Enlargement actually preserve a chance for improving this relationship where is the continuous expansion i would presume would have. Jeopardize this relationship even more. Yes it would relationship even more in. Extension or the logic. Is officially called in the European Union would continue i doubt because i think that the era of. Growth of the European Union is over we see the 1st ever example of a country. Leaving the European Union the whole atmosphere is completely different than we remember from 1090 s. Or early this century when extension of the European Union was seen as an absolute. Development inevitable development and one of the most prolific and. Colorful politicians federalist politicians in europe. Former a belgian Prime Minister give a host he repeatedly called european integration a bicycle you cannot stall you should move on you should move forward otherwise you will you will lose something and now we see that this movement is over now in your piece you suggest that the e. U. Will spend the next couple of years or who knows exactly how many years focusing on its internal issues so its rather a Home Improvement rather than a home expansion project and here in russia we have made any jokes about home repairs how arduous it is how it usually takes much more time money and skill than initially in the visit in case of the e. U. How big is the challenge its around a challenge is very big the challenge is very complicated and drugs have played a very interesting role in the whole debate on the one hand it demonstrated the European Union has a big problem. The 1st country is about to leave. At the same time it demonstrated to all Member States how terrible it is and how actually meaning meaningfulness it is to try to destroy the ties which have been established. Centuries and. Interestingly those skeptic forces in. France or belgium where ever they dropped the slogan of this mantling the European Union and that was very. Nice to do i think that for that transformation will be very complicated by the end of the European Union will arrive to the new quality and we will see a new another union we dont know yet which one that when somebody renovate their home it inevitably f. X. The neighbors you hear the sound you see the masses sometimes neighborly relations get sour and how do you think this round of ation is going to a fag the neighbors especially those who once hoped to move in with the e. U. For songs i think sounds. Become. Out. With a lot of sounds from the European Union at the peak of its euphoria and extension well we still are hearing accusations that its russia that is ultimately on demining be sure. To hear it from the European Union. Likewise from the United States but the main thing which all of us here in russia understand because we have same experience its very tempting to blame anybody else your own fault. And in this concert in the rush to do it but we see exactly the phenomenon in the west especially in the European Union but i think its it if its a new stage because. For quite a long time the european x. Was in the in the state of denial they tried to say that everything is ok there are there are some problems but mainly those are produced by outside forces now they finally concluded that shot something should be done in fact heard you make a very interesting point to add that for the 1st time since the collapse of the soviet union the countries between russia and the e. U. Seizing to be the. Prime geo political real estate sometimes inflated values that theyre finally alive to that own devices do you think that realisation has already started to sink in do you see any change in how those countries in between there are relating to both russia and the e. U. Its sort of difficult process because for those socalled in between countries i think is a terrible name by the way that this has been their geopolitical. Extremely discriminating. Those countries most of them they got used to live in in in environments what did perceive themselves as very juicy after office and from the beginning from 1090 s. It was consciously or unconsciously this willingness to play games between those who. Russia against the e. U. And russia gives the or maybe not. But the. Entity has to get some benefits out of them. And we see results unfortunately what happened in ukraine 5 years ago. On board just continue to happen now its still logic stand brought up though this is psychology of course this is a problem for both russia and the European Union as well and i remember personally my multiple conversations with the european friends and american friends in 1900 specially into silence when i tried to explain to them that. Soviet union lost the cold war and the former warsaw pact states where. It was inevitable that they would go to nato or to juge western alliance but dont touch ukraine because ukraine is something completely different for russia and percy they never never bought my arguments in that same article that aired referenced earlier reach was published in july you also predicted that from now on ukraine will be encouraged to develop a less confrontational relationship with russia and well you know next week the russian and the ukrainian president s for the 1st time will meet in person under the watchful eyes of the french and german counterparts how significant is that. It is pretty significant because this is the 1st meeting in this socalled normandy 4 months since october going to 16 so its quite quite the while and i personally have no doubts the. President really wants to move forward he wants to he was elected because of public demand for peace and normalization with russia but this is a Positive Side negative side since july. July when he was elected and. The parliament was in place. He got credit and he got enormous. He got a historic mandate. Sad that he has not been skillful enough to use and my question to you is you know some people could argue that meeting with putin is already a pretty bold step for the