Church now will transform the global catholic. Palmo warman survivor and fighter against sexual abuse welcome to the show its great to have you with us today so you have been complaining for accountability of clerical child abuse for more than 20 years what kind of change have you made over this time what are your successes. Well i think our gracious success has been finally exposing the fact not just that the abuses happened on us on the scale that weve been talking about for many years but that its endemic within the Roman Catholic church that its systemic. And that the cover up of abuse by Church Authorities was a willful intended program that was designed to protect the institution its power and its money and that it was operated and directed by the vatican at the global level and that its been a global cover up i think thats something weve never really clearly exposed so were going to go through all of that step by step but 1st ireland is a very catholic country when you came out publicly about your deal when you see at the vatican where you supported by the irish or catholics around the world. It was a makes generally speaking when i when very public. I made a documentary with a European Television station in 2002 and when that aired there was a very very strong in support of response from people here in our in our into particular but of course there were people who didnt want me to speak about what was happening i mean i got people warning me that i should spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder i got Death Threats but in the main i got a huge amount of support i think people were uphold not just stop the the the crimes of rape and abuse that reflected on me and many others by the priest in my own case with more by the cover up of those crimes the facilitation of the collusion with them and that we were able to expose that by catholic bishops and indeed by the vatican itself so how hard was it for you to make your case how did church resistance change things for you were you prevented from speaking out. What was i mean 1st of all it was very difficult to get to the point where i could challenge my own. I suppose internal inhibitors the the the own spoken authority of the church wasnt something that was external to me it was internal so when i 1st start to think about in the mid 1009000 about 1904 about doing something about what had happened to me more than a decade earlier. My forced instinct was to contact the bishop from as opposed to contacting the police so i had bought into this idea that the church was the ultimate authority and that it was it was to them that i needed to look to thankfully i didnt instead i decided about 6 months later in february of 1905 that i would make a complete complaint directly to the police here in arlington thats what i did. The priest who would abuse me the priest who raped me when i was 14 years of age was known to be a sexual abuser when he was ordained a priest the church knew about his offending behavior and they were doing to him he continued to abuse from these ordination right through his entire career as a priest and he was still a priest and active ministry when i went to the police in 1905 he was only removed from ministry immediately after the the churchs response to what i and others were alleging was to 1st of all deny deny that abuse happened then to deny the idea that they knew anything about abuse of the that they understood us and when they finally had to acknowledge that abuse was happening they tried to suggest this was just a few bad apples this was about a couple of you know bad people who had infected the priesthood and were doing terrible things. When we called from when i campaign for accountability on the part of the Institutional Church there was an effort to suggest that the church was above the law that the state could not investigate the church that the church was protected from any kind of station vesta geisha and indeed the church asserted here in ireland and its done across the world but their own rules canon law the internal law of the church is superior to the law of the state in any jurisdiction. Within which they operate so we have to get over that and of course there were all the accusations of being dishonest of being deceitful of being anti catholic of trying to undermine the church. Of being a liar of being a fan to the return of my personal integrity all of that kind of thing was so based on everything that you have cite right now are these the only reasons or is there like Something Else that actually makes victims of child sexual abuse choose to report the crime many years later like you did as well. Well i suppose the 1st thing that ive worked also clinically with with people have been sexually assaulted my background actually as a psychotherapist working with the terms of Sexual Violence ive never worked with an adult or child victim of Sexual Violence who hasnt somehow spoken of what happened to them now in the context of children they speak of their smore behaviorally them verbally because they dont have a language to explain whats happened to them i mean even when i was 14 years of age this was back in 1981 there wasnt a language available to me to allow me to understand never mind explain part of happened and what this man was doing it was an incredibly frightening confusing threatening time in my life when suddenly the act that he perpetrated upon me. Called into question everything that i believed about the world i mean up until that point ive been told some fairly fundamental things as fact warm. The church was good and the priests above all were good and were never to be questions they were absolutely good to that if i behaved myself and was a good person everything would be ok 3 that adults would only ever hurt me if i did something wrong so therefore if ive been heart i must have done something wrong and then suddenly im raped by a Catholic Priest the was there was no way i could understand that never mind articulate and i was so shamed by part of happened. I internalized all of that shame and that silenced me now that was me at 14. At 6 at 7 at 8 at 10 its going to be