Coming up with a few moments to look at the impact brooks across is. Flowing in welcome to crossfire were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle it seems the brags that psagot will never end the electorate voted to leave the European Union but the Political Class and media are resistant to peoples voice mean anything anymore what is the legacy of breaks that institutions confidence in elites and the democratic process. Cross talking briggss. Im joined by my guest we jasper in london hes a former deputy mayor of london also in london we have alexander macarius hes a writer on Legal Affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran dot com and in belfast we cross to david vance he is a political commentator as well as editor of news media dot net all right gentlemen crosslike rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it Alexander Lee ill go to you 1st i mean if i werent mistaken this could be a reality political reality show watching brags that ive been watching the house of commons you know and you know what there are some really eloquent people in there though most of time i dont have an any idea what theyre talking about here the people voted but were still not there and things are still in flux here what is what is the overall impact that it has had on political and social life in the u. K. I mean its gone on 3 years now go ahead alex. Well well i think the 1st thing to say is that if you look talking about large a country the country remains extremely calm but politically it has created Intense Division and of course perhaps the most damaging thing is that it is draining away Political Energy from discussion of every other subject it is also translating into a Major Political and constitutional crisis right at the very center in westminster itself as a Political Class which found itself completely unprepared for this challenge and seems to lack the agility to rise to it has struggled to cope with it so we have a situation in britain where we seem to be at a kind of impasse with no very clear idea of how were going to find our way through and that of course is worrying because all kinds of other problems are piling up at the same. People are becoming increasingly polarized and angry with each other ok leave same question to you what is the overall impact to date of this entire process because as i said in my introduction the people were given a proposition and they voted on it ok and its incumbent upon the Political Class to. Fulfill the wishes of the people and its still not happening and you see road brought blocks left and right and Center Including i would say the speaker of the house of commons go ahead lee. Well i think their reality is that the country is completely transfixed by this debate the reality is youre right there was a referendum on a vote but the simplistic nature of that debate has meant that nobody actually considered this sort of buys on time structure of complicated legal economic social cultural Citizenship Rights implications of disentangling from the European Union and the reality of the matter is that even if we proceed on a linear path without any problems the detail of the negotiation is likely to hang over britain for the next 10 years so we see that a broad implication ways of our constitutional crisis i dont agree with the speaker was blocking anything its conventional parliamentary. Custom in practice that you cannot simply reintroduce bills that youve already lost in the house of commons unless theres some way substantively no and i mean less and less surely discussed in lesser to resume ok i mean come on all right i mean that happened in that case here david let me go to you here i mean i can i can i can i dont i take leaves point very well ok and it is very complicated but these people are in power its their job to do this ok you dont have to have sympathy or cry on their shoulder or you know all the drama no thats their job do it do what theyre the people voted they have to do it with the that the mandate was passed in the they have to move forward im sorry its complicated thats been get out of office and let somebody else do it go ahead david yeah i think its ugly really not complicated at all we were given to given a choice today to remain or leave the European Union in this country to leave europe in union unless. Thinking that the last 3 and a half years plus has exposed is the fact that our parliament is essentially opposed to the will of british people in 26. 00 think. That the original question you pose the whole gregson negotiate experience lets call it that experience issue one a complete dismal failure of democracy in the u. K. And so many people have started to wonder well look if we vote and look at the elites dont like what weve fought for d but we win the vote and they then and then they spend 3 plus years. Doing Everything Possible to avoid it then what message does that send to the state of democracy in this in this country i believe what it shows is weve got a our Rotten Parliament weve got a rotten media weve got a rotten corporate capitalist class out there and all of these people are inspired to deny the will of the people but guess what were not going to be tonight and we will leave the European Union well and so we wont take your. Lead but we actually with you know i dont even know if id come over to her but if i was some sort all up ok now when i say i met here its because the people voted weve gone through this entire process here we watched all lot of it on television and i can tell you as an american i actually enjoy watching the debate in the house of commons its its the entertainment and entertaining in its own way all right but on the last after all of this debate they still cant get to the end to get past the goalpost ok because