ukrainian leader what else could he have done that hes not doing to move things forward in a meeting which is rather or rather a gift from fortune to him because. You know hes facing a lot of political pressure from ukraine and extreme ride that not to do that i mean that there hes also under pretty difficult political hes under extremely difficult political conditions and. Shes struggling. Opponents inside the country and opponents outside the country and now he is in the absolute that. Position to be to say bargaining chip in domestic infighting in the United States but i mean speaking about his own domestic politics what else could he have done to fulfill demanded this unique mandate that you mentioned i dont think he could do much. Underline of. Us in this process yet what he had to do and what he from my point of view so far failed to do to establish a war kink mechanism how to govern the country as we mentioned a couple of minutes ago she got the historic moment that no one before nor the president had such a strong support from population and the parliament and then this in this regard if. A more skillful a more experienced politician would be in his place maybe he would the chief more unfortunately from my point of view is still in the position of playing the role of a president which he did before he became politician rather than to be a real president who is in charge of the country well mr okeefe we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. In this community there are people who believe that its ok. Its really hard there are no jobs and you see their kids. And as a parent. I can come up with after the argument theres a lot of conflict in the game between the cost of the conflict i would say. This one. Is could cost the state of california alone to make 6000000000. 00 a year of the prison complex just to get some point in your life where. You dont care. Anything. And were going to fulfill the repeated promises apologise to the people and promises that you know weve all bots the future. You. Pretty. Much. Now you want to work. Known. For the. Coming coming. Welcome back to worlds apart to be a further look piano fanatic turn in chief off russia in Global Affairs magazine mr mccann ive just before the break we started talking about these december 9th meeting in france which just like the hall normandy format was designed to address specifically the conflict in Eastern Ukraine as. Untangled as that issue is can it be tackled without reassessing at least in part the whole e. U. Russia ukraine conundrum and by that i mean economic ties between russia and ukraine. Publicly warm but privately cold and distant relationship between ukraine and the e. U. The nature of the mutual commitments etc all these host of issues that precipitated the conflict in the 1st place. Thats very difficult because on the one hand you write. Whole ukrainian disaster. Of product of the relationship between russia. And the same to. The stage who are now. You cannot start with global. And say ok lets discuss. And then the university can just start with the e. U. For example could start with having an honest conversation about the ukraine and discuss whether ukraine will ever be part of the e. U. What ukraine is getting from the Association Agreement whether ukraine once you have some sort of economic relationship with russia i mean we dont need to start big i mean those are issues that directly affect the lives of everyday people yeah you know it would be great unfortunately in this particular case im afraid that no one. Those involved. Wants to be 100 percent. Honest that that was the. From the beginning it was based on very sort of enormous lie from all sides and to start with this. Chance to undermine everything why. Very formal. Described in the documents because this is a way to. Formalize steps which should be done and to start to. Drive to go. To particular can lead to a bigger solution in the future. For ukraine. Agreement. Was an agreement to stop war it was a very big war which ukraine was about to lose and they signed this agreement which from. Thats argument that they dont have to fulfill it because it was signed under duress. Argument not to fulfill them and president poroshenko. And. Ukraine have no choice but that was a product of very complicated circumstances now on the one hand sometimes it looks like a deadlock in the same time why all sides stick to the there is no other framework to go if. Agreement form then nothing else is left and that risk for a new war it will be one time now the russian ukrainian relationship has 2. Major components economic and security i want to start with economic and im sure you would agree with me that in addition to solving the conflict in this to me Ukraine Russia and ukraine now has a much more accurate. Dispute to settle im talking about the expiration of the gas transit contract the contract for transiting russian gas to the European Union and what i find historically ironic that ukraine now after arguing for you. Here is that russia is using gas as a geopolitical wap and against it it is now insisting on the long term called contract with moscow which moscow is trying to evade do you think the 2 will be able to meet each other halfway yes i think so. Fortunately or unfortunately. So we have trouble with. The gas field since. 2910 years ago it was a. Disruption of the European Union. Contract which is expiring now was signed at the moment. But they will sign it because they know after. It will be. Launched. A russian position will be much much stronger and ukraine will be not in the position to dictate now i dont know if you would agree with that but i think one Silver Lining in this genuinely awful russian ukrainian relationship is that the crayons over the last 44. 