Youre watching going underground while were away were going to be showing some of your favorite episodes of this season coming up in this show the price of everything in the value of nothing is the u. K. Had one of the worlds greatest economists. Accuses the. National Tech Companies of. Cuba revolutionary in the spirit of fidel and is portrayed in the new film. To win a paul levante an Award Winning director. The song of revolution from Award Winning singer songwriter. The u. K. Releases g. D. P. Estimates in 48 hours but will politicians in the media be reading the figures. Is played down is g. D. P. Really a measure of the success or failure of a society from a cause your culture has in the usa to corbett in britain the ideas of moxon socialism or reigniting explosive debates from congress to the house of commons about what is truly valuable when it comes to Human Happiness joining me now is world renowned economist professor mary on them as a college or University College london founder of the u. C. L. A. Institute for innovation and public purpose a new paperback is the value of everything making and taking in the Global Economy welcome to the show marianna why apart from say generally cool britain is there very little skepticism value in the 1st place in modern society which is the main issue on the front of the book so the word value has become a very fuzzy kind of flaky word that anyone can use you can call yourself a wealth creator Lloyd Blankfein the c. E. O. Of Goldman Sachs one year after the crisis said that Goldman Sachs workers were the most productive in the world we have economists used to really debate and contest that word theres different theories of value and actually 1st we debated value and then that turned into a theory of price today we have basically an approach to the economy which is all about prices supply and demand curves that determines price and that determines what we value so the logic actually got reversed think of it the chains shareholder value shared value and Goldman Sachs calling Goldman Sachs workers the most valuable but what does that actually mean and so when we dont actually have a way to distinguish Value Creation from value extraction it becomes much easier just to throw the word around in fact the reason i wrote the book believe it or not is that in the 2015 election when the labor party lost the analysis by labor members themselves by leaders in the labor party the next day was we lost because we didnt embrace the Wealth Creators the Value Creators and by that they meant business and i thought to myself how can it be that weve gotten to the point where even the labor party which is about work labor doesnt you know doesnt actually have a narrative a way to talk about value thats collectively created and they confuse the word Wealth Creation with. Business because in the book you talk about Lloyd Blankfein fully of Goldman Sachs saying value or productiveness comes from organizations like Goldman Sachs its like were always told the city of london is a little wall street and you know its creates value yeah but what do you know whats interesting is that up until the 1970 s. The Financial Sector wasnt even included in g. D. P. It was actually seen as just a transfer of existing value from one place to another kind of like you would include Social Security payments its just a transfer and before that in fact the way we would talk about finance was also in terms of rent so the classical economists talked about in terms of unearned income it literally just moving stuff around which of course isnt true of all the finance but anyway there is this kind of skepticism of what is finance actually doing and so in the 1970 s. Which is when the deregulation and some other changes the size of the Financial Sector started to become larger where you had was that the people who were doing the systems of the National Accounts s. N. A. Inside the United Nations started to say i got this thing thats growing larger and larger in the economy isnt even being accounted for so instead of pausing and saying oh dear why is that what is this thing this blob actually doing they just came up with a justification for including it so Investment Banking was included under the term risk taking that it was a service for risk taking remember that when you include things into the National Accounts you have to kind of say what it is doing so in the u. S. As National Income and product accounting so all of this is suddenly stuffed into the g. D. P. Figures out without any kind of value judgement is it actually producing something or is it just moving things there when you maybe want your virgil to each other or open the newspaper and its talking about basically g. D. P. Growth is all that we can hope for for human operators using this sort of massive category well let me give you a little test. What happens if someone is cleaning your house a man lets not make this under a civic and then you marry that man. What happens to g. D. P. For it falls and if you pollute. We all in the river so all the strain the only shows or doings that only the only things that we pay for get included just explain the pollution or yeah so when we pollute g. D. P. Nothing happens to it only once we pay someone to clean up the pollution does it change and in this case it would rise or the example of the cleaner was if someone is doing something in your house and then they keep doing it even if youre no longer paying them perhaps because you married them and they still do that the g. D. P. Was is going down whereas other services in the house for example care 2 you know really important Care Services which we know are very valuable in the kind of a more colloquial sense simply because theyre not being paid for dont go into g. D. P. This by the way something that feminists economists have been arguing for a very long time environmental economists have been arguing the point about pollution for a very long time what i kind of brought to the table was this whole issue about also the Financial Sector which is you know is that actually creating value how would we kind of make that valuation given that actually how we measure value is simply through price it is for the really big it is a feminist to go in with divorce is good as well yeah why not exactly but you know this is the big revolution and in the history of economic thought is that the logic used to be from value to price nowadays we have a theory of price which then determines what we value so take teachers was really interesting with Public School teacher the Public Schools the teachers that work inside them because the service then gets provided for free to citizens we dont actually include the value of a well structured