Mean by that you know it is not a day that hes agree with the secretary general is that i say that nato always always adapting you know it has been adapting since the end though to cold war you know and so it continues to adopt and of course it is true that the way to that kind of sadat is changing and chinas rise then made to last what up so the secular now is rising his old times if you like. What peace has nato actually kept in its 70 years i mean right at the beginning there was the killing of 20 percent of the population of north korea by nature nations there was a cause vietnam 4000000 dead tens of millions have been killed or wounded or displaced because nato nations attacked iraq has nato ever helped peace whoa you know i dont think that you ask me the right question because. Youre right in terms of the people who had that in those bloody walsall but i dont think that you can blame a toehold that you know as a matter of fact nato is never been in vietnam in order to play the dimension meter nationals is a different frame you know we are speaking about nato as an organization i made was what i got as actual as it is mainly a piece if you will remember history you know even the cold war was called the cold war because there was peace of the old. No peace for a lot of the nations in the developing world arguably well then why do you think french president macro calls nato brain dead well i feel that he does so all 1st of all because it will leave you no liquid world were living in. A less structured wall that befall and i think that missy mccrone the flash president is thinking about you know a new more powerful role European Defense dimension you know knowing that respect he figs probably that nato should give wayne a name in his in the subtle signs to a new European Union or his from the European Union perhaps led by france in a way and you think that was being signaled by install timber when he said the United States is going to cut funding for nato and that funding is going to be made up by chancellor merkel of germany while youre old that is the discussion about if american president you know his views about nato but you know in the end you know if you look at facts malden wanted to say here and there in various capitals i see it all around us table again is a shot i dont know if you agree with me you know i dont think many things happen in a major by the way and as far as i know even in United States that have been recent polls and there is a large majority of populations supporting nato on in spite of all that so when nato member turkey. Takes russian s. 400. 00 Missile Defense systems and accuses. Outside forces perhaps nato countries of backing elements in Northern Syria attacking turkey you think nato is still a stable organization well it depends how you put the question you know because the fact that turkey is acting it lets play in a special way because certainly the fact of buying the russian equipment is very unusual i think at the 1st time that the nato counted does it in seoul in such a way i dont think it is a very good thing to do on the other hand needle you know is an alliance you know is an alliance and it doesnt say exactly what every country has to do so we may disapprove of Turkish Foreign policy but i dont think that is for nato to tell the turks what they have to do i mean in specific terms when Turkey Threatens to send isis die as fighters to. The factor nato countries if if they dont respond in the way turkey wants nato is still a Strong Alliance while you know but if you think about that in a different way i agree that it is a difficult situation and it is easy to criticize turkey for sithen actions towards so the level of menses syria on the other hand if nato abandon. For this reason i figured that it would add to instability in the middle east instead of adding to stability so if you look at times of you know all submitted in the area i think its better to have turkey you cite that or other than outside nato. You are acting secretary general if you were secretary general today what do you think your reaction would be to intelligence and to announcements from ankara that they were thinking of buying Weapons Systems from moscow well of course being the secretary general of nato i would not be happy about it this is a clear you know anomaly or you dont by being if you are a nato country important they could have been from russia so this is something that you know i think is not. I would say a normal procedure to do all you want to have is not illegal you know all of that but very much they might do it where it will do that in a call those world elements you know i dont know i was surprised as you are surprised by everybody will survive by that decision and what do you make of the fact that beijing and moscow of course continue to claim that a promise was made to moscow that the collapse of the u. S. S. R. Would mean no eastward expansion of nato and yet installed and continues to talk about expansion eastwards well again you know this is a controversy which is going on since a long time in fact you know to do russians are saying that there was a promise by president bush if im not wrong say that data would not expand to the east there is nothing written about it by the way so d its a story that you cant claim to be true or false and you know you know to trust the people who say that or you know to hand you know if you have if you have a country like paul on the like above the country like hungary who want to be called nato members how youll forbid that i mean which grounds you know independent countries after sampling and all you have to accommodate them there has been a process of them that has been going on for some yes and those countries finally reached nato and to follow the fall if im not wrong im not wrong grae wants to join nato right now but a game a lot of countries around the world the International Community as it were. They they may look at the install timber claiming that china is coming closer to us meaning to nature they may claim that that actually is a declaration of intent what do you