leave to set it but they wont why alexander let me go ahead. Well i think when people say that this is all too complicated and is bizarre and so on and we go all these complicated rules the truth is that there are lots of people in britain particularly within the police equal clause who never actually accepted the decision to leave there was a referendum leave one but a lot of people who belong to remain have never really accepted it and i think that what we see happening in parliament increasingly is not so much a desire to sort out the many complicated problems that involve leaving the European Union which to be very clear on resolvable it is rather an attempt to prevent the hope process happening at all and that is what is causing the crisis that is why you have got to ation where there is as i said growing anger and a impasse and the constitution is now in facie extraordinary stresses ok we didnt want to jump in dont know that they had liefer here are dick look you know the country voted to self harm itself politicians are politicians have come to the challenge of how do we facilitate a democratic mandate that these injuries to our constituencies right everybody agrees that short term mid term long term its going to have an Economic Impact on the country so they struggle with those issues try to well let me finish to try and make sense but you dont find somebody who says im about to commit suicide and ive done it by democratic vote youre talking about him by saying you know can we just let you get on with it please so ive got all this i mean he had put out im going to do this during the british usage of or not just ring i say theres more to suicide. Ok. All right look i think it is economic suicide because economic suicide i think the country voted to cut its own economic throat i think it was just like in the banks it was like to we were all like so we came to a wrong conclusion based on misinformation and the reality is that employees who lost struggling with a decision that its against the National Interest on a contract thats right its not going to be an easy decision lets go to date word again lets go to garbage out fast go ahead do it what we just hit her really is that hysteria that comes from being a sore d loser leak things he knows better than 17400000 people listen really i dont think i know better youre right i do think i know better because 17400000 people up 3 calmly believing it ok to talk me to im all right you think if you think you know last year we interrupt so i think i can talk you down go ahead of it david go at it oh i if this is the way its going to be proceeded usually shot across me then im not going to continue david what ive got so i you so the point is the defeat of your old timidity laziness by this host of parliament is a rumanian heise of parliament but the uniting there is no mis uncertain just that now that is just ridiculous youve got people even a tall matola rees who are very supportive go ahead well david keep going keep going to. Get of talking over well not working me late so this is like me you know calling me a room in a Parliament Leave u. K. A lot to mislead people likely just cant get over the fact that they lost and he will keep losing and so what im also not a very pragmatic what i want actually is to execute the referendum in a way that he doesnt harm people. I dont be lots. Of integrity i dont think thats treachery of us charity but weve got to get the best possible job we can do. It started to be to talk you know to you know understand something simple the stuff to be it is listening to each other sorry. Its going to cross over the shoulder. Its an interventionist homestead youre welcome to interventions i mean from being in over me in not allowing me to stand in argument you have to understandably you know look you know im a little echo chamber of your own anymore but im here knowing the way this all this. How a general election peter i agree lets talk about people all im saying is right let people speak at the ball above the balls what do you disagree all right on that point gentlemen were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on the braggs it saga stay with r. T. There is no variety any of the characters that make a bubble finance anymore everything is that 00 is predominate every single conversation that comes out of the mouth of every financial writer in the press and on television is 0 every security is now based on to 0 and the entire mix of this phantasmagoria Global Finance is is all blending together into one huge void worthless. There are no official statistics in india concerning children who have been lost or separated from their parents something to estimate that every 30 minutes in the country the trial goes missing. Well you. Know what you only got. The National HumanRights Commission stating that 46. 00 miners go missing every year one of the police quoted. The United NationsChildrens Fund has described the situation as genocide and various sources suggested in india there are several 1000000 missing women and children. This is a stick from a water bottle found in the stomach of a fish the brand is part of the Cocacola Company which sells millions of bottles of soda every day the idea was that lets tell consumers there are the bad ones there the litter bugs are throwing this away industry should be blamed for all this waste the company has long promised to reuse the plastic. Thats. A special kind of funding. On the. Phone now the mountains of waste only grow higher. Welcome back across where all things are considered im peter little remind you were discussing brags that. Ok lets go back to alexander in london well as you saw in the 1st part of the. Program its very contentious here and it remains to be in nothings really changed since the referendum