Transcripts For RT CrossTalk 20240714

Owen will be here with more of todays top stories crosstalk is next though on our to international and in the u. K. And ireland it is sputnik stay with us. Hello and welcome to crossfire where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle Prime Minister Boris Johnson did you ever think you would say that it seems we live in a world where anything can happen now after all who would have thought briggs it would destroy the premiership up to resume the breaks that process do the same to Boris Johnson. Talking bojo and brags that im joined by my guest we jasper in london he is a former deputy mayor of london in lancaster we have no. Arnett is a senior lecturer in politics at Lancaster University and in plymouth we crossed the james tweedy he is a journalist and commentator on World Affairs all right gentlemen gentlemen cross roles in effect i mean you can jump in in any time you want and i always appreciate it and i also know its weltering in the u. K. So well everybody dont get hyperventilated here because i dont want anybody to faint ok let me go to james 1st in there in plymouth james ok we have a new Prime Minister a figure that most people know some very much like some obviously dont and hes larger than life ok thats all nice and fine thats good for media its good for clicks its good for eyeballs but how does it change the equation for britain these a v. Brags it how can Boris Johnson avoid the fate of may go ahead james well though i think the tories have seen the rising on the wall about brits thanks to the party and their. Success in the recent elections so the tory policy a very very good party is going to. Their votes. Thats where they get most of its. As when they got rid of the moment now or is johnson hes not entirely trustworthy on. About. Ensuring with the Political Polarization that so that we will draw all agreement and the political that the regime doesnt really mean anything its the road remember thats legally binding and thats what the problem is. His election hes been elected to. The un. And to say that stories from electoral. Ok let me go to lee here but lee when a good guess really the biggest problem in dealing with brags that at least when it comes to parliament is that both parties were divided on the issue within each party here can Boris Johnson unite the tories because if he can do that he might be able to poach from people across the aisle as it were here it really gets down to how he manages the party in my not correct go ahead lee well it does if youre playing fantasy politics if youre playing real politics then you know that the irish backstop the European Union is implacable position. And you know the record of mendacity and tomfoolery of Boris Johnson then you really wouldnt put your house on the phone to have boris being able to unify either his party or the country there are lots of people in the tory party with deep emotional scars from previous encounters with Boris Johnson some of whom are sitting around the cabinet table. A cabinet full of deeply ambitious and venal politicians boris being the lead cheerleader amongst them but the extent to which he could maintain unity within that cabinet under the sweltering pressure that hes going to come under in brussels and the European Union i think will not unite the tory party but will break it into mark the same question here i mean i think we have a new personality ok a 10 downing street but i dont see the strategy moving forward ok to resume he says to resumes which are all deal is dead ok so what is his deal they can appeal to not only his own party but to the public at large i mean i studied this very carefully im actually getting very bored with it because i dont see the needle being moved here what can he do that no one else has done mark. Ah well he can certainly do something that nobody elses turn and that is he can prove. To be false or true the position that hes put forward to his party in the British Public and that position is that the reason may only fail because she didnt really believe in black sets and so far i think people on both sides of the aisle on this question probably have reason to be satisfied about what how things are going because hes assembled a team virtually every single one of whom wholeheartedly seem to believe or say they believe in brets it so lets see what happens bring it on and i think that obviously the downside of this is that if there is. No deal broke set and parliament is sidelined that we have all sorts of terrible constitutional issues that might happen i think in the end that mr johnson is not the kind of person who will be able to do that kind of thing i think that hes going to go to brussels his real tactic here his strategy is to hope that people in the e. U. Think heres a man who really knows what hes talking about rather who believes in what hes talking about so for once were going to have to really negotiate seriously this is where everything comes to the crunch whereas mrs may we managed to fob her off hes hoping that theyll be movement within the. Process and that he wont therefore have to go through with the no no deal threat so in terms of the unity however i think that the danger for people moderate people in the conservative party is that theyre going to be accused of being defeatists and not patriotic thats mr johnsons card hes talking up all this optimism isnt stuff daring his critics to say to produce reasons for not being quite so mindlessly optimistic and he will then turn around and say to the British Public these are people who dont believe in your country and that is a card that will work very well. In england very