Sea and if you dont rescue them in these situations a lot of people have died but im sure you know that there are people crossing through a ban on just libyans and their knowledge just people fleeing from war persecution there 1200000000 of People Living in africa many of them in abject poverty and im sure not many of them where would be able to make that crossing but many. I would like to do that thing i mean its. I think its ultimately a question of about borders but about the limits do you think the humanitarian responsibility has to be balanced against other considerations economic social political and others i think we have to be very careful not to judge too much numbers because as a matter of fact if you take for instance now the situation we have a very limited of moment of people who are even trying to cross and if you leave these people dying because of political reasons and theres no other reason to say it is just for political interests that people are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea we have the capacity to doing something we can save all of them and were just not doing it so its just. Negligence of humans tyrion and you main responsibility if you just look around you see that we have a very serious issue around Climate Change for instance more and more people cannot sustain their living anymore theyre moving but usually people are moving in the regions from where the originate so there is very limited amount of people who are anyway go through. Lets say the european. Border us let me play devils advocate because i mean as a doctor you have to think not only about you know treating a person in the moment you have to think about how what youre doing right now will affect his body in a way or a year from now politicians and Decision Makers have to think about those things as well dont they and they have to take Political Considerations in mind and you know that they migrate migratory issue is a Major Political issue in europe arent you concerned that if europe does whats right by you it may actually empower forces and parties that are even more antithetical to the kind of humanitarianism that you champion. No i think actually what were trying to do is defend what we call the humanitarian space so the area where we can still work without any political consideration just based on the human needs of the people so alleviating suffering and trying to prevent people from dying its a very simple thing were doing but its very complicated and a lot of people dont like it because of Political Considerations but for me as a doctor its a very clear statement im here to safe peoples lives i dont care who it is and why he is in this position he is now if you should buy a gun i dont care whos gun that was but i have to care for this and this is a specific responsibility of a doctor you to care all for that but the politicians operate in a different environment and they do you have to think about the number of people they can help and dont share expect that kind of forward thinking from the Decision Makers i think if youre we have basic values and we should try to defend them as much as a person are if you know what you know rights and if it if youre toward human rights then we have to be very serious about it we have to defend human rights because theyre at stake at this very moment we have to defend human deter in this as such we have to defend the International Humanitarian law and we have to defend humanity so if you talk about well if we are talking potentially about 1200000000 of people are even you know they half of that would want to move to the european continent i dont very much that so many people want to leave a lot of people who are going to be pushed all the places where theyre leaving but usually if you just look at it theyre staying in the regions where they know how to survive somehow and where they have some kind of connections so very few people are actually making it this far and we also have to consider them one of the reasons so if you talk about long term lets Say Solutions then we have to find ways that people are having a decent life that they can have a life in dignity and also sustain their family life pleasant. Well its a thing like that will take decades to bring about and its a question of whether you can actually do that i mean there are there and there has been a lot of talk in the European Union in investing in those areas to indeed stem the flow off and on make migrants but. So far the e. U. Hasnt done that much that merican are not doing that as well. Do you think there will ever be enough resources enough political will to invest in africa to such an extent as youre advocating you know it is it is a big question i mean we are living in a very unfair world mom percent of the worlds population has as much welts accumulated as the other 1009 percent of those who are now is this going to change im not sure i have no idea if my personal idea about it but as an organization we are trying to defend just what we think is the right thing so that means in the 1st place make sure that people are not suffering according to political decisions that they are not suffering according to conflicts and but we can just prevent them from dying its implicit now i know that you personally took part in rescue missions in the mediterranean a your house set up an organization that was dealing with it in a. Social or personal capacity and the question i have for you do you think ordinary people can still make and that often impact when that governments are not collaborating or i think in your case when theyre creating deliberately creating legal hurdles as an individual i think very much i have to do what i think is right to defend my values if to defend my principles and if i