Misplaced. Far far as. Opposed to for this is misplaced. For far as the calls to far room for time for thoughts of not responsible for fixing it from a group from the to the groom for terms of not responsible for fixing it from a group from the material on the outside of the towers. A new report by human rule on the outside of the tower. A new report by Human Rights Watch says u. S. Sanctions are preventing ordinary iranians from accessing life rights watch says u. S. Sanctions are preventing ordinary iranians from accessing lifesaving medicine. And love them it proves him meets with the hunger saving medicine. And love them it proves him meets with the hungry and Prime Minister viktor irritating western allies on the same day garion Prime Minister viktor orban irritating western allies on the same day hung. Joint makes a statement on ukraine. About the same degree vetoes a joint makes a statement on ukraine. About a friend named andrew fama will be here with you next hour with the latest news from around the world from named andrew famo will be here with you next hour with the latest news from around the world and stay with us for cross talk next here on international. And stay with us well cross talk next here on international. And hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered times Peter Lavelle all across the middle east and beyond the welcome to cross talk where all things are considered times Peter Lavelle all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old way are large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many are few and far in between the elites have answers for todays growing problem are few and far in between the elites have answers for todays growing problems. Starting global and. Starting global instability im joined by my guest james jatra and watch and hes a former u. S. Diplomat and former advisor ability im joined by my guest james jatra and watch and hes a former u. S. Diplomat and former advisor to the u. S. Senate Republican Leadership in plymouth we have he is the answer to the u. S. Senate Republican Leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news web site 21st century wired dot com and in norman we crosschecked you to editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to Joshua Landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university Joshua Landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over braggs it in the u. K. We have the division in the united so the whole division over brags that in the u. K. We have the division in the United States theres a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just states theres a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start to start it off you off here a lot a lot of people say that it is the what the there are for the for the region region what happens then whatever 1st happens that is there today 1st indications and what is an indication that possibly in part with possible happily and probably will happen and the number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua. And the number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua well i think here i think the curator of lebanon is going on as one of the one of these is the 3rd most most indebted countries in the tree world in the world. Salad riyadhs made him a head of the central head band i think sensitive to the fact that if you develop the concrete crash economically a comical hes a protest has to go on monday much much longer but the protests are in many many ways. I think a reflection of tremendous change in the world i think a reflection of tremendous change in the world. And income gap that that is what is your view on him but what i mean when rich rich and poor and and we can see can see that that from from a cook across the world old. You know you know youre europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst its 61 percent of all what but the middle east is the worst its 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering you know if its held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle in the butt but its you know the world is becoming more and more were on beat but its that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq will and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria youre seeing this kind of explosion like egypt syria youre seeing this kind of explosion of real you know theres not enough jobs theres bad Government People are written of real you know theres not enough jobs theres bad Government People are robbing at the top and the public feels like theyre getting a very bad deal robbing at the top and the public feels like theyre getting a very bad deal and theyre up in arms you know patrick i did everything that joshua to said there and theyre up in arms you know patrick i did everything that joshua to said there but we have the. Ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as you know but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people a disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. Under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue. Under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here whats it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is was with governance here whats a good take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead battery you know this is a very different this can explode it is exploding go ahead battery you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because theres so many. Topic to kind of get your head around because theres so many uprising zorra does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think theres a tendency by the meetings or does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think theres a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political called by political commentators by economists and political economist to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what it is to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe whats like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring whats like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have. Print aspects and different characteristics with eat you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for analyzing this youve got post colonial identity issues youve got frameworks for analyzing this youve got post colonial identity issues youve got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from war one youve got neo liberal policies e a liberal middle east all the way back from war one youve got neo liberal policies elian of neo liberal policies you have us meddling which would go into a lot of neo liberal policies you have us meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u. S. Foreign policy this is all the banner of imperialism you could say u. S. Foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist social economic structures and dependency issues. Social economic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import every like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything there. Canonically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and do you thing theyre economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in a country thats just an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in a country thats just one example so its it is very difficult i think hong kong is also one example so its it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because its it wasnt has been mischaracterized by the press because its it wasnt just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with just uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class global city into individualized young middle class Global Citizen yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that is and yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they dont know where to go with this change well the political organ also drives that change drives it but they dont know where to go with this change well the political organizing isnt there the ideas arent there to go anywhere with it you know where you patrick you just did izing