think he means that china is coming closer to nato. Are well sir you know this is of course very difficult for me to put myself into the shoes or mishears cult of a ghetto i suppose or what he has in mind is that. Probably needs or should create its own idea about china sooner or later because china is such an important country that cannot be ignored and so in that way but this is on a speculation of course that they make in that way chinas issues come to brussels not that we have to go to china i dont think the dentals going to china anyway yes because china says that its in fact major nation bases particularly the nation of the United States that surrounding surrounding it again there does seem a lot of talk though about chinese intentions e. N. Stoltenberg also said we should be aware that chinas investment in Infrastructure Development in africa could pose a threat he appeared to say what do you think it means whether it was what or who we are calling about a very how can i say im direct things you know the fact that china is president africa so far is mainly in peaceful ways you know it is something which is well known so i dont think that nato as a direct interest into that looking back on it while some commentators are saying because macros that nato is brain dead nato is facing problems do you think you actually face. Face the greatest problems when you were acting secretary general of nato just after the beginning of the u. S. British war on iraq when the entire International Community was. Criticizing britain in the United States for their actions in iraq 2 important members of nato well you know at that time as you can recollect a nato had no direct role in iraq so it was through the United States and United Kingdom talking youre out of there perfectly true but nato as such as an organization was never involved and neither director nor im directly so you know to put nato as an aggressor of iraq i think is unfair but at the same time did members at your meetings of nato when you were acting secretary general expressed concern obviously france did not support the invasion and war in iraq oh yes you know i mean in a sort of surface it is true there was a division in the alliance because there were counters who actually present in iraq weve military forces beyond the United States and and u. K. So there were in fact. Disputes and very how can i say very important discussions inside and off Atlantic Council but the decision has never changed at all have been to the syria not to be part of the war many kind of very clear ideas about it. So during his actual luckily if you like that i think is it would do theyre going to hear took a good decision not to be part of the war in iraq you dont seem as concerned with the imminent threats from moscow and beijing is it the function of a secretary general then at a nato meeting to claim that there are outside threats i mean weve had here in london the Royal United Services institute saying britain may need cluster bombs in case it goes to war with russia i told you earlier about un stoltenberg talking about china coming closer to the us is it just something a secretary general has to say to galvanize unity. A nato summit wow you know in a way youre right in a way i mean if secretary general has to galvanize a little bit his own organisation i mean this is you know goes everywhere i think for all going to his actions and i am not are not active duty anymore so i cant really read into the ministers told about but of course i dont think that that is a major dancer today coming from military dangdut i mean coming from russia from china mall that it was in the past but you know this is probably something that you say when you are in a context was an important meeting a member countries when you ask in fact i think member of congress to focus on the International Environment former acting secretary general thank you after the break with nato collude with fascist Eugenics Programs in pursuit of victory in the socalled cold war we speak to the director of an Award Winning new film investigating International Complicity in the fascist crimes against humanity of nato member spain over some all coming up about to have going underground. Trump on hong kong protecting democracy or more meddling in the internal affairs of china also can nato as european members reimagine the alliance and more terror on the streets of london. Mollison america the average income for americans hasnt budged at all in 2030 years because they were neutered from their ability to compete for capital labor has no seat at the table labor has no seat at the central bank labor has been abandoned the jobs have been shipped overseas wall street now gets all the capital they get 100 percent of the capital every dollar printed by the fed goes directly to wall street bypasses labor bypasses way to. Welcome back this week the week of londons nato summit marks 82 years since the secretly nato nation backed bombing a bus alona by fascist leader general Francisco Franco his dictatorship would not only inspire and help catalyze world war 2 but lead to the killing of hundreds of thousands in his native spain a new documentary produced by oscar winning Pedro Almodovar about the legacy of franco including his Eugenics Program and his support from washington is now one spains most prestigious film award it will be on u. K. Channel b. B. C. 4 today and at its heart is an amnesty law nicknamed the pact of forgetting the films co director robert joins me now welcome to going on the ground water let me in the film it is its already won the award its a documentary film award in spain what is the pact or for getting is featured in the silence of office thank you so much for having me the paktia for gathering is a pact that was formed at the end of. Spains dictatorship so spain had dictator franco for 40 years after he died in 1977 an amnesty law was passed and that law not only helped Political Prisoners to have jail who had been fighting for democracy but also include the clause that said political crimes committed by the state during the franco dictatorship