Over represented in key modern professions they were equally over represented in. The world of capitalism. Now you would state banking and so on just to conclude briefly on the one hand and various anticapitalist radical movements on the other including both of us along with other rose movements and those observations. Are all beautifully controversial. In your work you often rely on matter for us as a vehicle for the historical narrative and i think in the jewish century in particular youre talking about jews not only as an ethnic group but more so as a matter for for maternity moreover you start and and your book with the prediction that we will all become jews at some point of time. What do you mean no i dont really say that we will become jews im saying that we know that being modern. Means being in some ways similar to. The traditional jewish way of acting so in other words you from a there are nitty is a bug being urban mobile keep peace in the flexible physically for studious articulate and soul and then jews were the 1st moderns because that was their specialization sperm just to be clear that applies not only historically it is not applied not only to the jews but also to the armenians to the chinese to the germans to their roman and many obdurate roster of people who had to be more adaptable more flexible. Maybe taking bigger risks as well but i think your argument right now is that in this day and age that applies pretty much to everybody regardless of whether your and they are if or an expatriate its used to apply to groups as you say to mostly diaspora groups that specialized in Service Provision as opposed to Food Production various intermediaries groups that specialized in dangerous keep each. And jews were very prominent among them prominent in europe but they were in the only ones and there are certain traits that they all tend to have in common and those are the traits that are now becoming universal. And so they tend to be more proficient at things we associate with but then it is said its not all about metaphors and symbols its really about a particular a particular way of life particular ethnic group specializing in particular thing. Things that are not seen. In something. Good morally valuable by the neighbors but things that are that are indispensable in the world today now the jews in europe were treated differently than other ethnic minorities there was a lot of discrimination but i think the discrimination of jews how its own particularities and they had to live in ghettos they were often precluded from holding regular jobs and forced into last socially desirable occupations. Do you attribute the success of the jews the fact that today they hope they are overrepresented in many a well paid socially desirable positions do you attribute that to the inherent interpret nurul nature or is it to some extent a function of the circumstance in other words do they have to credit the process persecution of that ancestors for their success today or is the premiere of the persecution he had to meet the boat specialization jews have been specializing in these things as they said they forced to specialize or was it sort of there is how its reverse among scholars about that. But it wasnt entirely or even primarily about force about exclusion they were excluded mostly because they specialized in things that were viewed with suspicion and often scorned by the surrounding society you know the words if it is morally suspect to engage in usury so called in any operations involving money interests in particular. If it is dangerous. To do you with the body. Healing which would lead to be good medicine. From a very non prestigious occupation in the polluting dangerous occupation to one of the most prestigious and will remunerate in todays world. Mediation of all kinds the or we all of these things that were in the course not being seen as native jews themselves didnt consider themselves need to all those things resulted in their persecution but also helps them perform their function in your book you often refer to mercury who is of course the roman god for trade interprete no ship skill but also thieving and historically your success. Was perceived as my last 0 sum game mentality is really hard wired at the in humans word there is outside area its always perceived as taking something away from their host societies or worse some of them more successful than others in cultivating the sands of goodwill in the local community where they were certainly seen is. Morally suspect all of them because they engaged in things that peers and considered dangerous unpleasant and maybe a little bit i mean well in the interview im not sure thats the but the again this is bisan economies beast on the various forms of reciprocity traditional Food Producers engage in various forms of exchange of people who are merchants who do with money which is something that few peasants have a clear conception of arsene is. Seeds they make money out of nothing right its one thing when you devote yourself to cultivating the soil growing crops and what not and people who somehow live off different kinds of exchange who create wills out of nothing out of thin air or out of say in there which is actually an expression in the you just might have to question is very politically incorrect that they think youre still the best scholars. Do you think. They perpetrated motivations for it the imagery the intensity of it was it in any way different from other forms of ethnic a trip. Yes and no it wasnt different in that there are other groups some of those we have mentioned that were in the same position that used to perform and sometimes still perform the same functions. And so close to say it is view them in the same way so it did to the words jews in europe are very similar to added to toward indians in the a staffer of syrians or lebanese in west africa or the caribbean. Chaneys and Southeast Asia insoles in that sense its not unique to jewish history but if you look at europe within the any of those regions and compare it to its towards towards these intermediary groups compared to other neighbors of course you see you know all of your viewers we all know more or less what that means when. People think of the neighbors in certain ways if we stink of ukrainian folklore for example right then poles are represented in one way muscovites a represented in a certain way and then jews are represented differently or may be seen negatively but choose jews are seen negatively in a particular way and we can talk about this if you are heard you say that they need to semitism in europe in the 19th and later in the 20th century a was to some extent a response to a whats called jewish emancipation that is the end of the pale of settlement policies and that is actually a pretty chilling idea. For a grass of social change the morally right change can ultimately lead to a backlash that would