isnt there that the ideas arent there to go anywhere with it you know where you patrick you just did a ph d. On t. V. In about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now ph d. On t. V. In about 3 minutes thats amazing to me let me go to james now you know i guess you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know you know i guess you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the. In the head there and b. People being so interconnected was hit the nail on the head there and b people being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have a global neck that is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering theyre doing quite well and they dont have any solution leads that are not delivering theyre doing quite well and they dont have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protestations here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protesting out of the fact that they dont see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture out of the fact that they dont see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the maybe of some of the factors we see in common or go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile its transit with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile its transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and what sop and thanks for taking prizes in lebanon or was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things like that i cant help but wonder though peter that what what was like that i cant help but wonder though peter that what what more is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests and summers there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases. In other cases they dont get such good press for example in many cases and other cases they dont get such good press for example ive noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year and i notice in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things were describing but theyre bad you see because there are there are vast phenomenon against the very things were describing but theyre bad you see because theyre there or theyre there theyre not really theyre the bad kind of populist as they pose to whats wrong cause theyre theyre not really theyre the bad kind of populist as they pose to whats wrong kong thats going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests are on thats going to go on the populace the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly theyre depending on who we should say about spain they have a disco yeah exactly theyre there to pay for it we should say about spain they have it thats right and if the catalogs are protesting with thats good but of spirit thats right and if the catalogs are protesting with thats good but if spaniards who want spain to Stay Together proton youre rich well who that wants but bad at spains illustrated by getting their approach to this theres a thing well thats bad so i think theres i cant help but but suspect that theres a theres a i in the sky i cant help but but suspect that theres a theres a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i i keep waiting for a better not on a levy to tell us we all in terms of our perceptions i i keep waiting for a better not on a levy to tell us which ones are the good times and which are the bad ones. But he can keep his mouth shut its one of the good times in which the bad ones. Well he can keep his mouth shut as far as im concerned joshua. You know that Patrick Marty mentioned in a far as im concerned joshua you know that Patrick Marty mentioned. U. S. Involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on u. S. Involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to their own the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices all across the country as a great deal of popularity to offices across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the in the and then like threatening turkeys economy and things like that i mean this doesnt it and then that the in the in the and then like threatening turkeys economy and things like that i mean this doesnt make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar and the you make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar in the in the Financial System to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table the Financial System to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesnt it go ahead joshua it does you know look sanctions is a very brutal brutal and it go ahead joshua it does you know look sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate refined little response to trying to regulate refined to your Foreign Policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective pop your Foreign Policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and were seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused it want to schmidt in the worst way and were seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because theyre not going to take it lying down on to escalate violence because theyre not going to take it lying down serious in desperate straits. Now the United States is eager to take the oil that syrias in desperate straits and now the United States is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the you know which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u. S. Has been debating whether they should withdraw all has been debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese he leet has been sucking money out of this system the lebanese he leet has been. Sucking money out of this system for a long time and and you know itll be terrible if 11 on a collapse for a long time and and you know itll be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really is ups as i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isnt the sort of loans of the middle east where people can retrieve the sort of loans of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen preach to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand its a playground but on the other hand its a its a refuge for all a ground on one hand its that playground but on the other hand its a its a refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who cant find a place in their own coal kinds of thinking middle easterners who cant find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into ventry so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. Its hard to see how theyre going to see which it could do at any moment and. Its hard to see how theyre going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy it it just heard you know framed in terms of democracy it it there really hasnt been any serious economic discussions about how there really hasnt been any serious economic. Discussions about how these how the middle Eastern Countries can get out of this terrible income gap all these how the middle Eastern Countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and thats whats going to take and its the bad governance the corruption and thats whats going to take and its we dont really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by so dont really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet dont have a leadership osho media which are easy to gather together yet dont have a leadership and that is something thats playing the middle east its good on the one hand because you know and that has been something thats plagued the middle east its good on the one hand because it means that you cant repress them but its bad on the other hand because when it comes it means that you cant repress them but its bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control they cant do it you know any and i guess im going to patter its time to taking control they cant do it you know any and i guess im going to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni winter and its only getting worse or going to break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni winter and its only getting worse here how do you reflect upon that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched us here how