feel the state is not doing it or quoting to what i think is the right thing then have to stand up and say. Its not good enough and as a medic of course i have to say well if you dont respect medical ethics and i have to also stand up and if as a humanitarian feel that the next to me is not respected and treated in the dignified way then i have to also stand in this regard so yes we have to do it despite that it is may be a very long term fight and we are not necessarily winning it always while not only not waning but i think a number of states are creating. Deliberate obstacles in a way of here doing that correct me if im wrong but i think that wessel that you used to operate is now. Detained or arrested the in italy you had to change your flag jurisdiction a from the netherlands to germany because the netherlands didnt really want to do anything with you why do you think the resistance to what youre trying to do is so broad based because if it was just you know italy on waltz and people would understand i mean politically they would understand why that would be the reason but then that alliance i mean yeah it is because some there is a kind of push. Towards lets say disrespect of. Human rights and the values we are usually defending so in this regard its not only an issue of italy its not only an issue of Turkey Greece who ever youre talking about its an european issue as such the netherlands are part of this consorts and somehow and they make it very very difficult for seawitch in this case to maintain its flag and the end of the shift to german flag is maybe a right move so that we can as this German Organization see which can maybe address the responsibility rather to the government where they have very close to and is going to make a big difference who knows we dont know but there was no possibility to maintain the flag and we also have to say other states are on the. The impression some on the populist movement is very strong and this is why we have to fight back and try to really stand up for the human values but even though when you had an ability to operate here ship here is still had to play this cat and mouse game with the authorities because many countries for refusing entry and even the when they were allowing it was always as a kind of exception rather than a policy this crisis is almost 5 years old why do you think the ear still hasnt come up with a policy i mean whatever it is it will be a conservative policy but why do you think its still. Being dealt on and one off basis i think as i said before this is the right Wing Populist Movement who is trying to also be very vocal and so it is on the political side people are trying to take all these lets say possible voters into account and on the other hand we also see that in the Eastern European part its not very well lets say accepted that they also have to take a certain share of this supposed burden so from our perspective it is a political crisis rather than a migration crisis of course but theyre not havent been able yet to sort of the political issues they think there ever will come up with a policy for that. I have no idea but were definitely not going to give it up even if they make it more difficult were not accepting that people are drawing only because of political interests and were going to fight as much as we can ok well frank we have to take a break are you now but we will be back in just few moments. When the ballots came in 2008 although theres a lot of money printing going on people said well wheres the inflation the government says theres no inflation you know and then a lot of people say well actually health care and education are skyrocketing in value you dont count those and thats why youre misreading inflation and this has been going on for years. Suggests. We found it we found the missing inflation. I wouldnt. Pick i could. Not. Want to. You love who you know not. To make good to see because the ones who. Do have the kook on the scene do it in the not as you. Know most of. The new and. Much of this in this food out in 92 from the. Higher commodity tied to use in. I just. Learned that. One of the media has on the net. Is youll be a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation in the community. Are you going the right way or are you being led. To. What is true whats his face. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or remain in the shallows. Welcome back to worlds apart with frank turner a board member of dr spin al border frank just before the break we were talking about libya used to be not so long ago a relatively prosperous country a very friendly country towards migrants which. Almost all were tire was turned into one big slave market and i know the humanitarian workers dont like to talk about politics but since you already. Have expressed your criticism of the e. U. Policy i wonder why we almost never hear from organizations or from people like yourself any criticism of what Barack Obama DavidCameron Nicolas sarkozy and others did to libya because. Nobody really talks about the the core issue here that country for all its deficiencies used to be. A relatively ok country and that problem that we are discussing right now didnt exist to such an extent why do we never address the the core issue that created all that suffering well as a matter of fact its not our business but we are a year and 3 of very clear we in all the conflicts where we are working all the areas we are working we have we taking a neutral position if you want to address lets say political issues you can do it only where you are not risking it on the political issue and insurance are obama is not in power anymore he is a former president s wife cant just his say that what he did to leave here was a crime it wasnt right because