give us Something Like the color cost i mean there was it goes was there was traditional antisemitism it dislike what it was intensified and there was an intensified it changed or perhaps it was in some ways youre right it was intensified and when jews lived their traditional. Fears eries. Occupations and moved into the center of national or social life and became identified with success. Were seen sometimes as monopolizing certain very desirable peace and or basis seen is. Rivals competitors particularly important to paris sides or even somebody if somebody wants to take some up there is there its traditional for any peers and you need merchant is a parasite now when the jew receives an education moves into the National Capital leaves on your street the you can actually see that much more vividly and the contrast between you and him and is much more painful its different it becomes it acquires the new shape it looks different. And of course jews become visible. In seavers that are associated with prestige and influence in even greater degree in other words when you see that so many of them are among journalists are among lawyers you know that what you gives rise to this Conspiracy Theory one of the jews running unfairly running to the right professor to have to take a very short break now will be back in just a few moments states you and. All of us will hoops it has been able to learn from the babies so its a behavior that appears even in death and going babies even if youve never heard or seen love to you will love if youre tickled by your parents. And then we learn how to use this in a more complex way im one of the things that we learn is to how to join in with love to contain. Just they to love when somebody else loves even if you dont know why theyre laughing. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy own foundation let it be an arms race is often very dramatic to follow only closely im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical of time time to sit down and talk. During the Great Depression which im old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed working. There wasnt it was bed you know much worse subject and listen today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. There was a real sense of hopefulness there isnt today todays america was shaped by the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power. Reduced democracy attack solo down to engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to no im chomsky one set of rules for the rich opposite. Thats what happens when you put her into the. Narrows. Well switch will is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as youd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. Welcome back to worlds apart but professor of russian history at the university of california at birth. Professor slow skinned you dont live in the United States you teach at berkeley where i am from what i heard the guarding against social styria typing is pretty vegetal and making jokes about the jews and money can cost one a career and yet you how have a whole book based on the thesis is that jews are overrepresented in look critics and socially desirable locations did it ever gets you in trouble or could demichelis know well you can of course make jokes. But its better to be careful but no no i have not been in trouble though there were people who were unhappy with what they have to say. There were various criticisms some of them very strong i would say accusations well perhaps one reason for that as the book was published in 2004 before the age of campus outrage but i think it reads very contemporary today especially in the light of the current immigration debate in the United States the fact that america or at least half of america talks about the votes for national ism tromp style nationalism what does that tell you. Well you mean votes from the im well i would claim that trump has a nationalist policies and half of the america support him i think 10 years ago 15 years ago it would be unimaginable gratian the way its being discussed are you mean that in that sort of the United States is mean nationalism has been dominant in the us from the very beginning just what are we defining i mean the certainly National Pride patriotism flag empathy meant is our destiny those things were never discussed in terms im just sad tickled to make gratian immigration was thought to be a contributing factor to that kind of nationalism and now its discussed increasingly discussed as an undermining factor for the well off when she lived in fear only recently right all half of the 20th century immigration was seen as potentially dangerous and new immigrants were in the early 20th century seen with suspicion myth with suspicion. Including jewish immigrants and so this ideology that distinctions among immigrants are not legitimate is new not its relatively new so you can view trumps policies here as a reaction to sensually a fairly new policy new ideology speaking about nationalism in theyre trying to censure of the jews god the historic chance to build their own. Nation state and i think there. You know after to try their hand at nationalism is increasingly looking like an iron fist of its neighbors thats my personal opinion the you dont have to agree with that but i wonder if. How it ties to the thesis of your book when the whole world is converting a cold audience as you say into america and isnt arent jews or at least some jews in israel doing the opposite of course there was the point of creating the state of israel. Just its perhaps not everyone but more and more. Societies ethnic groups moving to a word when theyre in it becoming in some ways. More jewish jews were or some jews zionists. Were trying to become what i call. By returning to the land. Becoming farmers having their own nation state. In the soil before the jewish century you made quite a splash with your work on they saw it after nick and National Policies challenging. At the time the common american view of the u. S. S. R. Was a prisoner of nations i think you. Actually show the soviets or the early the early soviets at least celebrated and encouraged diversity for a very pragmatic and very ideological reason i wonder what is the main difference between how the us ceasar and the United States at that time approached the issue of diversity as you say the sort of units promoted yes nick particularism created the federation of its nuclear defined republics. And in the United States the ideal is the milking point ideology reigned Supreme Leader on it was. Culturalism. Affirmative action. And other policies. Were developed that were quite similar to what was being done in the soviet union you mentioned a couple of the door images that matter for us that americans use to describe their. National policy of 1st the melting pot most recently its mistake you used the matter for all of communal apartment for