A judge so they have their own criminal. Laws and you have to accept those laws and those laws. Keep your words. Betray the things like that. And you are pretty safe wrong from way out or stand you have a reputation there right thats why they say to people trust you you earned their trust your reputation in a world like that by just keeping your words or is there Something Else that you have to do for or for them to trust so its its a reputation every time when i meet new people i have to gain their trust over and over again because i always say in the underworld in a criminal well today only trust their own mottos they dont trust each other because your friend the reputation they now know did i keep my words i have had some big cases and i always kept my word so. They know what i do dont know how i do it but again every time you have to gain the trust again so. Tell us how its happening so we can visualize it you sit down to talk to them is it in a fancy place like fancy restaurant in public or by the fireplace at home with a bottle of wine or i know some kind of a strip joint backroom with cocaine all over the table when we were just exchanging messages on the darn lab how do you guys communicate where do you meet to actually do business well 1st of all when i have a leads and i know which one i have to go which criminal i try to find his number his telephone number because theyre not in the yellow pages so that i give them a call and they are in shock because they think how does brant know and they sent an intermediary to me most of the time deas people just run us for the big bosses and they come with. The baklava or whatever and we always meet in dark places i can get a call at 10 at night. And then somebody says mr brents we expect you at that place. In 2 hours so sometimes you dont know who youre going to meet its mostly in dark places its not the day. That we meet in a restaurant because there was always cameras etc there are always afraid that they are being followed so i always have to go to shady places how to twined as standard around our world with illegal art world can somebody working that salivates appraising Department Also do some work on the side for the mafia. You coming close is not that particular example but for example the Museum Directors who have changed the entire collection for fakes. The legal world the legal world and illegal to old media child because the illegal outlawed when you make a fake for example you want to have it sold at sothebys or at christies if you buy antiquities stolen antiquities recently unearthed it in lets say syria which are illegal if you try to sell them at an auction house in the past to have been examples of these 2 worlds coming together and its not for nothing that the cia has said that the illegal oddworld is the 4th biggest illegal criminal. Business in the world so were talking here about many many billions and the thing is the supply of art and antiquities is always small of. What they want so people have to have access to the criminal underworld because they are the persons who can supply route and take for example so. Its a shame he will the articles and to be honest some of the most respected people in the legal world have be have ended behind bus because they were doing things they werent supposed to do so let me ask you this were you average tempted to leave the art piece you found here or south in must of a i mean. Have you ever had an impulse to just own that masterpiece have it for yourself. Of course i had to because so my wallet was stolen and i recovered it and before handing it over i wanted to put it on my wall for one night i thought it was 25000000. 00 worth put it down turns out that it is worth 70000000. 00 this because oh so i headed there on my wall busy and i was looking at it and i thought. It was a little bit tempting to keep it but im not like that you cannot do it is not working to recover stolen off but of course you can imagine when you are watching such because so at your wall that you think. Well i could retire if i would like to. Its tempting but i will never fall for it never say never im just getting so obvious so arent. Objects so are they are there too easy to take care of and they handle painting handling pig tainting is require very good care we have to keep them at the right temperature the packaging statues came in pretty big and have the end where the well known artists are in this things could be more or less easily recognizable hollo to they move such delicate cargo around as horrible its really horrible when you look at a painting a picasso in a museum you see a beautiful painting they see. The dollar bill of 10000000. 00 euros or whatever so sometimes they cut it out of the frame they wall adoptive longside its always the wrong side and they move it in the trunk of a car they hide it in in a woods. Or under the bed of grandmother who has a very High Temperature in a home so its horrible and thats disappointing normally when our thesis break into museum they still are out and the next day they think they can sell it to somebody but you cannot sell stolen art Everybody Knows the piece so then mostly they destroy it but the. Some cases they dont and they start to use it as a payment in the criminal underworld but even then after 5. 