its not our lets say expertise its not the humanitarians who have to say what the reasons were for a conflict situation and what were just there in because there is a political. Crisis at this very moment but its nothing to do with the policies behind it ever address the needs of the people if they are multiplied to such an extent because we live in a world that has the historically highest number of refugees and people in need can you ever how them all of them as a doctor if you dont address the political issues that are of the core all of the problem and if there are not even political at this point there historic you need to understand why decisions are good and what decisions are not good in terms of multiplying all limiting human suffering youre right if you take it from the. General analyze and a little point of view but what were doing is just trying to be there when crisis are happening so we are not looking at the causes of the crisis in the 1st place but of the consequences so we try to really be there as doctors to make sure that people are not suffering too much and where we can save lives we want to save lives im a bit biased im sure i am but i think that a reluctance to. Size was a little bit less pronounced in the case of other governments im specifically talking about the Syrian Government and the russian government as they were operating in syria and i have a question specifically on Doctors Without Borders policy there because they are going to zation made a decision not to disclose its location is in a rabble how terrorists medical facilities and yet at the same time it did allow itself to criticize those governments for supposedly deliberately targeting medical facilities do you think thats a fair or even consistent position well in general we have to be clear we see that over the past years more and more programs are cured due to the disrespect of International Human turning law which they do but in the situation of warfare in the situation of conflict those who are really trying to support of the victims of this situation need to be protected and the opposite is happening at this very moment its in yemen a situation thats if we saw this in so sudan in iraq we saw this in several places around the world and this is a big concern for us in syria toughened as well so to this extent its understandable that at some point where usually you think that protection will happen because Everybody Knows where you work it may become really a problem because also if youre targeted then the population may not show up any more despite the medical needs the Geneva Conventions apply noncombatants to release the locations of medical facilities there only considered to be medical facilities if the combatants know where they are in such a context and especially in the syrian context im sure you know that there was nothing sacred there nothing off limits any pretext especially a humanitarian projects was used to malign the opponent in such a context dont you think that your organization had an obligation to your staff and to the rest of the worlds to play by the rules. By the rules in this case i mean the Geneva Conventions that put an obligation on the to disclose those facilities specifically it to protect the people and the doctors well as i said the our experience with the opus its usually what happened in a lot of these places were that there was deliberate targeting of the facilities as such whatever was behind that used obviously the knowledge about the Health Facilities to somehow attack the big 6 services of people to create fear to bring to create really suffering of the populations and that is something we of course also have to put into on the scale and in this regard. Yes youre right we are playing to the Geneva Conventions we are often referring to them and we are also referring to International Humans arent law but when it starts to really become an issue of security of all patients and own stuff then you have to make certain considerations that that is unclear if you wasnt sure that because even without disclosing the locations of your medical facilities and rebel held areas they were attacked they were the doctors and patients kilkenny had that and blame the belligerence for targeting you deliberately because you obviously didnt let them know where where they should not strike well in general if it is we are respecting the Geneva Convention in all. Its possibilities so in this regard of course it is one of the basic means where we can operate and how we can operate and of course if its well known where we are but it is a deliberate targeting if you know that the hospital is getting even tight even without you formally notifying the other side where you are in in general terms were doing it. In all the places where its possible but they didnt wasnt the case in the many rebel held areas in syria. As i mentioned before because there was very serious considerations why the risk was much higher i dont want to get into the argument but your position now is that we are not we dont have to notify them to protect our staff but at the same time Everybody Knows where we are sorry they strike us its their fault now we have to be very clear what is the reason and what is a consequence the reason is that there is no respect for what is usually the Geneva Convention it was an International Humanitarian law and as a consequence of that you may have to make decisions which are not. Good ones because usually you want exactly the opposite but if you feel that what youre doing is going to cause more serious threats to the people youre working with and the patience then you may have to take different decisions i know that youve been sounding the alarm about they have broken off International Humanitarian