he would like to bomb that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched on something that is very important needs to hes talking about you know no leadership with these virtues on something thats very important needs to hes talking about you know no leadership with these virtual movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you will movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you have ideological people in old political elite reminisce from the the previous ideological people in the old political leaders. Eminence from the the previous old left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be leading this and no ones paying attention because thats not what young people are looking for what they want eating this and no ones paying attention because thats not what young people are looking for what they want what they were looking for was visibility its what the old left was looking for as well a voice for what they were looking for was visibility its what the old left was looking for as well a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately its individual eyes of the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately its individualized and its reflective of an atom an atom and eyes to society and this is what the United States and its reflective of an atom an atom and eyes to society and this is what the United States has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the. South on this is all that i have to jump in here were going to go to a short break and. This is all that i have to jump in here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on global instability. After that short break well continue our discussion on global instability. We just was talking surprises. I we were. Talking surprises. I was on the. Kinds so no need to trouble myself about it oxo i was a pretty kind so no need to trouble myself about it hot so i wasnt ready for all that madam its all things happening damned that when they began to flow of it madam its all things happening damned that when they began to act it was the spine that the society as it is was ready to go it was the spine that the society as it is was ready sue we asked what it sees as an entrepreneur done just. What it seems to have monthly or done jobs. Good politicians do something. Good politicians do something. To put themselves on the line. To get accepted or rejected. Them so a lot. To get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be president im sure. More so want to be rich so when you want to be president im sure. More so want to be rich. But youd like to be closer to see what before 3 of the boys. That youd like to be close to see what before 3 of them all cant be good to. Live in pursuit always in the waters of. Their ship. Cant be good to. Live in pursuit always in the waters of. Their ship. Welcome back to crossfire. Welcome back to crossfire where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing global instability. All Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to remount were discussing global instability. Ok lets go back to james here you know. Ok lets go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i mean there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i stay or should i go ok and i think thats becoming the next stage of your show what i hope they go and i think thats becoming the motto of the trumpet ministrations attitude towards syria which i this had been ministrations attitude towards syria which i. Admit its a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about it here but i do its a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about it here but i think theres a broad belief i think that i think there is. A little seeking i think there is a sense that the u. S. Will and will in. The middle. Middle east. Be of course theyll be the the grahams out there and theyll be the tom cottons and p. The the grahams out there and theyll be the tom cottons and people like that they want to keep the United States in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here people like that they want to keep the United States in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u. S. Has created that itself is. Hating instability because so much dependency the u. S. Has created among many elites in the middle east and theyre going to have to start thinking twice among many elites in the middle east and theyre going to have to start thinking twice and they have social movements that see. This in and they have social movements that see. Disenfranchised rising up in the are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i pay franchised rising up in there are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i i think youre a little more optimistic than i am that were actually going to get out of the middle east where you so i think i think youre a little more optimistic than i am that were actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that im on. My time frame and on my time frame is like 10 that im on. My time frame and on my time frame is like 1015 years ago and its not in this Administration Im sorry to keep going. The juniors are going and its not in this Administration Im sorry to keep going. The ok youre right youre right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day either youre right youre right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i dont think anybody can say. Youre right i dont know how much that and i dont think anybody can say. Youre right i dont know how much that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country you know everybodys making the comparison to the arab spring the rest of the country yeah you know. Everybody is making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the comparison to the Color Revolutions weve seen over the last couple decades were which were few people are making the comparison to the Color Revolutions weve seen over the last couple decades were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not represent were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this out of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside of the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside meddling in these things are as well as the underlying goal of meddling in these things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites and as patrick has pointed out and adam ised especially younger puy in the elites and as patrick is pointing out and adam ised especially younger people but youre right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the people but youre right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet and the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really get end up withdrawing from the middle east because if youre looking for a powder keg there is one well james on withdrawing from the middle east because if youre looking for a powder keg theres one well james i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i dont know what it will be but it wont be good can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i dont know what it will be but it wont be good ok thats for sure ok joshua you know its been its been already been brought up here ok thats for sure ok joshua you know its been its been already been brought up here now and i think its important to discuss here i mean youre an expert in lebanon you lived there for many many years and i think its important. Discuss here i mean youre an expert on lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and weve seen this in home you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and weve seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is pos you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying simply they are because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired. I think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that its not sectarian there are of course every part of the right way you can tell it is that its not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view their body is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role is