Instability im joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and hes a former u. S. Diplomat global instability im joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and hes a former u. S. Diplomat and former advisor to the u. S. Senate Republican Leadership in plymouth we have and former advisor to the u. S. Senate Republican Leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to Joshua Landis he is director of the center of middle east studies and in norman we cross to Joshua Landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and ill at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate josh. Let me go to you 1st in norman all across that was appreciated joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other plough we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over braggs it in the u. K. We have bases around the world plus we have the whole division over braggs it in the u. K. We have the division in the United States is a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about this but a division in the United States is a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bell west if a country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possible there are for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen in a number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead and probably will happen in a number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua well i think youre right lebanon is one of the 3rd most and joshua. Well i think youre right lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most indebted country in the world riad salame a the head of the central bank said it to come dead in country in the world riyadh salah made the head of the central bank said it the country will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are and you will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways i think a reflection of tremendous change anyways i think a reflection of tremendous change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from across the world you know europe and poor and we can see that from across the world you know europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is up is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst its 61 tell by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst its 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are her scent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle but but its that you know the world has become are hovering in the middle but but its that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments i mean more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria youre seeing this kind of like lebanon iraq egypt syria youre seeing this kind of explosion of real you know theres not enough jobs theres bad and. Of real you know theres not enough jobs there is bad Government People are robbing at the top and the public feels like theyre getting a Government People are robbing at the top and the public feels like theyre getting a very bad deal and theyre up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that josh very bad deal and theyre up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that joshua to said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know just said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these can we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. Under 18 and what prospects do they have here and trees a lot of people. Under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here whats it going to take because as josh but my issue is with governance here whats it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick to have pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because theres so many you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because theres so many uprising zork does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think the uprisings or the so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think theres a tendency by the media by political commentators biocon theres a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political economist to try to find some generalized terms of mists and politike. The economist to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what its like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west has to sort of describe whats like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have different aspects and different character in the realities you have you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about all sticks with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for analyzing this youve got post colonial identity overarching frameworks for analyzing this youve got post colonial identity issues youve got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing issues youve got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from war one youve got neo liberal places like the middle east all the way back from war one youve got neo liberal policies elian lasy of neo liberal policies you have u. S. Meddling policy zealously of neo liberal policies you have u. S. Meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u. S. Foreign policy which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u. S. Foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist social economic structures and dependency collective. Social economic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries Economic Issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce likely i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything theyre economically completely dependent on things like they import everything theyre economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class foreign aid and in ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country thats just one example so its it is very difficult i think hong kong in a country thats just one example so its it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because it is also has been mischaracterized by the press because its it wasnt just an uprising to do with class this had it wasnt just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class Global Citizen dissent and yet that it exists virtually their identity from from some social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they dont know where to go with this and i think that also drives that change drives it but they dont know where to go with this change well the political organizing isnt there that the ideas arent there to go anywhere with it change well the political all. Going to zing isnt there that the ideas arent there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. On t. V. In about 3 minutes easing to me let me go you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. On t. V. In about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectation james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and b. P. Patients and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and b. People being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering theyre doing quite well and global elites that are not delivering theyre doing quite well and they dont have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it they dont have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting in more than protesting out of the fact that they dont see that they have a future here and that more than protesting out of the fact that they dont see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes laughters we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile its transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and self like in chile its transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things like that i cant help but wonder though peter that phones and whats up and things like that i cant help but wonder though peter that what what more is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example so what what. Or is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly all media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases and other cases they dont get such good press protesting against in many cases and other cases they dont get such good press for example ive noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the grandads for example ive noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much they have all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things were describing but theyre bad you see were a working class phenomenon against the very things were describing but theyre bad you see because theyre there or theyre there theyre not really theyre the bad kind of populist because theyre there or theyre there or theyre not really theyre the bad kind of populist as they pose to whats wrong kong thats going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the same pose to whats wrong kong thats going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly theyre depending on who we should say in their yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly theyre depending on who we should say about spain they have it thats right and if the catalogs are protesting what about spain they have it thats right and if the catalogs are protesting with thats good but if spaniards who want spain to Stay Together are protesting well thats bad thats good but if spaniards who want spain to Stay Together are protesting well thats bad so i think theres i cant help but but suspect that theres a there and so i think the. I cant help but suspect that theres a theres a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for a better not already or theres a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for a better not already levy to tell us which ones are the good and which are the bad ones. Levy to tell us which ones are the good which are the bad ones that he can keep his mouth shut as far as im concerned joshua you know. Patrick can keep his mouth shut as far as im concerned joshua you know. Patrick marty mentioned. Us involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know marty mentioned. Us involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices across the country as a. Elected to the offices across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the end then like threatening turkeys economy and things like that i mean great deal of popularity and then that the in the end then like threatening turkeys economy and things like that i mean this doesnt make things any better i mean constantly using this doesnt make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar and the use in the Financial System to punish countries around the world that just takes more dollar in the us in the Financial System to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesnt it go ahead joshua. It does you know look at sanctions is a very pins off the table doesnt it go ahead joshua it does you know look at sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate refine to your Foreign Policy because it hits people right across the refined to your Foreign Policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and were seeing that in iran with sanctions or it is collective punishment in the worst way and were seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which of cause iran to escalate violence because theyre not going to take it live on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because theyre not going to take it lying down and syria is in desperate straits and now the United States is eating down and syria is in desperate straits and now the United States is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u. S. Has been debating whether they should withdraw as the u. S. Has been debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but. All foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese elite has been. Sucky you know the lebanese elite has been. Sucking money out of this system for a long time and and you know itll be tearing money out of this system for a long time and and you know itll be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to call if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really is a set of lungs of the middle east where people because it really is a set of lungs of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand its a playground but on the other hand it said it can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand its a playground but on the other hand it said its a refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who can some refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who cant find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. Its hard if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. Its hard to see how theyre going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic see how theyre going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was frame of problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. And of course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. It there really hasnt been any serious economic. Discussion there really hasnt been any serious economic discussions about how these how the middle Eastern Countries can get out of those things about how these how the middle Eastern Countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and thats what terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and thats whats going to take and its we dont really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these myths going to take and its we dont really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet dont movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet dont have a leadership and that is something thats playing the middle east its good to have a leadership and that is something thats playing the middle east its good on the one hand because it means that you cant repress them but its bad on the other hand on the one hand because it means that you cant repress them but its bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control they cant do it you know anything because when it comes time to taking control they cant do it you know any and i guess im going to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni when they get let me go to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always called the sunni winter and its only getting worse here how do you reflect upon that patrick go ahead sure tour and its only getting worse here how do you reflect upon that patrick go ahead sure i mean joshua just. Saying that im visiting there isnt very important to talk you know well you know we dont know leadership with these worship will with these virtual movements to remove the exist to have minutes to really exist by social media just driven by social media no no and and so so you have ideologues. People people in political political elite rehman eminence friends from the end of the previous old left are screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here the previous old left are screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be leading this and no ones paying attention because thats not what young people are looking for i want to be leading this and no ones paying attention because thats not what young people are looking for for what they say one what they were looking for was of his visit his ability its what the old left was looking for as well a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately its individualized and its reflective of an atom an atom and eyes to society and that its individualized and its reflective of an atom an atom annoyed society and this is what the United States has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that is what the United States has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the. South and this is all that i have to jump placed class identity in the. South and this is all that i have to jump in here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on global instability stay here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on global instability stay. Im going to fulfill the repeated promises apollo. Im going to fulfill the repeated promises apologise to the people and promise to be you know its all bots to the people i promise to be you know weve all bots in the. Place ready for a. Place ready for a. Pretty good bertha now you want to 1st read. Pretty good bertha now you want to 1st correct that. No. No. Ball the. Ball be. Coming out my you are. Coming i can link