poorly in scotland and Northern Ireland not the voters it seems quite a lot of them like to distort distortions of reality ok well you know you can you can have you know you could have been to see as im a certainly hands that he said we need optimism he certainly has that but james how does that make briggs it happened i mean the European Union all through this process and i think to resume was the worst person to negotiate because she was a remainder and that why did you said to remain there to do brags that i mean that was ridiculous ok and we got it and she deserved her fate ok but the European Union is going to make this is painful as possible for you guys and i dont see why they get to change their tune i mean they can they broke her and they want to break him if necessary go ahead james well everyone talks about their eyes met his red line but i dont have any red lines that you want to brussels and commission. Yes of course the e. U. Wants to make this thing. Either create a situation where it doesnt or you get name only which is what it is. Or where. The. Drop becomes. The imposition of trade barriers between terrorists. Ok why do they want to do that while the e. U. Was already in the tries. Before we proceed to leave. It was in a crisis because no western countries the wealthy. North west and. Some in europe and Eastern Europe on the republican model and colonies and theres a lot of and there are a lot of political. Cultural. Barriers. And so it was we were in a crisis and it gets out. And then. And there might there may be other countries who might want to undermine the end that is the reason why one of the reasons why the e. U. Wants to make this as painful as possible we i mean they always go back to the default position of w t o rules ok i mean if Boris Johnson wants to succeed and i have to believe he wants. To do much better than to resume when you were assigned an entire group of people to work with that goal of w t o rules because there are good theres not going to be another deal the deal is that the European Union is going to accept is already on the table the parliament has dismissed it 3 times Boris Johnson isnt going to go down that path i mean what new dispy saying we have a Kitchen Cabinet its a rules work on it youve got 99 days go ahead lee. I dont think so i think were w t o rules. Are no deal hard brick say and they would be only to the only country in the world operating on the meet those rules and they are sob each in their implications for the country so he asked a realistic option a toll and i also think that the extent to which you know the kind of xenophobia sentiment we see abroad for Little England plucky spending against the assembled holds of the European Union with their. You know paneuropean genda is a is a a a scenario that has been developed and pursued in and propagandized in the British Press the decades and funny enough it will be the kind of irrationality that flows from such sentiment that will see this country commit economic suicide by electing a Prime Minister whos not only incompetent as hes recorded in london shows us but has an opportunity of such grand proportions that even his brother joe johnson who resigned over the brecht seat was pretty convinced by Boris Johnson to come back in government and its partly signed up to probe agenda so here we have the chance of boys who can spin around on any given issue 360 degrees in a heartbeat and both obviously like sacrifice the Economic Prosperity of the nation but they said let me just out this conclusion the tories are not even following the global big business agenda because if the tories were following that agenda it had some rationale in terms of their ideological position and their long Time Association as being the big hitters for big business now even though Boris Johnson is waving Corporate Tax cuts in front of them this is. Paling to significance with the man from business that we have better arrangements than the no deal there isnt a Serious Business leader with dead money who is. Agreeing with the position of a no deal so its counted today their constituency base its its its fed on an emotional hes not here. The ice fed by are irrational xenophobia out there is no logical conclusion other than to this particularly not really mean generally the election of bush johnson we have to get a hard break gentlemen and after that hard break well continue our discussion on bojo and regs and stay with. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond sure and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business im showbusiness ill see you have an. Officer. To get up off the ground to serve. Themselves on the sounds of maybe. Manly mislead essentially. His. Wish to do away from the office or. The arms or did they kind of lunge for the web in one smiths and there would have been done she swung and i didnt i never saw any contact. Any kind went back to where they were so the answers back here theyre try again 15 feet apart at this point and thats when the officer is gonna need to turn 3. What politicians do. Put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be president. Some want. To go right to the pros this is like the 3 of them or cant be good. Interested in the war. Welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered Peter Lavelle reminder were discussing bojo and breaks it. Ok lets go back to mark here i still havent gotten an answer to my question how is Boris Johnson going to achieve this if hes going to achieve it now i mention with lee. Rules ok thats one way hard brags that ok but then which all agreement is off the table because it was old it down 3 times and humiliated a Prime