Crossed allegan to be curious he is a writer on Legal Affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate jeffrey let me go to you 1st your center of visiting moscow and you are in the steamed historian of the 2nd world war and of the soviet union why is it contested the beginnings of the 2nd world war because most the time its about the outcome of the 2nd world war but we had to stay. In warsaw the russians were not invited the germans were why is that still controversial well the idea front of us for the. Boys of course a massive amount of us were you know 2nd world war 5060000000 people died. Reshaped completely the 20th century well were still living with the consequences of shadow so it is one of the most important of all historical. Its political civil its always been its always be political its always been a matter of not to see sturrock of contestation about what you happen to earth responsible a political blind been light now is particularly controversial at the present moment the actually front of us of course because whats going on in in relations between the Russian Federation and the west because of the unique ukrainian crisis because the propaganda war thats going on between the Russian Federation west and the anniversary of the war particular events associate with it become part of that political struggle ok let me go to you in london it is you know we have as i pointed out a few seconds ago a russian wasnt invited to these the festivities in poland certainly a snub to the russians but the germans were invited it reminds me of the you know the the soviet nazi nonaggression pact ok i mean if one can draw conclusions about the morality of that but the cold political calculation you cant deny but the poles want to seem to have it just one way go ahead alex well the poles have their own interpretation of. The model of soft ribbentrop the russians there is theres also what people like Jeffrey Roberts do which is that you go through history and you decide what you you have im not saying holds the nazi titles to their own interpretation of the modern talk ribbentrop that my own personal view is that given the situation which existed in august 19th 39 a pact between so and germany was probably something that many people in moscow would have decided maint sense to them yeah they failed to forge an alliance with the west right they failed to fortunately once with poland they tried a pact. Which limited as they would have seen it german expansion eastward would have made sense to them the problem is not that there are these divergent opinions about this event it is that in the west increasingly not talking about the historic story im talking about media and talking about politics. We are not only hearing only one view of the maldives of ribbentrop pact each is becoming increasingly the call to dos view which everybody who wishes to be considered respectable and accepted is required increasingly to accept and that i think is dangerous thing because it distorts very badly our understanding of the events let you know not all and it also means that the last of us who were the principle country then suffered the raters losses during that war on and on in effect been disallowed from having an opinion about its own region yes particularly demons since that was the red army that liberated poland from from nazi occupation thats why i want to slightly disagree with alex about paul there are more school remember who liberated the country and they are dismayed by the fact that cemeteries of soviet soldiers who died in poland are being desecrated well the polish government says only removing the symbols what is a memorial site and point you have the emblem of the soviet union or in the fortress the portrait of stardom and you have these scription 3000 soldiers buried here if you take down the sword at them but them you destroy the memory these people are no longer there symbolically and the polish government is doing it right now so there are paulson talks in that situation that are the interesting point is that. I think there are 2 black legends about president putin and his attitude to history in the west the 1st is that he invaded ukraine and you can just go watch the television in the end of 2013 in the beginning of 20145 months long cool and put in only reacted. In march when it became inevitable that the new regime its all installed itself in ukraine but the other black legend is that putin supports the study and his narrative to and you know there are facts if putin supported that narrative would he go in 2000 down together with Prime Minister to the burial site of portrush offices massacred in khaki would he way the wrath of that would he go to vest in 2009 when the diversity of the beginning of the war was said to break that 10 years ago he went there and put in well even though he knew he would be insulted by the hopes you know the polish president then said that poland stabbed in the back from russia in 1939 soviet union from the securing it well at the point that this sorry went in in also was not only russia was not invited even though. It droops would embrace that point also they forgot to invite all the president s of the Central Asian republics even though there were tens of thousands of who died in port they did not invite any of our from yugoslavia even though through goes live it was lost so many people. Cant be compared to poor and the montenegrin. Dukane which said that you know djukanovic has been very anti russian during the last few years so when he said that im quoting him it would be very appropriate