up my. What hall of politicians isnt just to judge you because you can. Be put themselves on hold on the line to get accepted or rejected. So when you want to get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be president and. Want to be president im sure some. More some want to want to but the rest of us. Have to go right to the press was like that before 3 in the morning cant be good to go on to be press was like that before 3 in the morning cant be Good Good Good i mean theres im interested in the old system and how it is it should knock out your. Question session good night for. The for today and the day that i did i wouldnt it wouldnt interest and then mad at it since the bad news in yemen to the United States deems to be a threat to the good the bad news in yemen the United States deems to be a threat the good those who work in syria the cia and the u. S. Military were. Those who work in syria the cia and the u. S. Military were engaged in covert actions really throughout the world. Where they were assassinations covert actions really throughout the world. Where they were assassinating populist leaders they were backing up the right way military windows funding in our meeting populist leaders they were backing up right away military windows funding an army of death squads theres no phones anymore because theres always a small means of death squads theres no phones anymore because theres always a small call of people from really good this country prof. Really could this. For profit. Well. Well. You could be. Welcome back across top where all things work and. Welcome back to crossfire where all Things Considered im peter were discussing global instability. That im peter were discussing global instability. Ok lets go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know we should i stay or should. Go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i stay or should. I go ok and i think thats becoming the motto of the trumpet ministration i go ok and i think thats becoming the motto of the trumpet ministrations attitude towards syria which i. Did. Attitude towards syria which i. Admit its a dismal policy i mean we could do hours talking about it here but i think theres a dismal policy i mean we could do hours talking about it here but i think theres broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u. S. Will broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u. S. Will and will withdraw from the middle east you know of course theyll be the will withdraw from the middle east of course theyll be the. Grahams out there and theyll be the tom cottons and people like that they want the grahams out there and theyll be the tom cottons and people like that they want to keep the United States in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that its some to keep the United States in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u. S. Has created wealth is creating instability because so much dependency the u. S. Has created among many of the elites in the middle east that and theyre going to have to start thinking twice and they have among many elites in the middle east that and theyre going to have to start thinking twice and they have social movements that see that are disenfranchised of social movements that see. Disenfranchised rising up and they are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of client rising up and they are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i i think that they have been for decades go ahead james. Well i i think youre a little more optimistic than i am that were actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that and i think youre a little more optimistic than i am that were actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that and i must know my mind my timeframe and and my time frame is like 1015 years or so now my mind my time frame and and my time frame is like 1015 years ago and its not in this Administration Im sorry to keep going. The ok youre and its not in this Administration Im sorry to keep going. The ok youre right youre a right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i dont think anybody youre right youre a right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i dont think anybody can say. Youre right i dont know how much that relates you can say. Youre right i dont know how much that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are large to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country and urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country you know everybodys making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the very you know everybodys making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the comparison to the color revolutions weve seen over the last couple decades were which were largely comparison to the color revolutions weve seen over the last couple decades were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country and i would say in many cases that astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside meddling in these 3 people have chosen that so i do wonder some. Times about what the outside meddling in these things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites and as patrick has pointed out and atomized especially younger people and as patrick has pointed out and atomized especially younger people but youre right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to but youre right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet end up withdrawing from the what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet end up withdrawing from the middle east because if youre looking for a powder keg so there is one well james i can tell you is in the middle east because if youre looking for a powder keg theres one well james i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i dont know what it will be but it wont be good ok thats printed what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i dont know what it will be but it wont be good ok thats for sure ok joshua you know its been its been already been brought up here now and i think im sure ok. You know its been its been already been brought up here now and i think its important to discuss here i mean youre an expert in lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean its important to discuss here i mean youre an expert on lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and weve seen this in Hong Kong James in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and weve seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is possibly there but how legitimate is it and how much out. Influence you think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grass because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua roots is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the. I think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that its not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to separate way you can tell it is that its not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role of it you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role is a lioness in that theres criticism of his ball and its the reason that its taking place is a lioness and that theres criticism of his ball and its the reason that its taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the government is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most people realize that you know most so forth but you know i think the lebanese and most people realize that you know most people are just worried about where theyre going to get enough money to live expenses is going but theyre just worried about where theyre going to get enough money to live expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you cant get good internet all this through the roof you know electric is irregular you cant get good internet all the services that lebanese want whether its picking up the garbage shirt just keeping the services that lebanese want whether its picking up the garbage shirt just keeping the streets clean or not making sure people dont park on the sidewalk all those little insults that reads clean and not making sure people dont park on the sidewalk all those little insults that