Minister ok so can you tell me what the 3rd very into is here does he know and if he does know he cant support a friend ok it was good. Last you got it you got ahead of me on that one let me go to mark levin to you got me on that one ok go ahead mark. Well there is. A certain amount of discussion going on about changing the Withdrawal Agreement that relates to the buck stop which were to really put a border between no that and the republic of ireland have actually having that kind of border between the e. U. And the bulk of britain having the irish sea in other words changing the bucs the problem to a kind of island problem theres a. All these got the johnsons very keyed on to technological changes. In our 50 years on putting a man in the moon but we cant sort out these are the arrangements regarding the movement of goods surely human ingenuity in this new optimistic here of jobs is and we should be able to find a solution to that really i think the only thing but the only thing on offer is sheer force of personality plus a certain amount of blackmail i wonder if mr johnson is going to even though the you are quite happy that the divorce settlement 39000000000 i believe that thats going to be paid over years rather than all at once perhaps some threat to look at that again and whittle down that figure hes hoping that through really psychological. That. You could change the deal it sounds like black magic thats black magic youre to actually get the token solitaires ok let me go back to the game here i like it now were going to get to the point of this whole debate here and to see ok well fine ok but fantasy does it the fantasy doesnt usually have much to do with policy or good policy that is here james james said the general election thats been its in the offering here general election. Theres a general election before the well it doesnt have to be its not really that. Parliament probably cant stop being. Stop us leaving on. About what weve. Got equally and no deal or. Any more anyway because. Weve sorted out a lot of. Buy that some trade deals with a number of countries like norway and south korea in the last couple years thats not if we dont lose interest were nowhere near salting out trade deals with any companies weve got preliminary agreements top further discussions theres still some probably stand still since another point is that there are a number of labor. You are. Maybe 10 or 20 who vote against their own and most of the government or certainly were. On an emotion that will actually wreck everybody selected in the run up to a general election. Then you can also have a media selected as we speak. And that. Is. The labor party although you knew going down there youre going down a path that i think its really important here let me go back to mark in lancaster how have both parties made major parties fared through all of this here because Boris Johnson has the opportunity to bring some unity to the tories but what about labor because labor has been very well its been waffling a lot on this here but i and i suppose if i was jeremy carbon i would do the same thing watch your opponents destroy themselves and thats one political tactic here but how both parties have been very damaged i think you could say through this entire process go ahead mark. Yes well theyll be an awful lot of mainstream labor politicians just tearing their hair out at the moment this is a god sent opportunity for any credible party of opposition and labor is in its own internal chaos and if it wasnt for the fact you could say the internal chaos is about very different issue of allegations of antisemitism but its in chaos over breakfast as well and mr coleman has been dragged kicking and screaming to a position which sounds a bit more like remain but he doesnt sound at all sincere on this and thats because he is a british so you have a party that should be ready to cash in having been converted to pro european ways in the 1980 s. That far back its now divided again just at the moment when it needs to be united and the beneficiary of this is the liberal democrats the one thing i would say thats really dangerous for the cities in the johnson camp is that where ours the party and the conservative party theres absolutely no love lost the tall and their vote is likely to be split if they do face off in a general election i have a very strong hunch that the remain camp is going to be a lot more efficient in a general election thats ensuring that the city with the best chance of winning will succeed in various constituencies so a general election is something that the conservatives may have a very mixed feelings about labor im afraid they should be just looking at it is an open goal but the chances are under mr colburns leadership whatever his virtues that they would blaze the ball over that open goal and the british politics would just be completely chaotic and unstable into the foreseeable future ok we have both parties failed the the electorate because they voted to leave ok and parliament and both parties have failed to execute on the peoples will here so this is really the crux of it for me too i mean im kind of big gnostic about it but i believe in democracy ok it was a vote. Winning clear and it was decisive ok for a Large Campaign like that so i think its really incumbent upon them because if they cant get a deal through then theyve failed the people and that is a very good that will damage the the believe people have in the political system and its pretty damaged right now all through the western world what can bore us johnson do to turn that around beyond being optimistic which i guess we all want to feel optimistic but i dont see how