to invite someone from russia to show the grand role that the former soviet union played in liberating europe if you hear it from someone like your kind of age that these the 2 things that i always find very interesting is that people pick one moment in time and say its emblematic of the rest of history moving forward but i mean when i think of the at the start of the 2nd world war and subjects were 939. My 1st historical reference is the atrocity committed munich ok it was the western democracies that broke up. And stayed in an. Appeasement to the nazis here i mean if youre in moscow it respectively of your political coloration ok you can say hey you know that here these countries france and britain and then you also also have italy but it was fascist at the time they were the ones that betrayed the International System but no its the pact that was the great trail of the International System thats the people that say that my point is the story of people that dont take that into account are a historical put. Them outside question by referring back to something that alex said when he said well the coast opposer in view of the model well thats. The view. Yes public the polls or some polls are very politicized view of the theres russians Different Countries a political views of the world this planet so if used as politics is also historical its historical truth and youre right the polls old i want to discuss some of the many ways analysis of it back and the Red Army Invasion of eastern poland. And i dont want to discuss munich when poland was part of the end. Of 34. 00 nonaggression pact with germany and i want to discuss the polish collaboration with in the 19th that i want to discuss the obstruction of poland to the trip of last negotiations between the soviet union brit come from britain and from here they want to present poland as a victim pure and simple and everyone else has been guilty and particularly of course the soviet union be being guilty ok as a historian im committed to telling the whole story all aspects of the truth even some aspects seen. No i mean you know ive spent my whole life studying things from the soviet and russian you so obviously i have a certain identification with that point but i want to discuss even things that you know russians Russian Federation putin or whoever im comfortable and that includes discussing. And the collaboration between Stalin Hitler after the pact i mean that theres a very good case to be made for in terms of real politic for the pact itself the 23rd of august thats my position is that theres a much much much more complex argument when you consider what happened after the pattern of the intense collaboration that was between the soviet Union Germany in the aftermath of the nazis of impact in one minute before we go to the break here i mean. Jeffrey makes a very good point here in a its often tailored my point is that you just cherry pick what is selfserving in the present and this is exactly what were seeing and how the the landing at normandy be the end of the war in berlin where you are day you celebrated on this it all politically motivated 20 seconds before we go to break absolutely and can i just come back to point Dimitri Babich makes yes there are many people in poland with diverse opinions if you truly one interpretation of the events of august 19th 39. 00 is the correct 1. 00 and 1. 00 you are not only distorting the development of russian and polish his relations discussion history youre also consolidates. Certain people in poland who have a particular political agenda who always want poland to be as jeffrey correctly said seen as the victim and never want to poland itself that agency and sometimes that actions are going to hold the whole their point were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on revisionism stay with. The tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been played only template for the inside venezuela things room different were going to announce sanctions against petroleum to venezuela associated. In the school of a supplement to. The tempest and political battle song move the cuckoo clock to the moment the focus of the who story isnt new nixon called in Henry Kissinger to tell him that it would not be tolerated that in latin america an alternative economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make the chilean economy scream so wants and making the economy of venezuela screed. Were you some are 3rd. 2009. Thats a question theyll be asking kids and grandkids for years to come now as the 1st episode of the cons a report yes 10 years ago because the report began broadcasting all over the world under the countrys billions of people. But if she warned you didnt i do. Would be sure that there was more of those. New speeches you see me. In the news i mean that is without infringing ball. A lot of. Parts to kids each other. As if. The. Film days doing this is. New. To them. Welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered im Peter Lavelle remind you were discussing revisionism. Ok demon before the break you really want to jump in and youre such a patient man please go well i think that geoffrey rightly said that that was not just the act itself there was the relation between the soviet union and nazi germany in the end of 1000. 