00 or 10 years the painting falls thoughts because its not stored will there was a very well known case kind of odd showed it was stolen in 69 in. Sicily a very important painting and somebody from the mafia just said a few years ago that they had stored stored it in a ball. And when they wanted to pick it up it was gone because the ritz had eaten it so we are not talking here with about Museum Curators were talking here about. People who treat a car better than a piece ought to have as well as the piece of art for them its just money and nothing else they doesnt represent any other values and he had a case once where the fake lack had where you prove that an artifact thought to be thousands of years old busy was a forgery now unless it has to certificates from all the bass laps is it a one of a kind case or a can afford to be so good that even experts take it for a real deal its absolutely more common than rare 30 percent on the market is fake either its complete fake or they have messed messed with its this all make heads as you said all the lever tories in the world and all the experts had declared it to be 3000 years old they had put a value of 50000000 euros on it and then i found pictures of somebody covering this head and as you know 3000 years ago there were no pictures you could not take a picture sold this meant that the head was. New so thats showed that all these experts and all these lever authorities they try to do their best but the forges are quite good and sometimes they. The experts busy you can buy says an expert some of the time so that makes it even more complicated the forces are very good and on the other hand who can you trust in the art world because if you can sell a piece for 15000000. 00. You dont ask yourself too much questions is it real or not you can make 50000000 dollars so thats a big problem in the art world all right do you prefer to deal with a high profile cases finding big names are like researching for a less known but still high valley are or explore why and then for pick asses and bottle chalice well it depends busy i found back to visit caught stone will you have stolen from a church in spain World Heritage and not many people know about that the physical arts but when you start to read about it and. Its that was really a dumb brown story there was stone from a church that dated from the 7th century the church was forgotten 4th out more than a 1000 years and it was rediscovered in 1021 so it was a time capsule so when you start to read about antiquities of odds every piece has its own beauty some people prefer because of rembrandt or whatever but there was always a story attached to it there was always a history when you read about it every pieces is beautiful i can tell you 11. 00 example there was this Porcelain Service which im normally not interested in that was stolen in world war 2 from a jewish family and i we trace it in the collection of the royal dutch family which was quite a big scandal. No money i was not interested in parcel in but when you start to search such a beautiful piece and you find it and you read about it it becomes something. Beautiful so every time now that i go to a museum i look 1st at the fossil im. Right after the way i take a short break right now a little while back well continue talking to arthur brand detective about the story and about the dark side of the art market stay with us. To get up off the ground serve begin to. Hurt them freeze on the sounds of an mit grown man with mislead essentially. Twisted away from the officer. Of his group. The obviously did they kind of lunge for the web in once missed and then when it happened on trace one as i didnt i never saw any contact with. Any kind went back to where they were so the answers back here there are again 15 feet apart at this point and thats when the officer has gone in the. Wrong. All. To shape out. And in again. The trail. Find themselves worlds apart. She still looks for common ground. Now look what youve seen in the 1st. Quarter. What. You. Did to mr ellsworth. The its a studio actually the person who goes to revoke. Still cant speak. There were back with our art detective no and Indiana Jones of the last arts talking about the shadow art market so i just recently found an actual cast of stolen ears ago from a saudi and say you heard the rumors of the painting being used as a collateral and it dutch underworld got in touch with the people all thats all they were there and basically had it delivered right to your home but why would they just do that i mean drop it for free you must see it like this in many cases when its stolen is being used in the underworld as a payment so one criminal owes. Money and some of. This because it was from my grandma though its very beautiful. Im going to going to bring you the money in a month but they dont come so disguised things i have this because oh and then he starts to sell it and people tell him to stoughton be careful so then he do sustain tricks with the next criminal and it goes around and around and around and sometimes when i know who has it at a certain moment i approach them and i make them an offer they cant refuse i tell them look. This because so is stolen i know you have it i know you are not the thief you had nothing to do with the theft. And we have the might be a way to wait with the op but what might happen then my question is if this is like a well known technique