Head to stay with us next. Well welcome to sophie and co im not say one more turn to peace to create a work of those in the shadows were bringing in the pieces together is often ignored and officials take the credit but not today i talk to a french businessman who takes no glory in saving lives and the conflict. Here expert in peril diplomacy chairman of Brazzaville Foundation today. With International Mediation politicians and career diplomats feel to it conflicts of the forces come into play working quietly as private citizens of the spotlight grinding away mistrust and blood feuds patiently bringing warring parties to the table why does parallel citizen diplomacy work well all the kings horses. Other people willing to work. With the promise of nobel peace prizes or t. V. Fame and how do they get the job done. Thank you very much for being with us today thank you for having. To be in such an interesting profession i want to know all about it so you are a noted negotiator lots of Success Stories in africa i know that youre now trying to get sites in libya to sit down and talk i mean in a way youre more successful than United Nations at least youre getting these guys to sit down and talk. With you did the issues as he would need United Nations but also some way somehow i needed those sorts of communication of 2 forces which. So you are right now talking about putting down the barriers of mistrust in libya but those barriers are were actually put up way before you and for the reasons that are beyond you what makes you think that an outsider can bring them down. Over the country and i goes across. My 1st. And bed also so he spect was a tradition and always a completely leaves and. Going to one. Wild all easy to show off i think where all countries are fighting over libya why not giving really begin to proceed to have to exist as a voice and to jointly express what they would like to do is a home country shes my aim is not to make peace east to p. 8. The fundamentals to create. For. Peace this is what im trying to say what kind of effort do you have to make to actually bring these people together in the same room bust testes always some big word yes he said he went but its essentials what they have done for libya for example is a following ive tied to look i dont the 5. Is a general scope of political the. 2 extremes of the scope and i for i found. Was aids and very close to. Their feet and a large ability of belhaj was formed it was thought but to fight it has got to fit him since he is the age of 70 so. And those are the 2 weeks or so as is the one who uses it will never talk together because. One accusing the other of. The worst things and. So i put them together how how by convincing them that their meeting will be not to discuss. The past and what these wont but to see what they have in common. What do you want for in common what you wont of course versions as far as the is is concerned and the knowing is a point of the. Point where they dont like anyone and it happened. Of course they will accept me because by his own people or as a people of the photo else how can you meet a man who can you see. Can you see be sure sunday but homes that meeting. Ziad agree on very simple principle about the future of libya. Is a visa should be one country should be a civilian government should be an army will respond to civilian government so this should be an independent judiciary because this is something thats what im saying like this is something that International Diplomats have been trying to do forever and youre just saying you know i convinced both sides that they shouldnt talk about the past just talk about the future and a common goal of libya this is a very simple straightforward formula that other diplomats use as well i still dont understand how it works out when you come in a dozen when other diplomats to you must have a key that others dont know what is a key thing they ever keep the one they have a pass to meant to give them some kind of guarantees what. Of course not so theres no guarantee you could have given checks ahead at the beginning or they could have left the shows are after 5 minutes no the problem is. Once you have once you are not an institution when you are not a government. Your voice is your voice it belongs to you and if this passed in your voice then people accept to do seems they would not accept was a situation we believe it is this is a difference we can between palin diplomacy and in 0 official diplomacy. The office of diplomacy is one line everybody talks or same way it mean nobody can have that individual opinion they have to express what because it is a jillion. Early for that me i am not bound to that i can i can have i can do what i want when i want and people believe as close me. Just one example in south africa i stopped the dialogues between white and black by an exchange of prisoners 160 people 5 countries in force 5 country and for. Us to place it in. Muslim baek it could happen very smoothly everything went right not one document was right there is not a. Which has been said everybody rife with. Planes to people back to back of the prisoners everybody believe that it should be issued arrive at that time and be part of that that. Not one people. And that it was involving millions country like hans. South africa now maybe mozambique. So i wonder if it always goes down so i had a friend an american friend who was working at the fall of apartheid in south africa just like you and he was telling me you know every time hes in the conflict resolution as well and he was how we know every time i go for a new job i have this feeling that i know what to do i know how to fix it i know it better and after 3 years of being there he was like you just fall into this state where you understand you dont know anything and you probably will never understand anything do you ever get that feeling when you go to a new conflict to a new country where you feel like i know it im going to do this and then youre on the ground and you trying to do your job trying trying trying and then at the end of the day you like i just dont understand anything and probably never will you interview about success. So its good they had some success but they have little failure i had big failure i tried to fix. So of course i am. My success but why is to give a chance to to the to peace to give a chance to peace doesnt mean that you get on that you will bring peace but at least you give a chance to achieve peace this is what im going to tell you to do with no guarantees