even more difficult for children to speak of victims of Sexual Violence carry the shame of society the shame that society on the perpetrator of the crime. And that shame becomes very internalized and its very silencing. I should also say that its very threatening to speak out you know if one knows that the perpetrator and the institution around the perpetrator is incredibly powerful and at the time and up until relatively recently the Catholic Church was more powerful than the state of the conflict church was more powerful than our parliament when it came to what happened within our society. Its a fairly intimidating institution to challenge so were now seeing a flurry of sex abuse scandals around the Catholic Church once again most of that church that has been accused of covering up sexual abuse to German Church is mired in the number of sexual abuse scandals theres another case in france some more american scandals pumping up with federal law torn is a lot of what is behind the latest wave. Well youre just seeing more and more revelations i mean i think whats significant finally is that were seeing state authorities federal authorities in the United States have announced that theyve opened up the department of justice has opened up an investigation into pennsylvania and its believed that investigations into other states at the federal level will also follow. But there has for whatever reason been a reluctance on the part of states to step in and investigate these crimes and in particular these cover ups that finally happened in australia recently one of our big successes from 2002 on was winning those inquiries here in arent so i campaign for an inquiry known as the firms inquiry in 2002 but finally got up and running in 2003 and reported in 2008 and it was one of the 1st such inquiries to look at the role of both the church and state authorities in the management of concerns our suspicions our complaints of child sexual abuse perpetrated by Roman Catholic priests here in ireland and that found very deep and systemic failures within the church but also within state law and policy and practice but also pointed the finger at the vatican so states need to step in and thats only happening more recently but of course whats also critical is that as soon as a victim speaks as soon as somebody decides to speak publicly provides an opportunity or an opening for all there is to speak. And thats been very significant its you know im im 2124 years more nearly 25 years at this point since i went public and spoke about this for the 1st time and it never ceases to amaze me that every time i speak on this i get contacted by people who say me too who say that. I never thought i could speak about this but now i think that i have to. So its the opening up of us really the breaking open of silence allows people to speak but also the the new laws that are being. Made for this kind of cases have a lot of loopholes in them for instance in pencil ennia which like you mentioned has seen the. It is way for child sex abuse revelations a law is in the works which on one hand will allow the dems to sue their predators even if the abuse is beyond the statute of limitation but on the other the victim will only be allowed to sue a person not an institution so what sense will this law make for a victim of their predators may be bad by the time anyway and theres no one to bear responsibility for what happened to them well i think thats what we have to be very clear about the critical obligation of states so if we look at what International Law says about states its for the state to guarantee access to justice and remedy for victims of Human Rights Violations and obviously the rape or Sexual Assault of a child or of any person is a human rights violation so in however a state is going to put in place a remedy to guarantee access for justice that has to guarantee access and unblocking. Remedies involving institutions is problematic but i can also see why from the point of view of taking on the Roman Catholic church it might be important to begin to identify named individuals because for example the Catholic Church has so many different personalities legal and otherwise that it can be very hard to identify how the institution is to be sued so when i decided i would sue the pope i had to work out what am i going to sue the pope as the bishop of rome im going to sue him as the supreme pontiff of the Roman Catholic church im going to sue the legal personality of the holy see which has observer status of the United Nations im i going to sue the Vatican City State and him as head of the Vatican City State which personality will i pursue and weve seen in australia and even efforts to do the same here in our land where Catholic Diocese of effectively said well you can sue us because we dont exist we are not legal persons theyre not incorporated they dont exist as a legal entity as with any kind of an statute and so they can be very very difficult to pursue. The church has been very good for 2000 years of developing structures and mechanisms that allow it to be accountable to find a way to not be held accountable for its failings on its own crimes and it can be tricky to find laws to design laws that can hold a property accountable but its the obligation of states to do the. Right were going to take a short break right now while were back well continue talking to a war. Fighter against sexual abuse talking about the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church stay with us. Pete. Seem wrong. To shape out this day. And in. The trail. Find themselves worlds apart. To look for common ground. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy. Let it be an arms race. Spearing dramatic. Move. I dont see how that strategy will be ready. To sit. I started on wall street 40 years ago and been living in the luxury life. Literally not having to work a day in my life because. 