why we consider them and thats why they are our leaders still are and will continue to be. Saying that. They have moral high ground is a little bit higher than the situation up here former president. No. Its also when somebody who is in exile is also a victim of repression and then just a different choice isnt going to compare them in he is not facing 25. In prison hes away from his kids. His family and general small children and its not a desirable situation in my own party scatterable gonna we have one of the leaders the president of our party mr get us was in jail in madrid and the other one the secretary general misses the reader who is in exile in geneva now i understand both of them they both took their decisions and when i talked to them either in jail or in exile i feel enormous admiration the same aeration for both of them i think that these people resent the deserve our respect for what they did for the courage they had and all the time i try to think about them when i have to take decisions but i think they do have moral height and thats why in moral terms i think were way ahead of what. The powers of the state in spain are doing well minister we have to take a very short break now and i think well be back in just a few moments they chant. The world is determined by. No dares thinks. We dared to ask. What politicians do. Put themselves on the line. To get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be president and she. Want. You to go right to the press this is what before 3 of them or cant be good. Im interested always in the waters in the. City. Welcome back to worlds apart from posh minister for foreign action if intrusion of relations and transparency of get along and. Minister speaking about your of the supporters of get along as independents want to stay with then you are a bad one to have independence from spain what does it mean in practical terms well the difference is that we can have our own say and. We dont think country or friends thems a minister in spain lying mr walker a was trying to close down our delegations our voice in europe we want to be in europe we want to deal in trade or in culture we want to have a free voice in our own voice in europe we think we can deal better with our problems if thats the case and that europe will listen better to our own circumstances. Also to a certain extent its difficult to work with somebody in madrid like mr were a again minister of Foreign Affairs of spain who is trying to block. Action who is somebody else undiplomatic as to Say Something like russia is our old enemy things like that i think that is out rage is real and when there is you i mean minister its common to go you can always encounter difficult personalities whether they come from your country or from somebody else it might become the representative of Foreign Affairs in europe exactly talking about that now that i mean that even if you were independent he would still be in that position if he gets his way so. Who would want to be represented by somebody like that who would want to live in a place where your leaders are put in jail because they organized the vote so what were saying is we want a catalan republic because we think it would be fair to our people we think that we would be free to take our own decisions we think it would be better for our welfare for opportunities in europe and elsewhere thats what we think and i think its legitimate to correct me if im wrong but from my perspective borders the way they exist in russia for example they dont exist anymore in europe and catalonia has a fairly broad autonomy sound would say that compare its you the governmental crisis in spain your ability for sell through is now bigger than for many other parts of spain dont you already have all the tools that you would you suppose though well we obviously we think we dont we need to and we want to have more but if what youre saying is true if theres a. Huge amount of selfgovernment and borders are not as straight as they were in the past then whats the big deal whats the big deal why not accept a new state in europe of people who are pro european want to remain in you were not brought to tears will remain yours and want to contribute to the well for of europe into the European Values of democracy of equality of dialogue of. Easts we think that we are ready to contribute on our own to this new europe but its part of the euro meet the European Community and constituency whats the big deal whats the problem why cant we accept that possibility in the 21st century. Im sure you would agree that. Separate from spain perhaps in your vision would be better but it would also have to recognize that spain without catalonia would not be the same country do you have any sympathy for your spanish friends and neighbors and brothers because cattelan it contributes a significant portion to the spanish g. D. P. Its a very vital region and obviously spain would lose a lot if it was this get along in. Are you suggesting that the kingdom of spain is dealing unfairly with catalonia that were paying the bills for spain is a word youre suggesting im not suggesting that but i know that they stealing is pretty widespread here in catalonia and i think many people here at least from the people we talked to yesterday they feel that the Central Government is taking more than its giving to them let me say that right now the main issue is not economic theres an economic side to everything but right now the issue is of civil rights and of democracy we want to be of age we want to take our own decisions so i think its quite reasonable to understand why we want to stand up have our own say and contribute to the welfare of europe and of the world on our own from our own side we think were perfectly capable of and as you said were a prosperous place we dont have economic problems as a country with our economy which is booming right now tourism is booming and whoever has been in catalonia or in barcelona knows that this is a place of talent creativity. Economic prosperity hardworking people so we think we could make an enormous contribution to europe and its diversity and minister i think there is a clear correlation that when Economic Times are good they support for independent stance to the window and when there is a crisis economic crisis. Support for independence towns to increase. Some people in a retort to your argument that one of the reasons while the lawn and get along as a whole has been made so prosperous is because of the contribution of the entire country of spain is that not the case which contribution while the budget their contribution to support for barcelona when it was preparing for the Olympic Games etc i mean but i could have a very long history and there were both good and bad Economic Times for the entire country we believe in solidarity and i think weve proven the biggest demonstrations for welcoming refugees because demonstrations for International Aid incorporation have taken place in parcel in our society is a Caring Society concerning the whole world and concerns spain as well no thats not the issue the issue is is that solidarity of free and voluntary or is it forced to what extent does help in sticking together and helping other people to what extent can that be taken and forced to another situation where youre actually being ripped off where youre not being dealt with fairly and you also have strong theories in favor of the 2nd issue but i insist this is not an economic question and right no we have a government from the Catalan Parliament which came from the elections and theres a Pro Independence majority when there was a crisis in the meiers. A sunni years ago the same slight majority who. Mentioning was there so things are not that different in times of crisis in times of prosperity people are supporting him have been well