a lioness in that theres criticism of his ball and its the reason that the role is a lioness and that theres criticism of his ball and its the reason that its taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part and its taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most people real up government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most people realize that you know most people are just worried about where theyre going to get enough money to live you know most people are just worried about where theyre going to get enough money to live expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you cant get good internet expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you cant get good internet all the services that lebanese want whether its picking up the garbage shirt jet all the services that lebanese want whether its picking up the garbage shirt just keeping the streets clean or not making sure people dont park on the sidewalk all those little is keeping the streets clean and not making sure people dont park on the sidewalk all those little insults that overwhelm you when youre in lebanon after a while i think of the insults that overwhelm you when youre in lebanon after a while i think of a piled up and thats why youre seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other aisles up and thats why. Youre seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other its symbolic and its course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but either its symbolic and its course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart the lebanese really want their government to spend think at heart that lebanese really want their government to spend some to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same question you patch ups to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same question you patrick is you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from trick is you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua go ahead i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with go ahead i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything joshua said and i think its clear this is a genuine its very much resembles everything joshua said and i think its clear this is a genuine its very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their 2nd the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that theres an oligarchy and the problem or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that theres an oligarchy and the problem is in all of gorky privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately its also isnt all a gorky kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately its also a sectarian all of our key and thats a result of the confessional system thats been imposed a sectarian all of our key and thats a result of the confessional system thats been imposed on lebanon and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch just on lebanon and we might. I see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that theres this issue of the period but i think more than that theres this issue of the United States meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war you know United States meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority of the u. S. Was to thwart or to move out of power any number one priority of the u. S. Was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was an essential left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in Central America south america in the middle east including Arab Nationalist governmental america south america in the middle east including Arab Nationalist governments that were seen to be going in a socialist direction so. That were seen to be going in a socialist direction so its really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u. S. Has won that cold really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u. S. Has won that cold war its one that imperialist war globally and its now exported war its one that imperialist war globally and its now exported its atomized and individualize societies to the point where i dont think they have that but its atomized and individualize societies to the point where i dont think they have the political direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what little direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out whats better whats a better option than neoliberal economics its people are better whats a better option than neoliberal economics its people are pains to find the answer to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in to find the answer. To that question right now and so if it turns anarchic in and or kids or seems to be expressed more than a political organizing and real solution anarchism seems to be expressed more than political organizing and Real Solutions this is the problem that theyre all facing right now many of them oh thats not a good message and this is the problem that theyre all facing right now many of them oh thats not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq huge it all go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to or where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the permission of the Iraqi Government and the whole issue of american troops iraq without the permission of the Iraqi Government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the pros in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because theres been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james because theres been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james. Yes thats right and you raise the issue of people dying you know weve had people yes right and you raise the issue of people dying you know weve had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it one of them being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i cant help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the Color Revolution of the things i cant help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the Color Revolutions is how the media covers the question of the use of force and is how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh let us say what you know and you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the police beat up the demonstrators in a fact if you looked at the footage it was actually the demonstrators because the police beat up the demonstrators in a fact if you look at the footage it was actually the demonstrators beating up the police whats the whats what is the the ratio or beating up the police whats the whats what is the the ratio or the or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authority or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authorities on the one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence stories on the one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence youre seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look im not im not youre seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look im not im not a believer in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses really believe or in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one in rush of righteous indignation things dota certain level of misery they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things dont. It dont happen that way people dont behave that way and still has to be some kind of people dont happen that way people dont behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has to be some kind of a even if they dont have leaders in the way that joshua refers there has to be some kind of a even if they dont have leaders in the way that joshua refers theres somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and theres somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and theres usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and theres usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other people involved and i get i guess im a bit of a cynic i would get other people involved and i get i guess im a bit of a cynic i