you know Education System all we include are the the costs so the salaries of the teachers go into g. D. P. Not the value of the product that theyre producing if you divide it by the demand side as you can cut g. D. P. In different ways but on the demand side so all the consumption spending all the Government Spending the investment spending and that exports this country mainly grows to consumption led growth and that consumption is fueled by private debt and the ratio. Private disposable income is actually back at record levels to what it was just before the financial or that is you talk about apple the most valuable companies in the world so again by you meeting government. Or Government Investment in these sorts of figures we arrive at the idea of apple being a great. Company with a lot of other nerds garage tinkerer is etc you say its the government that well but i believe in the case of the apple story in this kind of builds on my previous book called entrepreneurial state is that the state in again how we talk about an economy is just seen as fixing a problem economists say fixing market failures and if you think of the more colloquial use of you know youre talking about the state its there to enable to facilitate to do risk to set some sort of basic framework conditions and then get the hell out of the way but actually what the state has done in places like Silicon Valley and the few places in the world that have actually grown through innovation because theres different ways to grow the state actually acted as an investor an investor a 1st resort but when we just think of the state of spender administrator regulator we dont sort of capture this investment side and the true story behind apple is that everything that makes that phone smart to not stupid was funded by the Public Sector so internet touchscreen display g. P. S. Siri the voice activated system all those were funded not only by public money but by particular organizations that darpa in the department of defense that also has had to be structured in a particular way in order to you know use the smart innovation driven investments but its because we dont think of the state as creating value but just facilitating it and fixing market failures we also dont ask ourselves for countries that want to emulate for example the Silicon Valley model what does this mean for how we structure our public organizations to take risks to experiment to explore to be more Mission Oriented other guys are available that is why it was always the operative by the way is in trouble with the u. S. Government but where did it become all. And when does it become all pervasive that innovation goes through the private sector and not from go over directly the opposite of what youre saying then the name adam smith being used so often as part of the idea that government is role thats just factually wrong by the way so even if you survey as completely mysterious because adam smith what he meant by the word free market was free from rent free from rent and rent seeking to really free the economy of rent you also need and theres just policies that do sell but i would say so i start the book with quoting plato not adam smith and i say that plato said storytellers rule the world and the stories about where Wealth Creation comes from so only in Companies Like apple or in the Financial Sector better capitalism cetera is i think a story that also then justifies this very skewed way in which were distributing the rewards which are actually fruit of a much more collective system and so what i would argue is that the kind of battle against the state that began with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan had to be accompanied by a whole narrative a discourse a story using platos words that kind of portrayed the state as being you know a bit boring and inertial but what most people dont realize and so its not enough just to tell that kind of basic story is that the tech itself the really high Risk Technology was also funded by the state musk whos the new hero of space but also solar electric vehicles he received 5000000000. 00 from the u. S. Government Forestry Companies space x. Tests and solar city these are investments in particular companies and its really i think quite foolish to think that the taxpayer only socializes the risks and then we privatized the rewards as we did by the way with the bailouts of the Banking System on the all that everybody has to bail out and there are 70 goes on but of course i mean just in the past few days the word marxist is come up repeatedly in parliament actually as a word of contempt and even by b. B. C. Journalism you get the word more because again and again in this book. What is it looks you think good to horrify. Most of you who have never read marx at best theyve read the communist manifesto and how how does most help the marxist fascinating and if you mean the irony is if you read marx you end up really appreciating capitalism he describes it as a system driven by innovation constantly changing he has these wonderful metaphors for that change even in the comments manifesto but im really talking about capital is kind of magnum opus capital volume 12 and 3 which i read as carefully as they did adam smiths wealth wealth of nations David Ricardos principles of political economy the 3 were the classical economists compared to todays neo classical economist David Ricardo already in 821 was asking the question that everyone thinks theyre so smart when they talk about it today the robots are taking our jobs he was already saying this mechanization which is fueling growth under the Industrial Revolution has huge problematic features its displacing labor its causing unemployment and a pressure for wages to go down but then what you had for 200 years up until the 1980 s. Basically is that the profits that were being generated from this new machinery and Industrial Revolution were being reinvested in other parts of the economy so even though some jobs were being displaced there were then being found elsewhere literally Creative Destruction not just in technology but in jobs what then happened at the same time of the facts or reagan years you had this obsession with maximizing shareholder value in terms of how companies were governed and that was you know became i think a fundamental problem sickness in modern day capitalism which were really seeing still today which is the lack of reinvestment of profits back into the economy the profits are being hoarded on record levels but also being used simply to boost share prices and Stock Options and executive pay through practices like share buybacks so 3. 00 trillion dollars have been spent to share buybacks in the last 10 years by the fortune 500. 