would not be prosecuted and that became a bigger impact of forgetting where the crimes that took place during the franco dictatorship to this day have still not been investigated and the gospel has been that its best that the past be forgotten now its stunningly short but there are some vox pops in it of young people in the capital for spain us to talk to its not only the pact of forgetting in terms of the amnesty for those who committed crimes during the British American backed dictatorship of general franco its added in france on education itself when people young people in spain watching this film it may be the 1st time theyre hearing of the crimes that were committed in their country many many people if their families were not in some way touched by the crimes that took place dont know or they think that this is the past this is something from 80 years ago and part of the purpose of the film was to show actually some of the suffering continues there is still families fighting to get more than 114000 bodies out of mass graves there are still people who were tortured as recently as 1975 who know where their torture is live and that torture has never been prosecuted just to be clear that when spain became a democracy because as a member of nato theyre meeting their people in london member of the European Union march in villa one of francos cabinet ministers just easily transition into become. The deputy Prime Minister in a post franco democratic spain and what you see this is a sequence in the film where we look at the transition and you see that in the judiciary in parts of government in the Security Forces there are many different continuity s. Between dictatorship and democracy and if you think of this more generally in terms of Transitional Justice in countries where theres a revolution theres a complete change of government in the case of spain franco died while he was still in power and so his regime had of other of influence in shaping how democracy would be found it now the journey for justice cortical in the film arguably begins in the context of something that happened here the blair government was released general pinochet of chile the ridgeback the chilean dictator why seeking justice for all the 10s of thousands of people dead and the baby stolen in spain starwood pinochet so this is the core principle called universal jurisdiction that says that if the crimes committed and if crimes were committed by a state and those crimes cannot be prosecuted in the place where they took place governments in other countries can prosecute them and ironically it was a spanish judge carphone who pioneered this principle and who indicted pinochet and that led to his detention for 500 days here in london. And because in spain even though they pioneered this work when arthur and tried to prosecute crimes of the franco dictatorship he himself was put on trial the victims and human rights lawyers in spain have had to use the same principle and go to argentina and they found a judge in argentina who would take this case and so its a parallel its the same thing happening in this very moving testimony tell me about maria turner who is one of the stars of the film as it were who. Who was who seeks justice before she she dies in the early days of the spanish civil war reemerge teens mother was taken and was killed with a group of about 27 other people in a small town she was 6 years old and Maria Martine was 6 years old when this happened. And her mothers body was buried in a mass grave by the side of the road and her father dedicated his life to trying to get her mothers body it so and Maria Martine. Took that responsibility and her entire life she wrote letters to the marriage she voted letters to courts she wrote to the king she wrote to everyone she could asking if there was a way that this road could be lifted and this mass grave could be opened. Back up. Again after. It happened. And now. Its been a life it was of life the Armed Struggle for her and now her own daughter continues that now its not just the 10s of thousands of people tortured the 10s of thousands of bodies that lay today in the dairy spain in unmarked graves. There is the allegations of hundreds of thousands of children taken from their parents so mothers were told the children were yes dead yes on giving birth when they were they were given to fascist parents and so going this goes back actually to nazi eugenic fear reads and so there was a spanish psych psychiatrist named antonio but i dont know her and he studied the nazi Eugenics Programs and published books and his work led to the creation of a law in 1941 that actually allowed babies to be taken from republican mothers at the time who were in jail and given to families that were loyal to the regime and whats believed to have happened is. That all over the decades this practice evolved and moved from the politically unfit to the more of the unfits of families that have had true many children or single mother which itself could be seen as political in whichever could a seen as what this girl until the 980 s. So in the film we see the case of maria bueno who gave birth in la linea in south of spain in 1981 and so the idea is and she states powerfully in the film when the dictatorship stops those mechanisms dont just switch off and gathering all this evidence from all across spain for the tiniest villages to the cities that goes on you show different legal stages it gets to a stage where Video Conferencing in an Argentinian Court is all going to start but spain pressures the European Union government. Pressures the argentinian government not to hear the case judge triveni was able later to come to spain and take ted so she traveled around spain and she was able to take testimony from victims and survivors she wants to take testimony from the people who. Who is who has she a subpoena or indicted to give testimony some of the people who are the alleged perpetrators and she has not yet been able to do that. Kind of game you got to show that shes going to be on the board. On any moment as you know everybody putting out a lot of