i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an actual wonder who keep hidden hand and thats behind the scenes as you know this is also and that bucky my observation that he moved there and by a by the american side you see theres a them theres a matter of the diplomat at saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by Vladimir Putin the russians are causing the problems in chile are being fed by who else by Vladimir Putin the russians are causing it so thats more russian battling so i i dont know i always want to look at the last more russian battling so i i dont know i always want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know youre youre a well renowned well known but anyway joshua you know youre youre a well renowned well known one hollywood. The middle east expert here how do you see western one highly respected middle east expert here how how do you see western Media Coverage of whats happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have Media Coverage of whats happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. You know i think they have the right optic go ahead. You know i think the western media has gone through a real education over the last the western media has gone through a real education over the last 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into. They bought into george bushs yep original argument too. They bought into george bushs original argument that that america could scrape off these governments and that that america could scrape off these governments and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about whats going on in the middle east more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about whats going on in the middle east or exhausted a yeah there are exhausted and theyve spent you know precious or exhausted a. Yeah there are exhausted and theyve spent you know President Trump is hitting that. Very hard meat he keeps on reiterating weve spent some time trump is hitting not hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating weve spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said a trillion the other day but we spent a lot of money and 7. 00 trillion dollars i think he said a trillion the other day but weve spent a lot of money and americans havent paid for that theyve just put it on the credit card its going to come due americans havent paid for that theyve just put it on the credit card its going to come due and and i think there they are feeling exhausted they want to get out and and i think theyre they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they dont they realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix they dont they realize this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix were seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria were seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back again and and america there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back yeah and and americans dont want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are dont want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they really america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize theres not an easy answer that underneath the surface of langs there is not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language like we all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian which like we all want. A better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are we actual force this and their ethnic forces that are not easy to can force is there are we actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and then america tain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america cant manipulate them weve seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that dumping the cant manipulate them weve seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that dumping the kurds now is a sort of very crass grab for oil in syria with herds now of a sort of very crass grab for oil in syria which is which is i think to a certain degree reflective of the exhaustion of which is i think to a certain degree reflective of the exhaustion of americans and now this this sort of money grab were just going to go for the oil sattar rabia of americans and now this is sort of money grab were just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil in syria it is it undermines grab the oil in syria it is it undermines. Whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows that whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face to the power in the middle east today ugly face to power in the middle east today that that. That doesnt have answers yeah but i mean. That that. That doesnt have answers yeah but i mean youre i will have to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone elses now to resort to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone elses Natural Resources so they cant rebuild i mean i dont know how more pathetic back can be ok they cant rebuild i mean i dont know how more pathetic back can be ok but unfortunately its not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen thats all the time we have many but unfortunately its not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen thats all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here and our thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. See you next time and remember. Is youll be. A reflection of reality. A reflection of reality. In the world. 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Hello and welcome to worlds apart and speaking truth or at least one class and things to power hes never easy of 2 worlds apart of speaking truth or at least one class and things to power hes never easy in russia with its fairly nascent civil culture and overly sensitive on it but in russia with its fairly nascent civil culture and overly sensitive and at times overly controlling officialdom thats a special challenge how to talk to times overly controlling officialdom thats a special challenge how to talk to the authorities so they will listen well to discuss that im now joined by you could see it in the ability authority so they will listen well to discuss that im now joined by you could see a political scientist and now a former member of russias president ial council on human rights and civil cynical scientist and now a former member of russias president ial council on human rights and Civil Society if you could get in thats good to see you again thank you very much for coming thank you for the invitation you could get in thats good to see you again thank you very much for coming thank you for the invitation now many people. Very disappointed by your departure from many people. Very disappointed by your departure from the council on the human rights although apparently in the with yourself youre going to have a lot of the council on the human rights although apparently in the us yourself youre going to have a lot of sense of humor about that but before we discuss this lets establish the contact lot of sense of humor about that but before we discuss this lets establish the context because i know that for quite some time youve been arguing that the Russian Society is far freer because i know that for quite some time youve been arguing that the Russian Society is far freer and more mature than its usually given credit for how and more mature than its usually given. Credit for how noteworthy was the summer of 2009000 in manifesting this noteworthy was the summer of 2009000 in manifesting this sort of better than the given credit for nature of russia its sort of better than the given credit for nature of russian Civil Society in the not just Civil Society but society in general well on one hand this is a society in the not just Civil Society but society in general well on one hand this is not the 1st definitely wave of protest and quite mass protests that we have witnessed is not the 1st definitely wave of protests and quite mass protests that we have witnessed starting 2007 Team Every Year we have more or less mass starting 2007 team most every year we have more or less mask