that i would succeed so i am much more courageous and much more ambitious than if i am seeking ways and im going to succeed or not shes not my issue i am not sinking was what i was a chance what i was a statistic what that was a possibility for me to succeed and not interested i just say child i did do i have enough elements in my hands to try to bring peace. Do i have elements here. Are my going to put them aside not doing what they want no of course not i go for it this is their s. Life danger at any point in your line of work where you feel like sense of superiority here i am white man from the land of prosperity and peace i come to you party squabbling i will solve your pain because i know better does ever get that feeling because its dangerous theres a theres a fine line when you have so much power and trust. In your hands and you can make the process as movies can get that sense you can yeah sure i dont you dont have i am very as i dont. Believes that i am too sure of what im doing that i am as i am a person who is it is easy is it and i dont know it well in english im sorry as i adapt about what i am doing just censuses a feeling of superiority can never occur because if i doubt that means that they dont as i dont have a sense of superiority and i am and i never go is a sense of and then people know that you know we are dealing with men we are dealing with human and sometime we have to put aside the paper and document and report and z. Explain asia. Explain asians. To to get. Also a human side in the piece because everybody wants. The people who. Is a muslim to be the most wired cocktails somewhere somehow was hoping for peace and want peace peace is is there is even it out of your butt. I think maybe something given worst and sense of security that a lot of big powers get while theyre going into conflicts is ignorance because right now we see a lot of politicians. They dont have the understanding of the region when they actually act in that region they dont know the complexity of the fragility of the places that they affect for instance i remember president obama saying that not lack of planning in libya was probably one of the biggest mistakes of his presidency just recently norway admitted having no idea what they were doing when they send their claims to bomb libya and we see that happening actually a lot where does this im a tour approach come from i mean should they elected leaders be sent to some mandatory job or have political lessons about the world because this happens all the time you know when you when you start to do something and its valid for government all individuals dont cause i. Dont. See it twice before you. Even need to bad and you replace it by the worse. Unfortunately would happen more and more. Questions like this you you you want to change because because of bad but you replace it by some of the bad you have to take it off and for me of course how can you avoid that you avoid it by. Because. When you leave a conflict by keating and theres a conflict when you when you. Kidding and those are the people you face but when you deal. With when. You see its years of youve bought do you really want to build a future together then you are avoiding to replace. Bad to worse here were going to take a short break right now while we come back well continue talking about harold the promise and what is it and is it more effective than the official diplomacy stay with us. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy confrontation let it be an arms race. Spearing Dramatic Development only mostly im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical. To sit down and talk. It. Is not. The most companies you know. When i meet will. And were back with. Expert in peril diplomacy and the chairman of the foundation and i remember you expressing your opinion in the early times of the syrian conflict escalation you were about wrote about wars of good versus evil. That was you write that you know that youve said that this is led by us and they can no longer force on everyone because balance of power is shifting so i always think of why does the United States still go over and over again for the same strategy of fighting the black and white good versus evil wars when it has brought all his lee so much misery to the world and to themselves in the 1st place. Why not to me to answer to this question youre a true diplomat no im not to this is not to me sure why you why should a express an opinion on the Leisure Travel of any kind not i. Am just as it were worse yes. I am just saying we have to be very worried that you we by taking something bad will be placings by subsidy given us and this story as proof that some of the actions taken by this one those. Have been they placing something bad something event with us. We leave that to the 20th century and. Those mistakes because while as you said about president obama they were not planning after what do we do after how out and for me i am thinking this after has a very fundamental bass and after has to be a consideration is it is a consideration the can be exchange of opinion it can be democracy at last im not talking about western democracy or eastern democracy or specific democracy of the ability of the people to decide of their own future and that can be only be done. Before hate considerations or cure and that is a real so you just mentioned earlier in the into that parallel the promise in official diplomacy its pyro because they go without crossing pass so that means that youre not part of the system right official system there that the stablished was when you do your job as a diplomat but a lot of your Success Stories in the african period they were tied to it all they were tied to shock so you kind of are in the system or are you completely not part of the system. I do certain moments. Its time for the system to take over. Thats for sure i am as i said i am not here to make peace i am here to facilitate peace who is going to make peace is easy to shoot because you need to take the agreement its one which i am not thinkable to to take so yes at a certain moment there is lets say if. Some people accept it some countries accept it there is a like of communication and. A takeover by country of 2 brings everything to the feel of finality when i did so because i feel that which led to the independence of namibia and for the 1st time as a cuban and the american were sitting at the same table with together with a South African and younger than it was i have the political has been signed. It was taken