the soviet approach of communal apartment with private rooms and shared bathroom and shared kitchen. Does it still apply to more than day russia is that how russia deals read the athletic and National Question the world is not quite over the russia is different from all the other post communist nations. In that it is multinational state there are a ministry to the units within the Russian Federation that of that are defined its unlikely. And it least in the official rick it is common to talk about the peoples of russia not just the people of russia this is quite different from as i said all the other post communist states which are. Ideologically mono yes think so russia is peculiar but of course its no longer engaged in tense promotion of yes nick difference. Now when i was thinking about the matter for is the best i could come up with was a Community Garden the way its practiced in urban areas where your given the plot of land to cultivate and i like it because both for the soviet union and for the modern day russia this tie between territory and the thinnest city is very important of course people can move around even though social mobility in russia is much lower than in many other western countries but this notion of firsts mall homeland within a larger country is still very important why do you think the russians a saw attached to this into a linkage between the city and territory because i mean one would argue that in in this day and age you know we are all citizens of the world but the russians are still are talking about russians being different too i mean in some ways most nationalism traditional. Well tribalism is the book being attached to your own land right its all over traditional myths. Its in the book of exodus and in the bible right you do you there is a part in this Promised Land but what is different of course is that todays russia has inherited from the soviet Union Previous this thing. Will form and. Institutionalized its nuclear defined units and its obviously politically on the way to miss with those right as we can easily imagine a sinking of the north caucuses tatarstan the bush court to stun you kooky and so on and so forth the door buttes we would be. Would not be politically wise to try to deprive those areas of the of their status so i dont think that it is a particular attachment to the principle i think its just political realism that this is these breeds used units. And so one has to do with now you mentioned the word multiculturalism and. The way russia the russians really dislike the idea of the way its practice in there was theres a lot of free to killing over you know about you know bring large numbers of people from faraway lands settling down and gallows and i mean to some extent its its funny that the russians would take an issue with that because russia now there was a mourner make or monocultural state why do you think the russians what is it do you think in the western notion of malta culturalism that im settles the russians so much you find distin you correctly youre referring to various. Forms of ethnic representation well racial reshow quotas or the whole family even racial quotas but nation building i mean respecting diversity but also creating these sounds of that to be our one nation do you russia and the was dealing with it in the same way im not sure to because it depends on what you mean again because certainly on the one hand is nick nationalism is applied to the dominant group is increasing we do with that in mind in the west. Multiculturalism is the policy of promoting minority groups in their cultures is very important. In russia in some ways multiculturalism is there was a big part of the soviet soviet experience. And im not sure because i mean ive certainly heard people read a cue liston multiculturalism but if they mean by that artificial quotas and so on you know for finance against me you talk recy. Is there what you mean well i i think most people take an issue with bringing a lot of with down control migration essentially bring a lot of outsiders into europe but thats not multiculturalism i mean there is obviously in that ive heard all sorts of criticism here. Of. Until americans ball thats generally inviting immigrants and that is counterproductive and dangerous and i think that theyre the difference so times are just you know the multiculturalism this is just the one form i wouldnt i dont think that would be referred to mostly in the west is multiculturalism its related to multiculturalism is that we are expected to respect. Different cultures and consider them. Equal. Or is on our own or allowed it and but its no longer legitimate. To clean primacy for your for the host line you need to have culture in russia its still perfectly ok and so i think a lot of russians see contemporary western policy is is suicidal. Counterproductive. And and so on so if thats what you mean by multicultural is there is definitely a difference that i can see. And that these i think related to the 2 something that you mentioned before the assumption that different ethnic groups including the dominant ones have their legitimate claims have their territory have their cultural. Cultural values treasures whatnot and theyre expected to defend and so what is happening in the west is a form of render a form of well. Thank you for eliminating that for us we have to leave it there i appreciate your coming over to. Keep this conversation going in our social media pages for me and the. Same place same time while the part. Of. Argentina loving it this country is phantasmagorical the people are extraordinary the government and the central bank maybe not so much. More detail. In the troubled 19 seventies a group of killers rampage through parts of Northern Ireland that was coordinated loyalist attacks particularly the population. Are forced to flee their homes and what was striking to put these attacks was a p. R. You see the Police Actually took part in the attacks so instead of presenting they were active participants in the burning of the streets in belfast. More than a 100 innocent civilians were. Seniors and we found out more i was surprised about the extent. To which the solution was involved in some of those cases the killers would lead to be named. I think it went to do very very top i think it is. The water where politicians do. Give the go ahead. Article one is adopting. Us Democrats Use their highest majority to impeach donald trump he will now go on trial in the republican held a senate the us president seems. This is really feel like were being impeached i come u. S. Tech giant being sued for allegedly abetting in the deaths of children in coal mines in congo parents of the children say the companies had all the means to prevent that and a school in the u. K. Is under fire after children were given a homework assignment on the munched arena bombing in which they had to reflect on why the terrorists