its been factory eating to be airfare lets vote for this because whats the problem about voting well i think the problem from the point of view of both madrid and brussels is that if. They do course as you see it is pursued here it may inspire other independents are secessionist movements are nationalist moments as across europe do you have any concerns about that because obviously the catalan issue is a very old one but there are more recent costs would you like to see europe pursuing that nationalist secessionists path more actively than its doing now look they voted freely for independence of scotland the result was no they did in quebec the result was no now whats the result when you say to people that they cannot vote and that whatever they vote they wont be recognised it actually helps you in increasing your numbers now since this whole process started and the Spanish Government and the spanish war nikki and Spanish Power has been saying constantly no youre not free to decide youre not free to vote what has happened the numbers have been increasing the last 15 years weve increased from roughly 10 percent of pro independents population to half of that population 50 percent but obviously theres been a very sharp increase in support for independents and white in part and only important but in part thats also because of repression because people are not allowed to decide what happens when you tell a teenager no you cant be free you cant go out tonight you cant engage in sex you cant do anything freely the teenager will probably feel a desire to do things freely all which is prohibited there is not a lot of people to a teenager and comparing the attitude of this. Banished government to a parent who doesnt realize that young people turn of age and then they have their rights to be free to decide upon their selves and to emancipate now is somebody is dealing with a whole community or a country like catalonia as if it were underage and not allowed to do whatever it seems to fit in a reasonable peaceful democratic way if you dont allow that youre dealing with this population house citizens and obviously we dont like that a few months ago you sounded cautiously optimistic about the government the federal. Who favor it. With a cuttle on authorities do you think that opportunity has been for we explore it by both sides. It has been fully explored by mr sanchez and his government despite the fact as you mention that if it hadnt been for us and for the Pro Independence parties he would never have become Prime Minister so there we assisted in changing mr roy horn and we hope that the mr science it will be different but now we see people still in jail almost to use them preventive jail without trial accused of organizing a referendum in charge and they will the the state attorney and the Public Prosecutor have very close connections to the government in fact the general attorney is named by the Spanish Government and the specific prosecutor designed by the government is under the orders of the Spanish Government and they have required a request the very heavy sentences which i hope are not brutal let me also ask you about another controversy surrounding the European Parliament in which the electoral borat banished electoral board from bade a number of. Local representatives from taking their seats at the European Parliament i think we are talking about 3 individuals do you take that as a legal or a political issue. Well the European Parliament is a body of Political Representation so theres no other way you can take that let me say also that this proves the catalan issue and the conflict in spain is not the purely local for it its not an internal affair of spain its in the European Parliament and there in the European Parliament theyre dealing with something as substantial as finding out whether the European Parliament the sovereign and can accept those any piece of those members of the European Parliament which have been of which have been voted in this case for instance by more than 2000000 people now as a dozen Member States like spain have the right of veto to say who goes to the European Parliament and who doesnt go there i think thats wrong but its there on the table of the European Parliament its a United Nations its a National Parliaments its in the International Media its all over the place this is an international issue. Lets face it thats what i said on what do you think you are a human pain that its political but my understanding is that the court and especially the Supreme Court has to follow the law which would have meant that those representatives including mr Pritchett Mana would have to appear in person before the Central Electoral Committee and take the pledge of allegiance on this banished constitution which explicitly bans regional referendums now he went against that doesnt well i mean. Thats a im sorry hes got no no there was a provision and spend as lot of banning referendums like you mentioned that was a raised 2007 but clearly mr bridger on the end back in 2071 against that constitution because here preceded the referendum do you think he kept watch referendums are contemplated in the spanish constitution but isnt that the. 1978 constitution doesnt it stress the indissoluble unity of the spanish nation which i think is a code phrase for d so long it so would put in false happy bolan oh look im pro in the by the entire country im Pro Independence of and. Its in our program ive been elected to Spanish Congress been elected to the city council in the cuttle in government its not illegal because. The defendant in pursuing a. Particular Political Program be it in the pens unionism be it whatever socialism whatever that cannot be illegal now what the can say is that events or acts could be illegal but. We dont believe they did anything illegal by taking people to the to the polling stations to vote that would be outrageous but anyway the issue that youre talking about is really very troublesome can a judge really decide whether an elected representative can go to a chamber or not know sent in the serbian ruled and the spanish courts have already said these people have not been tried cannot go to the European Parliament or to the Spanish Congress now i think thats wholly unfair and that is something which looks very illegal to me apart from unfair while mr rich have to leave it there but i really appreciate your candor thank you very much for your time youre most welcome and courage of yours to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope this year again same place same time here and i want to part. But if she warned you can i do the dishes at the bazemore those jeans nudist beach and see me. As and about that when you guys you. Can use i mean that is without infringing ball. A lot of you will see sawing during fuzzy fights about 2 kids each other both sides. But as in the adams to me as if. The. Cabinet 5 days doing this is. An english lady a thing people who simply. Include in. Israel media a reflection of reality. In the world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation community. Are you going the right way or are you being led. By. What is truly lost his faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Maybe in the shallows. Threatens iraq with sanctions quote never seen before the countrys Parliament Passes a resolution calling for the removal of foreign troops including the u. S. Led coalition. The vote follows americas assassination of iraqs most powerful general in an air strike on Baghdad International airport on friday hundreds of thousands have lined the streets as it. Is returned home. And in the stories that shaped in the week leaks founder Julian Assange claims he is slowly dying in a u. K. Prison saying he is being given. Subjected to 23 hours a day of solitary confinement he made the allegations