40 years ago gone straight up. The line. So close. To going to be closer look for. More people. Interested in the water. Back was called a warm and survivor and fighter against sexual abuse discussing the question still latest revelations of child sex abuse for a Catholic Church a call one pope francis was elected in 2013 he called for Decisive Action in tackling the issue of child sexual abuse do you feel that the action has been taken. Frankly no i think francis has been enormously disappointing on this issue and i dont say that with any pleasure i admire much of what he has to say on a whole range of social justice issues from refugees to people on the margins to poverty. To discrimination i think hes a strong advocate for a whole range of issues but on this issue hes been hes been enormously disappointing for example when he went to chile a couple of years ago a country thats been really blighted by revelations of sexual abuse and cover up of those crimes within the Roman Catholic church there and when victims spoke out about the appointment of a bishop who had known who was known to have covered up the abuse of a perpetrator by a priest rather than honestly respond to that charge and address that the pope accused the victim of spoken up of slander he accused them of comedy which means slander and he attacked their integrity now afterwards when there was a huge public reaction to that he rolled back and said oh well i havent been properly briefed by bishops and ive been misled by them before i before i travel to well you know thats either dishonest or its incompetent the vatican itself had carried out investigations into that case as early as 2011 and for many decades now it has been an obligation on bishops to report any allegation of the sexual abuse or rape of a child or minor to the vatican which decides how that case is to be handled and much of happen next so the vatican had chapter and verse on modern happened in chile francis knew he was going to a country where the abuse issues were a big deal so he either didnt bother to get briefed or he was briefed and decided to be disingenuous and dishonest in how he responded there none of that look schooled well how do you think that public repentance will help the problem how will it stop perverts from molesting boys and girls. Well i think 1st of all its i can understand why some people might fixate on the idea of repentance almost from a religious perspective what im interested in is truth and justice and frankly love in its in its pop in its truest possible meaning and the kind of principles that churches are meant to be grounded in and the values that theyre meant to reflect so i have no desire to see pope francis or any bishop or cardinal or any Church Leader humiliated. Are exposed in that way but i do want them to do is to stand for truth to stand for justice to reveal the facts of what was known of what they knew of how their institution and they responded to these crimes and to make themselves properly accountable including before the law i wonder if the pope is doing as much as he can in a framework that and a paradigm that he exists for and says i know that in february hes going to simone as Bishops Council to a council to discuss the sexual abuse problem i mean i dont know if thats going to change anything but hes doing that and he has said recently that hes asked for its our kind of bearing fruit that the number of new cases our law compared to the old ones that they church attitude towards sex abuse has changed and now has a new conscience about it do you feel that he may have a point there i mean its kind of heart to doubt his sincere conviction. Im afraid its not hard to do. The objective evidence is there for why people should 1st of all pope francis is the last elected absolute monarch on the planet he is an absolute monarchy is the supreme pontiff of the Roman Catholic church under church t. C. Teaching he is the representative of st peter of god on earth he has that kind of power he has an entire judicial system available to him he has the mecca mechanisms of a state Vatican City State its laws its police force its criminal justice process he has the own questioning loyalty of many many many billions of catholics are millions of catholics around the world he is an incredibly powerful individual with one wart with the stroke of a pen he can change much of church law when it comes to how these issues are to be addressed he has not done so and hes not the 1st pope to summon bishops to rome and after revelations of scandals are revealed on those huge public outrage Pope Benedict or the Pope John Paul the 2nd did us and these summits amount to an awful lot of pictures of people looking solemn and very little change and as far as the suggestion that we can now believe that theres less of us will based on what evidence the church doesnt reveal the number of cases that are reported to us are i would manage as such theres absolutely no transparency some afraid i dont take any comfort in any assurances from the vatican that theyre taking this seriously because to this day no pope has told the plain truth not a single pope no senior representative of the vatican has ever honestly acknowledged the fact of the coverup theyve denied theyve suggested its a lie and when theyve begun to acknowledge that the myth may have been a cover up in recent years theyve pointed the finger to bishops at the local level despite all of the evidence that clearly exposes the fact that this cover up was directed at the most senior level from the vatican i always wonder why those most of this. You ponder upon you think why do all this sex abuse and sex scandals are within the Catholic Church maybe being celibate is not something that is required for a pris by the bible right now its not required for a Greek Orthodox church for my priest has like 8 kids so other Christian Churches do not require celibacy from priests the Orthodox Church like i said even encourages priests to have families at some point the roman phrase could marry as well if i remember correctly so maybe if it isnt something that is set in stone could it be overturned do you think that could partially help the problem could the pope say one day enough of this and go and find wives well that maybe help get rid of this problem but a couple of quick things i mean 1st of all we know about whats happening within the Roman Catholic