it kind of reminds me how democrats think of Hillary Clinton in 2016 topic for another program but alex. What about you know im very interested in how institutions are. Being affected by all of this you know and and you know the whole russia gate trump and brags that you know they do have commonalities where you do have. A deep state and im not trying to be used in a per were george of way characters that have a vested interest in the status quo that it works for them ok but what about lets say the Political Parties i mean Jeremy Corbin is suffered tremendously during this entire process basically because he hasnt really taken a very hard stand at least thats my opinion from my perch so far away and the tories they dont pull this off theyre they are in there are going to be in the dustbin of history i mean this is been disastrous for the establishment the who wants to keep the status quo go ahead alex. Well well if i can say i think what we just heard on this program is the point that i made at the beginning people are getting more angry and our political system is at an impasse because some people will not accept the decision of the 2016 referendum and of course that is creating a political crisis of course it is creating instability and if i may make a further point when people talk about economic harm the greatest possible economic so far you can do to a country is to destabilize its political system so that it is impossible any longer either for decisions to be made or for Political Parties to function properly germy called in the labor party have a very Ambitious Program which they wish to implement Going Forward no good she is discussing that because the labor party has been taken over in effect why those people within it who do not want to see the britain leave the European Union and the result is that the labor Party Instead of discussing its program is constantly involving itself in all sorts of devices to ensure that britain remains within the European Union the result is it is bleeding support and hes not able to push you a coherent message the same is true in some ways of the conservative party it too is fracturing yeah the best way to address these problems is to implement the referendum result store using this melodramatic language about people committing suicide because that is frankly. Exaggerated and you. Same here to walk that has no connection to reality and then to deal with whatever problems arise in the process and move forward britain has only been in the European Union for a comparatively short on in its history it existed as a major power before it can become a successful country all for. Ok well it was a very go ahead jump in david go ahead if i can actually build in the very interesting point so the alexanders mit i think the reality is that rex it is kind of redefined what has been traditional british politics and so its not a no longer a right left argument sudden its essentially a bracks it argument and sort of get on with our son has just said the toilet over is nowhere in the polls its almost melting down thats why if you say peter if the conservatives conservatives do not deliver their tolls and thats when alone there was a decided to be the new liberal to become a creditor bracks it has redefined everything and so its only when we actually get a satisfactory conclusion to bracks that but if you like normal politics will resume and i think thats been the the of the thing that has sort of seeped into the political psyche of across the United Kingdom and so thats what the resolution of rex it actually will define Everything Else but you dont get away with talking about it being at leavers exciting marxist agenda or being or assist desire to have more teachers and doctors and nurses none of the cuts through you believe until bracks it is resolved you know only if you get in watching the debates and watching all of the drama and everything. On the face of it i can agree with you a good deal but if there is it would ever be good enough deal i mean it seems to me thats the excuse i mean im talking to leave right now it seems to me the the they keep moving the gold coast might be opposed you know this is not a good enough deal not a good enough deal because they dont want to deal i mean if that from the outside looking in thats what it looks like to me its always ok we agree but its always but and then if you get this paralysis am i wrong and seeing it that way we go ahead. Nah i think that the referendum is a fair reflection of the views of people in the country i think that parties are split tory and labor are split on the implications are a total drain on confidence on Democratic Institutions in the United Kingdom i think that of failure to resolve these matters whatever ones d view is one that invites a kind of politics that i think well all come to bitterly regret for a long time i think britain has felt itself inculcated from the sort of european style fascism and racism that weve seen elected in many countries around europe i think that could change i think it is changing and the longer that this matter remains on resolved the more likelihood we are for communities who when the dailies made on we leave without no deal begin to feel the economic consequences of that wont be blaming the houses of parliament of politicians theyll be looking for an extreme alternative and that invites people like nigel for rajan of the extreme elements within british politics maybe to gain electoral advantage bob just say this by way of the sort of this. Naive assumption that there is an easy thing to do to leave the European Union as if 40 years of economic ties and deep. Regulator re procedure and legislation can be admitted as if the Northern Ireland border question can be solved just like the these are deeply