00 companies and when you talk to companies that engage with this practice and that would include you know pfizer says. Exxon apple they say well theres no opportunities for investment and then you look around and you see massive opportunities we have you know Climate Change which the i. P. C. C. Report tells us we have 12 years left 12 we have all sorts of challenges around Health Systems that really could be rebuilt and remember that if you do this ambitiously this also creates opportunities for profits themselves modern economic thought that instead of looking at these objective conditions of Production Division of labor mechanization productivity they look at preferences so even wages are seen as the outcome of the preferences that workers have for leisure versus work and its all focused on the individual the individual company maximizing profits the individual consumer maximizing utility worker maximizing their choice of leisure versus work and that kind of takes the attention away from the Structural Conditions of the economy which are very problematic president as a coder thank you for the break a new film about revolutionary cuban ballet dancer called osa koester office not to go to mainstream portrayals of the socialist nation we speak to the films director thats right and youll break scribe all that but we. Shall go with. The red. Revolution from that all the people going to go underground. This is the poseidon adventure mixed with the titanic in one colossal sinking of the Global Economy right now weve got donald trump starring with the ghost of paul newman on the bridge of the titanic watching as they engineer colazal failure with the Global Economy. Welcome back United States economic war will undoubtedly continue on countries in latin america this week with further sanctions on venezuela and cuba being id buy the trumpet ministration is it any wonder when measures like these are parroted by major nation Mainstream Media for the new film that follows the life of revolutionary cuban ballet dancer Carlos Acosta uses dance to dispel the Mainstream Media myths around cuba as well as highlight the effects of decades of u. S. Economic war in the socialist nation we met up with the films writer paul laverty who also wrote i daniel blake with ken loach and the films director issue of bullying in Central London i started by asking paul what made him choose the project im a very good friend called under calderwood is a scottish producer should read karlas his autobiography no way home because the cost of the ballet dont vally done so yes sunday its a traffic noise i get it done so hes a great writer and it was hilarious the because just really sparky very very funny he grew up in a very purity area and ivana hes dad was an absolute brute but hes also loved in a sort of strange sort of way and were going to watch the age of 9 himself he was a grandson to a slave so hes really tough on carlos and didnt Want Congress to going to trouble this is great youre going to school so the exact opposite of billy elliot and theres Carlos Carlos they want to dance and he wanted to play for the office you know exactly so and that was the starting off point that was and then then we went met carlos yeah and then we meant to abandon to see him british in there with his company the company that place that big rolling in the film and then i mean there were so many reasons to do the film and very few do not do in the film because hes such an amazing kind of. Boy who starts from a. Neighborhood. In sap plane the 1st black romeo in that area so its an incredible journey and then him and then we could tell these amazing story so we went for it because its a warts and all picture of cuba as well which is in the news obviously dont trump saying were going to destroy the country and its usually mention of those records as a war kind of economy that will be brought in by germany gober conscious of how youre going to depict the kuber of callers acosta yeah well we just wanted to be truthful because them and we listen to the propaganda from trump and often the British Government we forget that theres an economic embargo against the stay nation is going to have for 60 years which is totally against International Law and is condemned every single year in the General Assembly the United Nations and they try to stereotype it but we actually go to cuba its actually a very determined selfsufficient brilliant nation you know is certainly fill the full with the United States is you know illegal and bargo but theres a grace partly here theres great vitality brilliant talent fantastic dancers some of the best ballet dancers best Education Systems in the world they dont talk about are very much under him so carlos grow up im not im just wanted to believe it to be truthful to that and we look at that economic period you know as the special piece was a bit of a tough people trying to escape and rough so we dont try to. Make it rosy we just try to be truthful to cause his life and kind of his life obviously you know is wrapped around whats happened in cuba his last 45. 00 a year of his life just the Smedley Butler see him. Do you feel that was just was odd to put their lives and edit it into it because its so startlingly political in what is otherwise a story of aspiration you know something it was hard to defend because. It had quite a few critical critical people on it but the thing is as paul says you cannot understand cuba without the United States so because we are. Im not only telling cutlasses life cover story we are talking about cuba the United States has been broken in the island for the last 50 or the years. The United States have interfere in the politics of so many other countries as smoothly which was these in this general area pacifist after his life. In intervene in so many other countries he became a pacifist and he wrote this book which was call what he said rocket and then to enter the us i mean that was an amazing idea to say ok lets dance something they United States in their ways and all over the world all these dale volley things and we just go on thats them but there was an amazing character really well known up until very recently he was the most awarded military figure in their entire history unbelievable a marine general Smedley Butler but people dont know his name and its because after when he retired he just said i have become a thug i have been i was washed in al capone alcohol only had 3 districts we invaded 3 continents and saw this wonderful remarkable man his voice has been silenced and im so glad of that still an issue a very conscious of the fact that your work obviously the very film youre always talking about huge geopolitical ideas and then focus