overwhelm you when youre in lebanon after a while i think of a piled up that overwhelm you when youre in lebanon after a while i think of a piled up and thats why youre seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other its symbolic and thats. Why youre seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other its symbolic and its course its can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart it and its course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart that the lebanese lebanese really really want want want there go their government has to spend some special and some snow to soft some of these some of these economic kind of comic problems which have not been solved the same question you put patrick you know how do you know how do you how do you put the skate the sales case taylor of use they dont care if you keep it open and cheaply when wanting to mention family name and you want to name 2 way on foot solomon died on the out side and then when the last root squeezed grass roots grievances instead we will says or does the city will numerated but way i just enough numerated with joshua go ahead ed. I think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything josh i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything joshua said and i think its clear this is a genuine it very much resembles the occupy movement said and i think its clear this is a genuine it very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon on regardless of their sect or their women in the sense that the young people in lebanon on regardless of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that theres an oligarchy and the problem is in all of affiliations religious affiliations agree that theres an oligarchy and the problem is an oligarchy kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately its also a sectarian arche kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately its also a sectarian all of our key and thats a result of the confessional system thats been imposed on lebanon on all of our key and thats a result of the confessional system thats been imposed on lebanon and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch us and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that theres this issue of the United States and the period but i think more than that theres this issue of the United States meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority idling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority of the u. S. Was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning of the u. S. Was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in Central America some government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in Central America south america in the middle east including Arab Nationalist governments that were america in the middle east including Arab Nationalist governments that work. Seem to be going in a socialist direction so. Really disempowered seem to be going in a socialist direction so its really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the us has won that cold war its our to lot of countries over the years and i think the us has won that cold war its one that imperialist war globally and its now exported its atom on that imperialist war globally and its now exported its atomized and individualize societies to the point where i dont think they have the political and individualize societies to the point where i dont think they have the political direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out whats better whats the direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out whats better whats a better option than neoliberal economics its people are pains to find the and a better option than neoliberal economics its people are pains to find the answer to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in anarchism sir to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in anarchism seems to be expressed more than political organizing and Real Solutions this is them seems to be expressed more than political organizing and Real Solutions this is the problem that theyre all facing right now many of them oh thats not a good message at all the problem that theyre all facing right now many of them oh thats not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know the some of the troops that withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the the some of the troops that withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the permission of the Iraqi Government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or information of the Iraqi Government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or is. Hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because its hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because theres been a lot in iraq and a lot of people who actually died go ahead james you know that in a lot in iraq a lot of people actually died go ahead james yes thats right and you raised the issue of people dying you know weve had people being killed and just right and you raised the issue of people dying you know weve had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i cant really over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i cant help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is it help but notice again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the police how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the Police Beating up in a desperate nazirs rage and then factors if you dont have the thought of looked at the foot and actually started. Beating up the police whats the whats what is the the ratio or the or the least whats the whats what is the the ratio or the or the or the or the equities between what what im doing to force or restraint is being being used by the authorities already know whats on one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence youre seeing something and and how militant violent are and even using deadly violence youre seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look im not im not a believer in times for people in the crowds and you wonder look im not im not a believer in the whole. Marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things dont look dont happen as they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things dont look dont happen that way people dont behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has been that way people dont behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has to be some kind of a even if they dont have leaders in the way that joshua refers theres somebody some kind of even if they dont have leaders in the way that joshua refers theres somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and theres usually 30 somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and theres the usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other pierre lee small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other people involved and i get i guess im a bit of a cynic i i always wonder people involved and i get i guess im a bit of a cynic i i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation its you who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation thats used by a by the american side you see theres an american diplomat saying that the proposed by a by the american side you see theres an american diplomat saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by Vladimir Putin the russians are causing it so thats really are being fed by who else by Vladimir Putin the russians are causing it so thats more russian meddling so i i dont know i always want to look at the different layers of russian battling so i i dont know i always want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on the young all he way or through and see what a different and well there is going to swing. All the way through the different layers in joshua. Blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know youre youre a well renowned well known well highly respect joshua you know youre youre a well renowned well known well highly respected middle east expert here how do you see western Media Coverage the middle east expert here how how do you see western Media Coverage of whats happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right of whats happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. You know i think the western optic go ahead. You know i think the western media has gone through a real education over the last. 15 year has gone through a real education over the last. 