by the un and there was a big show in. Un for the signing of the agreement i was not even invited i want to invent it nobody invited me when they all know that i was initiated this is because this time at a certain moment of the official take over and i have dont pretend that i can replace what is off the show of course not i am not here to the place anybody i am not here to to do. To i am here to help to assist not to replace the official diplomats listen to your advice as an outsider or do they really try to shut you down because its competition then we have to go back to the human nature i have extolled the need for friends with our diplomats and zander stand what i do and prove what it. Of course. They belong to. Myself probably not but then again its not white and black its i have very good friends we have diplomats they had. And they have no problem with them because it is really allies that i bring some seeing the extent. Of the progress but of course it is situation we dont like me maybe they dont like successes or has have your political convictions or i dont know moral convictions ever get in the way of doing the job as a imperil the promise for instance this guy i cannot talk to that want to talk to or whatever you feel personally is always irrelevant if you have to make peace and make people reconcile. There is not one person in the planet has so little if you sort of course never one. Criminal it can be i would like if he is a lady to talk about peace i will talk to him of course in the beginning of the interview said that i bring fighting sides to one table because there is trust you know they trust me and they trust that you know with they come together its going to be for the better of the common cause does this always work how do you make people who are not willing to reconcile change their mind or this is only work when they actually do want to negotiate deep inside you see this is a technique between records. When i did i did the 1st conference which is in may in that car which is called now that i won because hopefully we are going to have a dugout to. I get invited to peoples here and the north people will say what ive done. I went to bishops alley i went to do that village and i said please convince your friends to come to the conference so examined. And been convincing their fans to come to the conference so i was not exposed as a person the test was. Jumping jumping from one person to the other but at the end of this way all that because if i would have been the one whod been travelling with my leg age and going through to see the people i want to invade to convince maybe i would not have succeeded because it dawned on me and ever saw me they who were his white men in the in the libyan conflict as you say. But if i am using somebody was done by so. Thats a different push this is something which is you dont very briefly when i started to be interested in africa i had a chance i was very young i was 20 i was i was invited for dinner by a very fantastic men who were president of a device of the very cause who fled with me and e. U. Invite me to have a lunch and he was listening to me and i wasnt recessed he got a call in what i want to do with africa an hour into the africa i was there and theres the end of the dinner he said you are interested with africa i am going to give you only one advice only one never enter an african village if you are not accompanied by somebody who is known by the village. And they have apply. All my life is. A caution is the. Beginning is never given by myself is given by somebody who has a test of a person. And it works so i realize that there are no guarantees of any kind of anything when you get 2 people when you get people in the same room that have been killing each other for such a long time so its a big deal that they sit down but what is the success rate usually those people who have been feuding for so long ok theyre in the same room what is the success rate after they Start Talking have you im sure youve. Already there in your personal theory i dont i dont count ok but let me tell you something is where the dialogue is a most essential thing because that means even if accepted to meet. It has been a patient was a meeting is not is not. No idea what theyre going to discuss their bed so indeed a cli indeed take the dialogue has been established between them by me most probably most of the time for me so. Dont. Have before they meet they have evaluated appreciative. That it was going to be very detailed very sour and i was already. I never experienced. A moment the way i put 2 parties together and no one has left the home never explained that they might not and. It did happen in the car one when after our messages i mean delegates. Accepted to be on the plane their charter i did that but when this all was going to be their homes i said no we cannot sit there with the same people in the left so. The. Ways that. I never experimented but do you know like gestures words that are it already like signal to you that there is going to be a deal here do you feel yes dance or are this like a center for ages and is where you intervene. You know you are not. The mains as long. As it is not. Beginning or slight of conflict your positions then yes you have to intervene and calm down and tell people that she is what you mean she is what the. Generals that they may be you you can match and. You feel it you. Knew you feel at the time. You are you sure you should. And having yes would you work on a complicated conflict like syria and if not then what would you advice people to do that no i will never work on the conflicts because unfortunately syria is going to be young people of syria of syria. I still believe that in libya yes not yet it should live and where it goes beyond the people of libya in syria has gone beyond the people of syria is a pretty people of syria today it doesnt count i mean its. So what will be my role too to do or do to have Syrian Government matching. Free syrian land in the u. S. Government and. All and that i dont have the keys and. I cannot and that is also is a given i dont im not following so since well good luck in the cases that you are involved and im sure theyre going to be successful like most of the cases you have undertaken thank you much but this is thank you very much its been a pleasure it was been a pleasure for me to. You. Welcome to max kaiser financial survival guide. Looking forward to your pension account. Yonks this is what happens to pensions in britain. You watch kaiser report