from drumming so telling me is that. Were a lot about the script 1st i dont know how you. Or whether you are still more. Undercover well ask him and then he asked me and then we both came in as a team what i think that was what was fascinating our callouses life story is about carlos its about that cuban dance here in this is about how how he managed to break through and be a super successful one of the best in his generation but also hes cuban and also his life goes parallel to the last 40 years and thats something which where theyre in the story i mean carlos his family which is very present in the film lived through the last 40 years of their life in the island and that was fascinating because youre telling the story of an amazing dancer but also the story of this country in the last but it doesnt force it was there i mean carlos is 2020 when he when he says hired by the by the English National ballet and then when he comes back to cuba he faces put on this has that in the economy the soviet union has collapsed 8 cuba has disappeared and they face these special period which was which was the worst time ever in the island so him so he faced that and he censored that he wanted back in cuba and everybody was leaving so we didnt force that into the story that that was actually what actually happened and its the same thing with today carlos mature man who has this high that to be part of the press and of his island by creating his company there and thats part of the film as well so hes not in your ear of no he was always connected to cuba he was holding back to cuba he was he never forgot his roots so all these things were what make this story short track of so relevant detail and so full of of well its a great story and it wasnt forced to actually talk about all these things in cuba of course is what happened and it was very nice was actually like some of your question actually was bring in the film back to heaven or you know there was a 5400 people in the car my son. And to see the opening of the film of the festival and there was thousands of say again that issue again and what was remarkable was just defection there for carlos because he has not forgotten his resume to come of all superstar in the world of dance because never forgot his roots and he wants to go back to cuba and he wants to contribute and build things there again and i think thats why hes held in such affection just on theres a scene where you really is in a place near here actually looking at Mainstream Media coverage all over cuba why pick that particular clip of where hes looking at it were just talking about all the people trying to flee well it was again it goes back to theos point when he went back in israel in his early twentys there it coincided with the collapse of the soviet union there was still the embargo beneath the states there was great poverty in the country and people were trying to flee you know flee and if you know escape and rafts and we just fell with the boat was part of the reality and something that deeply touched him as a cuban see in the pain of these people always was a very important point to train bringing what about this blurring of fiction and reality when ken loach was a large show you talked about your script for your break that script was measured allows a commons with politicians youre saying this is fiction its not real what is this blurring of fiction in reality in the hugely well its a very good question and because his father was actually born he was the grandson of a slave. That whole experience really marked him he went to work the age of 9 he was brutalized himself and beaten up by a bit of fight in lees own father be given a very very rough background and their constant had all the stories about slavery you know and cuba yeah magine them it was part of his reality too and i think as we have making sense of his father so it didnt go to the actual Plantation Bay decided to dance thats because he was absolutely convinced that those are the experiences that made his father such a tough contradictory characters so although its not literal i would argue its very very truthful play going to make films together again because obviously i understand you both met on carlos well the setting of a spanish civil war movie which obviously was thats not always going to take what. Weve done 3 so far hopefully well do more years ago in the. Film directed by the wonderful ken loach called landon 3 them so he got me into a lot of trouble because he introduced me to theater software and you ever made the 3 films together may when the if she for patients continues she may do another one with us i dont know what went on until i do. I never think of evidence its never take every day i have very high demand saw i have to join a queue as you as you just said yeah i was land of freedom not close as a regular rug. I know the films already won awards or youve won or words theyre going to take it to one guy dont run as wally or and both of them are all in brazil and all the countries in the numbers fear that may not be so rosy about the victories of a jug of a fidel castro i would love to bring it there and perhaps of the had a society where everybody who is over 70 is good talent you know have a chance to go to school and fulfill the talent i would love i would love to see that but when you see mr abbas another just in in and minute. The biggest countries in brazil celebrating an army which just convicted of so much torture and not just and i think it probably did im good to see some beauty some dance some of my generation on there and the famous and the subtlety of the human spirit thing i would be brilliant and i would cause for venezuela as well i never thought id work with daniel ortega. Thank you both if youre. Learning and you took the lead learning down your list and would like to see. The last. Usually the call us acosta story is in u. K. Cinemas this friday thats it for the show will be played out by saying its all right to natty with his song revolution c. On wednesday to talk last civilizations and colonialist talking all the g. With bestselling author Graham Hancock is not he with revolution. Been thinking about what you said. Ive been thinking about your. Down by the lake side. See you months and. All those things you said i 9 don. Want to take the stand. A lot about me. Back in london. They saw and saw so their faces go. They say your go in down. But i dont see not firing your eyes. When i say oh bowing down. Standing before me is the shadow of from. The revolution. I dreamed of a revolution. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business im showbusiness ill see of that. Will come to everyone to this special place as friends who have traveled here