protections not only in syria but they pretty much everywhere around the world what are the main factors contributing to that well its in all the cases its political lets say thinking behind that so in this regard it is from our perspective yes. Just to go warfare idea strategy somehow to make sure that people who are supposedly in areas where where you want to have influence but theyre really getting the troubles that also basic services are not function of anymore but is. Its a very very strategic way of looking into or using hospitals ambulances as deliberate targeting targets for from military attacks or using them as a warfare tactic because i think one of the most notable cases of fusing medical professionals for a. Geo political military again was a record of the thing in pakistan the one they say i designed its own suppose that a medical operation to hunt for Osama Bin Laden and i know the vaccination activist afterwards in pakistan who were killed but i wonder if the if the damage is far more broad based because. I think in many war zones that i worked in there was a perception that if any International Humanitarian organizations arrogance nation comes in if me serve as a cover for. Either the americans or asama some of the. Other powers that are trying to. Do something against the powers in that land do you encounter that and the feel that you as a doctor. Ah perceived as somebody who maybe may have some other job to do yeah as a matter of fact we always have to talk with everybody explain exactly what were doing how were doing and why we are doing it and this is a basic lets say condition of work so in this reality it is awful but theres a disrespect in some respects and you mentioned the killing of Osama Bin Laden and it was the use of an amp use an absolute abuse of the lets say the humanitarian cause a medical cost also and we were very straight in our statements there after and as a consequence we also had. To be even more explicit in explaining all in all the context where we are what were doing how were doing things and still were seeing that in some of the places a lot of mistrust according to the top and now we have only a few minutes left and i do want to ask you about the ball epidemic and the damage in africa in this case in the democratic republic of congo a few months ago the World Health Organization and als that the current outbreak represents a Public Health emergency off International Concern why do you our viewers in russia and germany and the United States have to worry about that and do they have to worry about that well as a as a matter of fact we have to go a little bit back into the history of nobody was really very much interested in tour. Around this disease and it happened every now and then and it seemed to be and kind of it to make situation since long and Doctors Without Borders one of the few medical organization has been engaged since long and and 2 dozen 15 we had a big outbreak which was west african related and it only got into a real concern of the west somehow. When there was supposedly potential but it could spread to with europe to whats the us and it was a very late wake up call in this regard and. Now well we see the consequences of that now its quick to respond that we have from go possibilities we havent had at this time as we have possibilities to vaccinate nowadays people but still it is by far not what we what would be needed and the proper response i know that during the previous outbreak you were in. Treating people do you plan of going back to africa at the moment im not planning for them because. Im just a board member of a mess of this very moment and working in my private home town so i have very limited time capacities but it may be that some time but im going back into a medical mission with some so and frank whatever you do stay safe thank you very much for spending some time with that thanks to encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to syria again same place same time here on the part. Of. Facebook and google started with a great idea and great ideals unfortunately it was also a very dark so. They are constructing a profile of you and that profile is real its detailed and it never goes away turns out that google is manipulating your opinions from the very 1st character that you type into the search bar it will. Always favor one dog food over another one comparative Shopping Service over another and one candidate over another they can suppress certain types of results deiced on what they think you should be see if they have this kind of power then democracy is an illusion the free and Fair Election doesnt exist the more rope we give them the sooner were all pain. Is youll be d. A reflection of reality. In the world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Tyson nation whole community. Are you going the right way or are you being led so. Direct. What is truth what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or a mate in the shallows. Each simulating civilization would be able to run using a tiny fraction of its resources. Hundreds of thousands millions of runs through all of Human History almost all. Beings with our kinds of experiences with them to simulate that once. Known simulated ones and conditional that are good we should think fearful of that one of the simulated ones. Russia exposed 2 german diplomats in a mere response to berlin amid a spat over a murder probe. Also this hour russia could be put on the u. S. List of state sponsors of terrorism and im very new bill making its way through congress. And time magazines person of think here in 2019 as products we take a closer look at the 16 year old Climate Change activists who some see as a hero and inspiration fathers brand her an alarmist and a hypocrite