the real knows what little. I know and you. Will be clear in the film that aside from the 1st for justice of all these many people you show pictures of eisenhower of nixon de gaulle trying to explain to the viewer how it came to be that all these nato governments carried on supporting a government that was responsible for alleged eugenics and mass killing its an important moment in the film and almost dana who made the film with me she and i felt strongly that the film needed that context and so if you look at the contents were really trying to communicate is that in the beginning of the film you see franco standing next to hitler and there was a moment when spain was viewed internationally with that association and as the years went by after world war 2 and sort of 20th century geopolitics switched to that cold war stance then spain became important in terms of its position and important as an ally and spain was welcomed into the United Nations even now i think the world by perception when im in the United States i say to an older person what the film is about they say oh i travel to spain in the 1960 s. It didnt seem so bad to me. And then you show them the film and they hear chatto story and they realize that while they were on a beach in spain on a vacation chatter was in the basement of a building being tortured because of his political beliefs or because he was fighting for democracy because in this country known for galvanizing so much support for progressive causes in the thirtys but when youre talking about in the cold war you know that why is it now why the Intelligence Services here would have carried on supporting spain even if perhaps they knew of the torture and killing is that the domino theory they were just up communism. The reason for the vietnam war i cant speak to that specifically but i think if you look around the world i think there are so many dictatorships that were supported by the United States or by other powers and probably for those reasons because unlike say in the United States there probably isnt a big movement to wipe out more native americans or here there isnt a movement away but were indians under the gun under the banner of Winston Churchill in in spain the frankies does are there you interview some of them they they followed really support franco and are against the recent decision by the Spanish Government to exuma franco has bones from that huge monument to him in the cemetery in the film who well its true that in the past year via a far right party with an ultra right party has risen in spain and i think as of now it actually is the 3rd number of seats in the congress and so you see those forces of the ultra right that still exist but i think a lot of the plaintiffs in the case in the film would say that even more than the ultra right its the silence that was agreed to almost universally that is part of what has perpetual. Did this obviously condition its created in the asians well how many people watching your film in spain as i said it won one this award actually after winning the gold 2 months later Public Television in spain spanish Public Television showed the film and more than a 1000000 people saw this film it was a trending topic on twitter that day Prime MinisterPedro Sanchez actually tweeted saying that people should watch the film that night and so this actually a feeling that all the work that the movement has done for 20 years the little grain of sand of the film or work of art can contribute to it continues and is making a difference and i was chatting to one of the characters in your film who still doesnt get justice in this film because although his street is renamed his torturers feel free chatters torture is still free he has never been investigated there are many torturers from that time period who have never been investigated and that search for justice i think is is a great challenge and chatto has really tell the kid his life to continuing to fight for that. Thank you and thats it for the show will be back on wednesday after the Un General Assembly debates how to stand in the largest open air prison camp in the world gaza which of the un claims will be uninhabitable in a matter of months until then gives us residential media dont forget to subscribe to going up against egypt. What politicians do you should. Put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be present and you. Want to be. To going to be close to survival before 3 in the morning cant be good. Im interested always in the water losing our. Place should. Be in the special something we can benefit says its a minute of. Yeah but just a little bit else where. You thought the whole doping in russia things was over forget it. Part 2 of the full meal both are both really accomplished but i sure would have them all still some of the muscles of the. Russian outlets eligibility for the International Competition says it stake this includes events like the Tokyo Olympics and the fee for world cup in qatar if i am in the early as last. Year when you come in you know just as it was 4 years ago in moscow antidoping plavix at the center of the scandal so who tampered with the doping samples database and one does greegor you want you guys have to do with it and you know shes stupid because we start the ball mean it doesnt. Mean that hes a push on the richest he will ship but to expose me on the front of a little bit so the pollution is doing is nothing. Compared to. Britains conservative and labor parties accusing each other of failing to prevent the London Bridge attack as Early Release from prison we put the issue of the dubai. Membership of any terrorist organization should have a life imprisonment tolerate that would resolve them all to mean membership no people no because it wont. Tell me that fattens. Russia and china strengthen their ties by launching a strategic natural gas pipeline double the power of siberia. And u. S. Investigative journalism struggles to survive in the era of big Corporate Media and powerful political plans as a reporter claims Hillary Clinton cut him off when he started investigating hollywood