that it moves the needle at all go ahead lee. You know the only realistic optimism is an incredibly dangerous character is speak to have where your playing high stakes politics is soon that you have a greater control over external inventors than you than you do its that you have talents which you do not have. And they can be absolutely catastrophic i think it poses an existential challenge to both parties that is absolutely clear im neither. Labor all tory have really taken the opportunity to borrow their strategic position that would benefit them but also align fully with the interests of the country labor is prevaricated too much it is armed and its not been clear in its messaging and i couldnt stand the frustration in the party i think when we come to a general election the question is going to be binary what is going to be pro bricks or bricks and i mean thats a good position for labor to be in even if they lose the election because even if they lose a general election if we come out of European Union without a deal so it will be the recession and the Economic Impact that the tide of popular opinion will turn when people feel in their pockets we could be in for another general election much sooner than people think so either you seem porton for labor to stick to a principled position and the fact is you cant extricate yourself from a 60 year relationship with a European Union that has got by its on time levels of bureaucracy legislation and policy and simply get a working power to get it together and fix that and resolve it overnight it takes decades to unravel that European Union relationship. I dont see anybody being able to do that any time soon ok james weve talked about labor and weve talked about the tories how does the brigs in party play into this because they really kind of. A dramatic arrival on the scene here what you all can they play in all of this here and can the tories in the in the breaks of party Work Together i mean that would be a very interesting combination. Well nigel farage is. Going to. And this is why and that is someone who at least sounds like. Right now its tories and the brits the maid and the lecturer of the law and it would be a joke if you have a local organization. And you. Know im. Like. I dont like you so you know. About the environment you know. Theres a big one here is a big big here and i get here and. I love this is just this judge has already announced a visit by a boat a potties for oddities are wonderful yeah your carry ons are. Just as opposed to that suppose i bought in is only a nice postmodernism absolutely baby. So we possibly have seen the mess theyve gotten sounds into it and theyre saying it now labors policy is not they dont know what the problem is. You sure go because you said i he said. Told me. That kaberle grazing moved out by by farache i think farache i think i think that boris has moved to the right to compensate for farache you could if you could never move to the right hot enough for some of these people and i think the i. G. Fire on art will do for boris as they did for man cameron ok let me go tomorrow let me go to mark shane and i want to go to mark mark is going to finish it out for us here how does this all and mark is are going to be. Transparent here its a trail of tears ok how is it all and i mean we have where we have 99 days and a lot of optimism how does it all end mark go ahead. Well if you look at 1st of all id say napoleon where he lives today would be very flattered to be compared to nigel for. I think if were talking about this 99 day thing to paraphrase t. S. Eliot this is the way the british politics basically the pieces reassemble not with a whimper which it was in a way and to reason maybe but with the time and say this is bringing all these underlying things to the surface you could say if you think that remain is the right option this is a chance to luntz the boy live this and this and to europe in sun cements and to actually get britain into a more realistic course in the world equally by sheer force of will and also the very interesting populist measures mr johnson on the domestic front is suggesting sorting out care for the elderly getting rid of all sterrett see all these kind of things which are not lasting money problems if this kind of thing is is going to be a no ok i have to jump in here to get weve all run out of time here hes going to have to solve all problems at the same time many thanks to my guests in london lancaster and in plymouth and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time remember. Thats my life and i started 40 years ago and ive been living in the luxury areas life ever cheaper money ever since literally not having to work a day in my life because they yeah says 4 years ago ive gone straight out. Says he stressed to know but mostly to say that the british wasnt at the bowl of bullshit out that he had the most to. Stop the show was so youll see that the statistic is hes a cia which is what all shall. Get which book i thought which was enough. Look what youve seen in a response to check or a moment of me at what you. Want to go to the source of your might your bone structure be. It the mr hazlewood supporter until put them to rest your spirit for this interview but you believe these that its a studio actually of course in a personal cause believe them could or should stop them spinning. Expressed sure. That if you really need them to believe that out of any kind of united they go no need to. 6 thank you very. Much you dont have to back. You know you crazy im from book one were going to. Millions and millions of years to grow out of the fast mighty waters of the Pacific Ocean a liquid fire