00 or 5 years have stopped taking russia and the economic benefits that they derive from being graphically close to russia for granted and we have to discuss that being part of the. Gas transit cop a contract is one indication of that is there any chance that these economic promises and this whole conflict erupted into what it is today from these economic promises the promises that are alive is it possible that their relationship could ultimately be patched up by the economic considerations as well that the ukrainians will see the pragmatism of having some sort of a very relationship with russia or do you think we have long been pals that im rather skeptical. Of course we see how strong ties are and where because after 5 years of mutual rejection of a very very clear and. Aggressive. Government to cut all ties to russia economic ties with russia. Does matter. Consequences didnt matter and russia of course russia. Suffered a lot from disruption of. Economic relationship but this by that we see that trade is growing so extremely strong nature a lot of go relationships and the same time you know for a very long. I cannot imagine any russian government to. A launch pad over konami time beyond. That you wrote recently that russia is now entering into the real post imperial stage in which it can finally a rest assured that ukraine georgia moldova i will not be part of the e. U. And nato for the foreseeable future if the kremlin is indeed as sure of that as you believe why it is sticking to its guns and by that i mean insisting very have early on the autonomy of donetsk and lugansk as as a guarantee you that thats not going to happen. Ukraine is a very special case it was from the beginning. There is no other territory no other country which would be that there are 2 russian minds and hearts as ukraine for a minute just about minds and hearts or is it ultimately about security and security is perception as well if you perceive. Certain territory. Highly vitally important for you then of course you extrapolate from that also Security Fears and ukraine. Is right but this is a fact of alive what we tried to explain. Why do you think there is the there is still this insistence on the former path is it just the then the willingness to recognize your own mistakes because if for example i ve or i made it would tell russia in some formal matter that this is not going to happen that would solve a lot of issues connected to ukraine i mean its understandable how difficult it is for president but you know nato and the e. U. Could do part of the difficult job for him no there will never see. The russia bought. Because its. Our. Alliances or blocs based on certain political values and perceptions. The idea that any country has the right to choose alliances was one of the fundamental i mean look what happened with this idea he in the case of holding me and the infamous adani rich even changed i mean the like you know a hypo course is another pillar of Political Action in the west. In. The sad story by by. Or you should criteria and so on that will continue indefinitely the same with ukraine at the same time no one ever. For almost a ukraine membership especially in the e. U. The only statement i can remember that was made by mr younker the former head of European Commission a couple of years ago when he said that for next. To 5 years ukraine cannot expect to join the European Union for at least 25 years so in this regard what ukrainians created for themselves is imagination and theres the problem i want to ask you about made today alliance is celebrating 70th anniversary this week and i think its fair to say that just like in case with the e. U. It is going through a period of understanding what it is what it stands for what its future is there are lots of internal disagreements there we just witnessed very interesting interaction between in fresno across on and president tron but their formal alliance the official line remains the same russia is the existential threat do you think any amount of internal disagreements can undo that. Because. They have not just stayed but this stake cannot leave portugal turkey and what. Do they have. Their security about threats to no one they have a completely different context and situation and in this. In the autumn and to keep the airlines at least formally going you need something which. All members. To point out he was russia wrong to take crimea yes. Russia is a. And thats. I heard you say even before that this means russias threat is very convenient very expedient both to the e. U. And to nato for canalize ing and reframing internal disagreements and. You know i think its also ironic that they would find that own internal problems more threatening last possible to meet down the russia threat to some extent russias threat is much less threatening but i also heard you say that at this point the e. U. Actually needs russia. To increase its room from when you were with the United States possibly for many other issues as well dont you think that sooner or later these nesat city for cooperation with russia will prevail. But again im not very much optimistic the only person in the European Union who has a vision which is not strong but vision is present. And he understands that. Because he he believes that france needs a relationship with russia to strengthen its positions in the unite in the European Union and the United States. But at the same time. Second european politicians to discuss to. Realize how we get they are themselves. And unfortunately. For russia they are afraid of russia so much that the media this stop the sinkhole to keep ties with the United States either the same time the more this. We could have also discussed what is really the United States because for all their disagreements both present a chronon president trump. Nato and both on the way open to developing a relationship with russia but mr know we have to leave it for some other time because our time is up thank you very much for coming in. I encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team here on same place same time on worlds apart. Thinking of. The wall. Reaching out in freedom anywhere near. 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