where people just gave paintings the collateral instead of money and then he figured out its stolen and the one who owns the money never comes back with money and its a its a common thing youre saying so criminals must be aware of that so why is it still like a thing of paying off if you know that you cant sell that painting and if you know that probably theyre giving you the painting and the money will never follow yeah well in some cases one criminal cannot pay the other criminal so the other criminals well then give me because whatever anything better than. No money so there are a lot of reasons why this is being accepted as a payment in the not only in the underworld also in some legal deals paintings are used as payments of course not stolen paintings but theyre being used as payment so its there are people who have a nice all this collection who go to a bank and ask for a loan. For this for this. Painting statues are commonly used as. To get money for a loan or whatever or spain means and the underworld has adapted that also does this. Follow this this thing out they did it so the picasso you found. Is really to have changed up to 20 owners before you recovered it in cases one artworks are tracked after decades of disappearance is it even possible to define who had stolen them in the 1st place no and thats one of the reasons why i think we in holland are quite successful the dutch police because you know after 2 years of 5 years or 10 years the piece has been changed and so many times that the current owner has no idea he might know who gave it to him but it could also be an unknown criminal group so you never come back to the previous the original thieves so forget about debts what we did in holland is after a certain period of time lets focus on the arts to recover the art and not go after the thieves and dont forget most cases this art is stolen without anybody get murdered or anybody can hump is quite like a. Normal burglary only dead in this case they dont steal your television they steal it because all but officially its just a burglary so after a couple of years 10 or 20 years its not about getting the thieves youll never get them probably the statute of limitation has ended so you cannot even prosecute them so then the focus should be get the yacht back and especially because these guys carry these around in the trunk of the cars so. You have to hurry to get this back at all because if not its. So in 28. 00 the United Nations warned that isis was doing some industrial scale looting in iraq and syria and the general concern is that the stolen artifacts could surface whether on the black market or even legitimate auction houses did you encounter any objects of this kind in your work or are they easier to smugglers to these is for smugglers to get in. Absolutely i was warning for this already in 2006 when i wrote a book and i already mentioned it nobody took it serious but now its quite serious they call it brought on ticks the problem is this. These groups like the taliban al qaeda and i says they. Conquer a certain area which is full of treasures so days start to dig and sell these treasures on the black market and they use that money for funding for an endo attacks and the problem is this busy the greek face for example is not that theyre only found in greece because 2000 years ago greece was an empire they traded with everybody so the greeks face that is found for example in syria or greek statue which might come from ices its very hard to prove that this greek face comes from syria and not from lets say greece or italy so there were a lot of ways for these people to falsify paperwork etc so then it comes on the markets legitimate and people buy its museums have bought it in the post you can find at auction houses you can find. Deals we made a few documentaries about that with hidden camera and some of these of the less confessed that these pieces came. Recently from lets say afghanistan so dead is a quite a big trades and busy it says big. Cause they used these beautiful busy treasures from the beginning of civilization from 234000 years old they use it to phones to destroy civilization so how sad is that so you actually had a case oh stolen artifacts to 2 stones relieved from the church known as sundown muddy and the ladder that you returned in this case to save couldnt sell their release for what they were so they sell them as garden ornaments could they rock in their own artifacts also are now being sold as some exotic nothings like how hard would it be to actually track them down in someones garden for instance very hot because there was a difference between the case you just mentioned these physical it will yes from spain believe they were World Heritage there were no pictures existed so they could not sell it any more for what it was they sold it has got a moments but with the stuff that is coming from the soil in lets say syria these pieces have been in a sword for 2000 years no pictures exists so nobody knows that they have been just on earth it lets say last year oh so dispy pieces come to the markets lets say in germany they put a paper there touch a paper 2 is in which is stated displease belongs to an old english noble family. 