00 such a night and it does not forgotten here there was a decision. By the soviet parliament the socalled congress of people had stepped in 1809 which condemned the secret protocols to the pact and which basically asked the soviet union was still the soviet union but all the laws of the soviet union which do not contradict the laws of the Russian Federation are considered to be the go here you know so that the legal norm is steal all parable put in did not cancel it and if you look at his policies and if you look at their official statements from russia theyre all none of them justified the secret protocols well the other problem is that if the west wants to refute the pact completely then the onus should be returned to poor want a survey youll know basically it will stay can buy marshall ski in the in a in an aggressive act started you know there are no more humans to start in russia except in the museum soapbox there are more humans to go all over paul you know he is considered a hero so if we return to the situation before the pact then we should again change the borders in Eastern Europe and these people you know who criticize russia. For you know seemingly justifying that fact they dont want to do it right so they should be consequential the other interesting moment that i think is important you know basically we are forced to defend ourselves because despite our russian desire to say goodbye to the past and to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven the west coast of the reminds us of our guilt and presses you know that bottom about that. For example even said that is a spanish newspaper just yesterday you know this article if the pact. Is responsible for tens of millions of deaths so its not its the pack that is responsible if that has been cold the 2 days could turn out that we would have would be divided between 2 parts so we. Hear what would happen i dont like some junk european history but since that junk to play is used against us then i will use my subjective if you. Invade it not just for want you know im told that future soviet border if he invaded the whole poland to do means to keep you know what would happen to the jews who had been living there for the same very good point you are that would be all that drama that is right there have been what i was going to say if you want to go back to the situation before the 2nd world war then western ukraine should be handed over to poland so. The ok you can condemn the masses of it pact but it did result in the united belorussia and then the united ukraine. Ethnically united. Also had the effect of actually creating a fairly ethnically. Poland poland oh yeah. If you want it again right it was is just cherry picking here so alex i want to change gears a little bit here i mean we still have in 2019 polls arguing about the past and pointing fingers at russia but unfortunately they have passed up or or avoided or ignored historical precedent of reconciliation i mean a lot of people that are watching this program that are keenly interested in history know the history the acrimonious relationship that france and germany had prior to the 2nd world war that reconciliation is a model for the poles and the russians to emulate but there is but for it to be emulated you have to have both parties only one party doesnt want to do it the other one does go ahead alex were all this is exactly so. The point you understand about this is that poland actually is a country that is no longer threatened by russia i mean those who are rules over territory over borders that it was talking about theyve got poland bought the way it was called up and so it very substantially territory in the west which is now of course you know from germany nobody suggesting that but it is going to look somewhat that poland however is very much in russias neighborhood it is playing in my opinion and extremely reckless by supporting people in ukraine which is an area which brings it in confrontation with russia it is talking continuously about russia bigger some sort of the 1st 3 when as i said russia is not in any conceivable sense and in verse 3 and the effect of this is that its creating tension both between poland and russia and between russia and the rest of europe because of course poland is a part of europe now if we can move beyond this and the french and german peril though is i think a valid then we can start to get towards a peaceful situation in Eastern Europe like the one we have in west europe where wars no longer are really conceivable one with perhaps a car coming just as no reason theres no reason in principle why the generosity or break of the war should be a divisive and cursory in principle issue to unify the bursar you know the starting point for that unity is that it was hitlers war hitler or the nazis nazi nazi germany wasnt star it wasnt narcisso it back wasnt even the british and french appeasers or you know the prewar polish government it was hitler it was hitlers war and thats thats where everyone can unite around this is being anti. Him and theyre telling americas presence there actually confirm. Ideally the sins of the past germany and of course like 10 years ago when you had to 75 out of 3 there was a similar ceremony in poland to take was that that was others are not cheap mates and very critical remarks about the nazi at the masses but of course the political situation is judged in 2001 of the year but you have a different polish government and you have a different a different a different context you know the war should be. A focus for unity across europe not a matter of division its a matter of division because of political choices made by political leaders in Different Countries you know i think the fact that the war now is division and not united and it was something about our times because even in the sixtys and the seventys that she was