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into in years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into. They bought into george bushs original argument that. They bought into george bushs original argument that that america could scrape off these governments and create a mob that america could scrape off these governments and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more ocracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about whats going on in the middle east or exhaust a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about whats going on in the middle east or exhausted a yeah there are exhausted and theyve spent you know president troposphere day so yeah there are exhausted and theyve spent you know President Trump is hitting that. Hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating weve spent 7 trillion in not hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating weve spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we spent a lot of money and americans in dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but weve spent a lot of money and americans havent paid for that theyve just put it on the credit card its going to come due and i havent paid for that theyve just put it on the credit card its going to come due and and i think there they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they dont they and i think theyre they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they dont they realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix were seeing realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix were seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria. This attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back in and and americans dont want to a but there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back in and and americans dont want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that and and of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize theres not an iraq a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize theres not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language like we see answer that underneath the surface of language like we all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are we have to. Forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america cant or with actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america cant manipulate them weve weve seen that in this was with a kurd a kurd her. Side with the kerns that dumping the kurds its now a sort of very crass grab for now in so. Which very crass grab for oil in syria which is which is i think a sigh 3rd think a. Lot of of of. The dog michigan of a lot of american arkans and now this is sort of money grab were just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil now this is sort of money grab were just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil and syria it is it undermines. Whatever in syria it is it undermines. Whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face or principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face to the power in the middle east today that to power in the middle east today that that. That doesnt have answers yeah but i mean you will have to end on nap. That doesnt have answers yeah but i mean you will have to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles the feeling someone else is now to resources so they cant point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone elses now to resources so they cant rebuild to build build build i mean i dont know i dont have no more dont have more back confed be the ok button can be ok but unfortunately its not really part of the. That way in western media gentlemen thats all the time we have many thanks and i guess only its not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen thats all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here c. N. N. Washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. Next time and remember. She. Cooked up the dishes issue some. Of what was announcing out so to put a little bit into some of these its just a simple system. With. No. See him do you. See him do you see when im with you to. Look at with a showing at the cinema if you. Look at with the showing of the. Hes like im sure. Hes like im sure. You have your patients that a. Lot of shipping. Your patients than a. Lot of shipping. Most of the book is. In the process emotion in the book youre. The person youre not sure whos you know i dont know what the. Mizuno could do nothing for the move. Was the latest losing the focus. Was the latest losing the focus. Boise leaflets the show yet of putting this was going to do some. Research through some really stupid. Choices believe that the whole yet of putting this was going to do some. Research through some really stupid the social it does raise. The social it does raise. An almost show small seemed wrong all right old roles just dont all childs seemed wrong all right old roles just dont call. Me old beliefs yet to shape our disdain to come get me the old beliefs yet to shape our disdain to come to educate and engage with equals betrayal advocate and engage with equals betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart. Just. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. To look for common ground. During the Great Depression. During the Great Depression which im old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed working. There would have to remember there was most of my family were unemployed working. There wasnt it was bed you know much worse objectively than today but there was an explanation and it was bed you know much worse objectively than today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. There was a real sense of hope for patients the things were going to get better. There was a real sense of hopefulness there isnt today todays america was shaped by the 10 principles there isnt today todays america was shaped by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. Of a concentration of wealth and power. Reduced democracy attack solid doubt engineer elections reduced democracy attack solid doubt engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to manufacture consent and other principles according to no im jones one set of rules for the rich offices no im jones one set of rules for the rich offices. Thats what happens when you put her into the national. Thats what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will which will is. Narrow sector of will which will is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as youd expect one of the most influence at a kid to increasing power for itself just as youd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of american chill intellectuals of our time. Speaks to most of the modern civilization the american. Representatives of the Syrian Government the opposition and society. Representatives of the Syrian Government the opposition and society meet and they are in a big big did to bring peace to the to their war there were 2 or more in the country entry. Also this hour detained american journalist Max Blumenthal claims he was arrested also this hour detained american journalist Max Blumenthal claims he was arrested on false charges of assault for his reporting on venezuelan opposition violence one false charges of assault for his reporting on venezuelan opposition violence we hear from his lawyer. He was denied access here from his lawyer. He was denied access for a phone call to contact an attorney or his family these charges are late for a phone call to contact an attorney or his family these charges are blatantly false and highly in court. And the u. K. Is false and highly in the court. And the u. K. Is heading out in from for a general election as part parliament are put. On some of the bills. At the summer tour that all the 12 votes to break. In pasts