church i think in part because of its size and scale and its global influence the fact that weve been able to expose much of whats happening right across the Roman Catholic world thats become a huge and significant issue but i should say that as a as a as a therapist ive worked with many people whove been abused within different faiths and within different religious settings and churches so its not unique to the Roman Catholic church but the Roman Catholic church is perhaps unique because of its global reach and scale. On the question of the link between celibacy and pedophilia i dont think the link is a direct one in the way that youre suggesting as. Indeed theres no research to suggest that that it has and just personally as a man i dont understand how a requirement to be celibate would somehow turn. An adult into somebody who was sexually assaulted child if im in a position where im being forced to be celibate and i dont feel that i can manage that i may well decide but i have a clandestine sexual relationship with another adult but not with a child. Require our you know needing to break the requirement for some. Its a doesnt turn people into child rapists it perhaps turns people into people who have hidden sexual adult relationships and you know that theres no link to suggest something between between the 2. However the fact. The Catholic Church is an institution and the priesthood is a vocation an institution within which one hides one are denies ones sexual south that itself may or may be one of the reasons why he explained people with very dark and sinister aspects to their sexuality or their Sexual Conduct are attracted to it and equally its a role that gives and has given people extraordinary access to children and i dont question control and access to children so the ability for a sexual offender to access victims should be free to abuse with with impunity has been extraordinary so i think those are the dimensions of the church its structure the structure of the priesthood the fact that the church not only want to prevent abuse from happening but it will collude in it being corrupt it will facilitate us it is often seen the priest almost as a victim and the child as the temper of the priest its over its concern has generally been for the priest and for the institution of it all for the victim just really briefly because were running out of time but if you take away the white colors and the oregon sounds other stories of sexual abuse will end up looking very similar to those who just discussed the way i talk to women who suffered rape in the u. S. Military the same attempts to cover up to shame the victim are there its the same there are many cases of sexual abuse of minors in boarding schools orphanages you mention that as well is the charge really that different from the rest of the world and as regards i feel like its probably maybe a marrow of the society. Absolutely no i mean the church at the end of the day despite its proclamation of itself as a Divine Institution its a Human Institution its run by people its run by men and we are flawed and we dont always conduct ourselves properly. I mean institutions generally want to protect themselves on the more powerful institution the more money the more authority the more position of has the more aggressively and even violently its inclined to protect itself and we see that right across the world i worked for many years in the United Kingdom we saw their major investigations into historic abuse of children in council run homes and in homes in institutions that were run by the state their institutions work to protect themselves and again thats why its incredibly important that we have laws put in place by the state but that ensure and demand good Child Protection practice but also punish those who would cover up or facilitate these crimes as well as those who perpetrate them thank you so much for. Your interview for your time for this inside wish you all the best of luck that youre doing. Thank you very much and i hope you succeed for talking to a call. About the crisis the Catholic Church is going through a. Child sex abuse revelations thats it for this edition of. Time. New chick or threatening them or. Im one of them but i think ended up by a little one when theres real buddy. Dave. One of them one night he should have and this. Put them to i dont want or i cant just let me as well and nation under that looking at it yeah question whom gets killed and how the chicken dads going to say he made a move a photo of the man that he i want to go to before out of this with. What politicians do. They put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected. So when you want to be president. Or somehow want to. Have to be right to be prochoice thats what will befall 3 of them or cant be good. Interested always in the waters at the college. This should. Know why a paradise with so much all year round turned into a round the experimentation field but i agree cultural chemicals we know that these chemicals have consequences they are major irritants theres no question otherwise why would the Chemical Company workers themselves be geared up that suited up locals attempt to combat the on regulated experiments but often in day. You have many of these people one foot into the biotech pharma and the other foot in the government regulatory bodies this kind of collusion is reprehensible while the battle goes on the chemicals continue to poison hawaii and its people so one has to ask the question whether there is a form of Environmental Research going on in hawaii whether these Companies Feel they can get away with this because the people have less political power. And. I know. That theres. At. Least. In the headlines this monday morning the french president s ambitious political maneuvering takes the leaders of the g. 7 by surprise as he invites the radio to the g. 7 summit for prices to. Radical new rules are in full so google kindly with a tech tell you telling employees not to engage in political debates of what now. Here but the fight for justice of the british sudanese man whos been languishing in jail in sudan for over 100. 00 days without