difficult questions and the kind of punch and judy politics that we see played out in the referendum just doesnt lend itself to the realities of the modern world and as much as people will say well its hysterical language i think that everybody agrees that the consequences for britain will be some economic harm what some options will be worse than. But everybody agrees were going to take a step back and i we really going to sit as men of my age im 60 now and tell our grandchildren that we we doused britain in an economic an inferno or because we didnt like the polish guy serving it testicles i mean i think its bizarre one its not its not a decision well you know he made ok well intellect yes made on emotion yeah. Let me go down as enemy curious but i mean ok fine people voted for it weve been talking about it for over 3 years ok. Does anybody really know exactly whats going to happen when it happens no but you guys you know you made it this far in history you made it this far news story and i have a lot of faith in the in that and britain and the people of britain i think you can handle it i think you can handle it im ok david youve got a job and go ahead david jump in weve actually managed you know all those years as a treat as a free country so i mean a certain years of british history disappears because i wont be nearly a year for example rightly so theyre relatively short a short 40 years but it demonstrates to me and said youre is toxic the European Union is on high and prudent of british people who are to say we want out and you know some people cant accept that and some people never will its because there are loyalties in brussels not nazi or into the United Kingdom but just thought we need to do a little and not just as bad as saying that all bricks are racist i dont believe it and i dont believe people in the position im outlining are all conspiratorial oppositionists dont believe i think that its an enormous yeah but let me let me go to Alexander Point me go now xander make errors here alex to see this is an interesting point we just heard here i mean it seems to me and im not choosing sides at this moment my question is neutral here but both sides have made the whole discussion about briggs that toxic and. Because it has become toxic its very difficult to come back from that ok and i was really worried about that irrespective of how the brigs a question goes you have a toxic political discourse and its really going to be difficult to move away from it alexander macarius in london. This is exactly true and can i just make a further point that of course if we we all risk of seeing a wrong is in political extreme an extremism in britain how do you find political extremism you fully strengthen Democratic Institutions how do you strengthen Democratic Institutions nor by insisting on sorry 8 referendum results that seems to me an elementary that is elementary Democratic Politics you may disagree profoundly with a decision that the british people made in 2016 you may think it was wrong in many respects but in a democracy is that is what people to salute to do then you include them to it and if it turns out wrong or it turns out validly well you deal with that too and then you are in a much stronger position to deal with any concern and you very dangerous person needs that appear on the scene afterwards ok im going to get the last 4 i can still eat because i want everything to be balanced here legally had 42nd look i hear that i dont think all those who support bricks are all fascists racist and i dont think those who oppose it our all you know conspiracy always against the referendum result i think that we had a very simple question referendums are not a good way to govern a country and in the end weve got a very simple binary response to an enormously complex question i think that weve all got to step back from the heat and say you know what we could do whats in the National Interest for our children. In our countrys future and if we can do that then maybe we can get a deal that we can all live with but at the moment the toxicity albrecht see aesop in the democratic reputation integrity of britain and i agree you strengthen Democratic Institutions in relation to high in africa been you dont have to jump you are gentlemen weve run out of time here many thanks to my guests in london and in belfast and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arky see you next time and remember cross talk rules. Is youll be dia a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation community. You going the right way or are you being that. Way. What is true what is faith. In a world corrupted you need to descend. To join us on the death. Or a mate in the shallowest. During the Great Depression which im old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed. And it wasnt it was bed you know much worse objectively than today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. There was a real sense of hopefulness there isnt today todays america was shaped by the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power. Reduced democracy attack solid doubts engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to no im chomsky one set of rules for the rich opposite set rules for. Thats what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will switch will is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as youd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. Hello. This is boom bust broadcasting around the world and covering all aspects of our Global Economy in the 21st century and in your burrito and im christiane washington has a look at what we have in store for today. Due to the berkshires to a lot of critics to how the bill will have to be cooled and we will have to go forward with how much is the right or wrong