very different and the polish president in his interview today bill cite dont you know that german newspaper when asked about reconciliation with germany he said that basically german and polish i thought it priests back in the sixtys issued that slogan we are forgiven and were asking for forgiveness remember when he was asked if you can use the same formula with russia he said no way im tell you what the russians recognize their aggression in september 1939 and you know russians are emotional people just like course when we see an injustice sometimes the backlash is so strong that with some circles in russia yes it was almost just a fire in the back but its not the government it is theyre part of that Public Opinion that is like that and its a backlash to what we have been seen in warsaw for example all the 1st of september who were invited there marathons the germans the british people who had no role in liberate in poland in. 844945 at least no direct role and also i think its very important to notice that when steinmeier the german president and do the visit at the very last you know this is a polish town destroyed by the german planes in the beginning of the war daughter said that these play should be remembered as a good think of that spain although i do assure ground thats france as lead it so thats i think the Czech Republic now well what about starting out and then grant who suffered more i mean these were median sort of people starve to death in leningrad there were hundreds of thousands of People Killed by the error rate in studying the german. And the porters present is not even president in the military assault on the civilian population youre learning im saying this just to explain why some people in russia have such bit of critics that they go all the way to saying that broadly a probably we should not have cared about the policy in the 1st put you know in the middle back in london you know with every time Geoffrey Robertson and i speak here in moscow eventually the issue of the world at War Television Series the big is made of the 1970 s. Its very interesting i think its the best documentary series ever made ever and but it couldnt be made today because of the politics of toxic politics that we have of today what you could in the 1970 s. I think its a lot about how people use history as a political weapon go ahead oh absolutely i mean the situation in Story Research and scholarship here has deteriorated at least not perhaps Story Research but the way in which it has been communicated to the public its really politicians search and so the media we have moved away from a situation where people are being informed. So why are there improper gaddaar waste which is extremely dangerous and extremely bad and if you want to show. Fundamental it in generations because it was in the 970 s. When that series was made most of the people who were involved in that series in the war. Fought in the war all they had a direct standing and feeling for the wall and even in the worst cold war that was the sense that the soviet union and the west walked alongside each other against this terrible evil now that is dissolved being. Seen stead what you call revisionism when shes actually in this context a. T. C. Information can start 2nd ball will is increasingly gaining. I would be as pessimistic as alan i mean there is reason as he calls it there is this propagandize few of the war but i dont think you should confuse you know the vehemence with which propagate by the politicians and subsection of the media with his exceptions both public and he an improper venue i think theres a lot of pushback pushbike about it that all of common sense about the war itself i think you know the historical memory of the grand alliance and the soviet unions role in the war and that moment of unity in the 1940 s. I dont think thats been completely because so many are so because so many of the other wars the west as far has been so murky and unclear and the goals you know seem to be more propaganda but that was a war that you have to eat can easily come out and i think we should perhaps give people a bit more credit to be able to see a little more to see for this all the propaganda and politics on that note there gentlemen weve run out of time many thanks to my guest here in moscow and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here argue see you next time and remember crosstalk was. Thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the countrys military decision. Every thing came to a complete. The day that i was raped be instructed you know told to shut up for their kill me and i see how it destroyed. Any screamed at me and he made me come in the gram my arm and he write me with his birthing area if you take into account that women dont report because of the extreme retaliation and its probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military is a very very traumatizing thing tat happen but ive never seen trauma like ive seen from women who are veterans who have suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished and be offended and almost 10 year career or chose very invested in and i gave a sex offender who was not even put to justice or put on the registry this is simply an issue of tower and violence male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there to prey upon whether thats a man or when. Its seemed wrong. Just dont hold. Any belief yet to shape out just they become active and engaged with equals betrayal. When something find themselves worlds apart. 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