50 years ago and they sold it in 1982. So then people think this piece is legends its not stolen recently from syria so. Its quite easy its very difficult for the police to prove that a certain piece which is now being offered an option. Was recently illegally excavated in syria its very very difficult back in 215 you were working on the recovery of 24 paintings from ukraine now the museum that the paintings were stolen from offered the creative side at home percent fine or city but they expected to have to or some attacks fell apart back then and only 5 out of 24. 00 paintings were returned i mean how often does the money issue get in a way of bringing the stolen art back what happens with art works in this case. Well many cases you know in this case to Ukrainian Military who had. In their possession and the Ukrainian Secret Service that was involved to. Lets say 20 people have possession of these stolen paintings out of the netherlands so what happens these people. Negotiate with these paintings and they blow it up they say these paintings are worth 5000000. 00 and the next 810000000. 00 and then the 50000000. 00 in their minds so they spend this 50000000. 00 already amongst each other and i come to negotiate on the set look were not talking about here about 50000000 but about half a 1000000. So then they dont say oh well there you have them though then they get his start to show to start to tretton you so money always come comes in the way of these cases unfortunately people always think that when they steal money they still are they can make money but in most cases so let me ask you something you are saying that you dont make much money out of this trade im actually really surprised that youre not like super rich you deal with artifacts that cost tens and hundreds of millions of dollars i mean how come theres no money in it for you well i owe my money with lot of things i advise collectors i said 30 percent only of market is fake i thats my job i help jewish families to recover stolen and well for too i write books i give lectures thats where i make my money and these big cases that make headlines all over the world. Its not thats not about money im normally dont get paid maybe an hourly rates and thats because. I dont there was stolen from somebody else i am not entitled if there was a reward im not entitled to the reward its not me who is the governments own or the previous owner so those stories. There are for example many cases ended in the dutch case of the dutch museum you just talked about which turned up and in the ukraine these stolen paintings they were not insurance. The dust was he was not very rich is a small museum so when they ask me to do it they pay me an hourly rates and im happy with that and when i sometimes go because for all my wall what 70000000. 00 for a nights it gives enough satisfaction and im not dying from hunger or Something Like that or i make an error a sharing only because i was worried for you anyway its going to a really wonderful interview thank you so much for this insights such an interesting topic good luck with everything were talking to our survey and our tax haven historian discussing his most famous cases and the shady ways of the underworld art market thats it for this edition of said think ill see you next. Im. Ready ready ready ready ready sure they need to stop it for continuing to grow. I just never know very good about the idea of bringing it into the world because i didnt feel like things were in very good shape that a life was just going to be a lot of software programs. Theres no reason were more. You take things that are to me the truth is a myth Something Else that you need to get rid of to everybodys scared to talk that is certifiable is really dependent on us addressing this issue and if we can even talk about it every chance even have a conversation or that it then. Were in trouble ready. Join me every thursday on the alec simon chill and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sport im show business ill see you then. Why a paradise with some all year round turned into a round the experimentation field but agricultural chemicals we know that these chemicals have consequences they are major here tens theres no question otherwise why would that the Chemical Company workers themselves be geared up and suited up locals attempt to combat the on regulated experiments that often in day you have many of these people one foot into the biotech pharma and the other foot in the government regulatory bodies this kind of collusion is reprehensible while the battle goes on the chemicals continue to. Always in hawaii and its people so one has to ask the question whether there is a form of Environmental Research going on in hawaii whether these Companies Feel they can get away with votes because the people have less political power. Chargeable just. Nothing compared to. The headlines this hour nazi u. S. President ial hopefuls fails to make it through to the next round of democratic debates and despite becoming the most searched candid online is not questioning the d. N. C. Selection process. The frenchman threw paid to losing his battle to protect people in his time from harmful pesticides we get reaction from locals and i think the government isnt doing the job theyre the 1st to see that there should be no pesticides and they do nothing with routine to pass the sites we did during testing the amount of the best sites with ground was alarmingly high. From jesus to you