National post churn. Personalities certainly have a role to play i think over here more than just a const personalities mr moodys personality which has had a rule to play in what india has become in the last 5 years ive been screaming at the top of my lungs for the us by years that india is being let that literally its playing with fire and it will not be able to put this genie of extremism back in the bottle because once you allow people to become so extremist in this thought process in their action in their reaction then that becomes you so india is no more the secular shining rising india that we thought was possible and the prime minster were crimes from the moment and its a very different india in pakistan i think the process of the reintroduction of democracy and the Political Parties maturing has had a huge role to play in it and i think you saw the parliament acted in reacted to this crisis it was restrained in. It was considered it was debated the Prime Minister supremacy confound it very easy to dig this posturing which was what the parliament and the people of pakistan wanted so its actually a reflection of changing Society Behavior and changing National Priorities for both countries its us visible to people like you. Know perhaps from this incident while im hard what is also visible to people like myself is that india is a democracy it is facing a major parliamentary election in may which may explain why Prime Minister modi may be more motivated to burnish his strongman image ive also heard people say that this could be something more long term this could be a change in indias a military strategy in becoming more assertive what do you think is more likely do you think its mostly political or g. Think its indeed strategic. Look i think its a bit of both to care because. In a rather stunned really election really prime mr moody using the images of people who who passed away in the incident so it is bringing nationalism and the military right in the middle of politics ok thats one secondly again people like myself have been observing this since perhaps in the moment since time where the deep establishment in india is becoming more and more powerful i remember the time when they wanted to solve the dispute and promised a moment singh was very keen to do so also but was held back by what i can call the deep establishment in the india so in some ways you know i even tweeted about it you see india and pakistan fall into very different trajectories we are moving of the from extremism into a more great progressive hopefully a developing society and india is moving to words a very very belligerent aggressive extremist india and i was just a little bit perhaps disagree with you when you see this is only election related because the lynching of people the whole process of using we reap and pellet guns a state policy into smear and really very aggressive behavior towards muslims whether they were in mumbai or york push me or do you or anybody else this started as soon as by mr moody came into power well not that hard the pakistani government is also accused of major human rights abuses on its own territory so lets not paint it black and white but im more interested in the political angle of this whole skirmish because when the security and the sovereignty of a state i directly engage there is always pressure on latest to respond in a mass killer and symmachus way in order not to look weak and yet Prime Minister han went out of his way to stay conciliatory do you think his response where have been the same if he like his encounter. Were facing an important election no this is what you we really need to understand about Pakistan Pakistan has changed on that ground pakistan new more considered and the more city against india encouraging in the mostly among to its nationals against any one of its neighbors as good state policy right this is where pakistan is very different than we then india right now because i think weve learned our lessons from history and therefore we dont wish this upon india also because if they go on this trajectory unfortunately they will not be able to be responsible players in this region this region has suffered for far too long because of this ongoing conflict between these 2 giants in the region you know if you look at any progress that the street and could potentially have made weve lost out ok i think we need to fight wars against poverty against giving education to our people giving help opportunities giving Economic Opportunities its really sad if in the neighborhood as large as india move towards this extremist belligerent aggressive nation because it doesnt do any good to any of its neighbors and least of all pakistan well i agree with you that the Indian Response was quite extraordinary because there were suicide attacks before but it was the 1st time that indian fighter jets crossed deep into pakistan since i think the and 971 India Pakistan war how much of a shoghi thing those indian air raids were to the pakistani Political Leadership you know interestingly i think with Prime Minister mu the been in power for the last 5 years in india we in pakistan were prepared for anything which is unreasonable which could be avoided grabber and close to the election coming in march and we were we were quite mindful of the fact that any incident will be perhaps manufactured or created im not pointing any fingers over there but it will be used as an excuse to do something very irresponsible. Because the extent of the responsibility of this act and then the extent of the of the nature of shipping and the lies which have now been exposed internationally it has actually damaged indias credibility far more than the length and breadth of the selections so very responsible people in india perhaps now we can up to that realization and you know very responsible point voices from india also pointing out that we need to stop looking towards pakistan for indigenous problems because what has happened in push me the reaction of the kashmiri people is because of the very strong state terrorism or aggression which has been. Pointed towards them in the last 5 years now i dont want to go into a blame game right i dont want to say you do this we do that i want to see that these 2 countries are far too important for the region for their own people and for the world we need to really come to the negotiating table and really have uninterrupted and uninterruptible dont know because dialogue is the only we to really of conflict long term distant relation of 2 Nuclear States whose purpose is it serving it serves no one it just creates a lot of negativity within the region and keeps the region and these 2 countries from Going Forward while again one version that i heard in the pakistani and International Media who is interested serving it at least initially were intended to serve the interest of their ruling party in india its too early to say conclusively have this point of time but do you think this incident will end up helping mr modis electoral chances or g. Think it will and hurting him look as our route which is report recently which clearly says that his. Numbers are Getting Better right after this rate and you see him in the electioneering process really using this. As an you as a powerful tool. It would be very the never know how elections turn out and we never know how politics play out because now in the last 23 days you see some sanity emerging by no means about the killing 300 people in pakistan than they did those have been completely debunked by International Media and International Organizations so its really going to be anyones game but obviously mr grimes to move the is trying very hard and its quite sure that this will assist him i can also see how it will assist him because in the last 5 years hes made a very ultra nationalist. Ultra stream sort of narrative shipping in india has now almost become very ingrained its dangerous for india as it. Is dangerous for pakistan now you mentioned before the role of the media and how differently they cheer countries in gauge the media because india almost immediately closed of this side of the suicide bombing attack whereas pakistan around the country invited media over to the side of the strikes to undermine the indian damage claims i wonder if this is perhaps an eel area of Foreign Policy or of diplomacy for pakistan in gauging the International Public opinion much more practically and by the use of not only traditional but also social media you know i dont think its about Public Opinion that we dont think its about pakistan was able to you know do agree drawer at a p. R. Handling i dont think the p. R. Handling it says this i think this is a changing reality excesses and i think pakistan was just able to engage of both the world through its changing reality and i think the importance of the state in the world depends on its credibility right now the credibility of india through this whole crisis and. How they managed it has actually been reduced to a very very low number simply for the past that every claim that was made by the establishment by the military by the indian politicians by the indian media has actually been proven to be incorrect satellite imagery has proven it to be incorrect though everything that pakistan was seeing could be proven by exposing them to be a little on the ground and therefore pakistan was meche more keen to engage with national bindiya and International Media because what it was seeing could be corroborated by facts on the ground now this is a very dangerous situation because if a country feels if the people who are in power in that particular country in india for instance feel that they can for their own people into this ultra nationalistic you know jingoistic reaction by feeding them lies and then the media picks up those lies and multiplies the many times then what are you turning your population into and how are you expecting them to react to a neighbor like pakistan because then everything that happens in india is immediately put on pakistan short or this is a dangerous dangerous trend and for a country has the largest india aspiring to be a Security Council member to lose its credibility this much and to be using lies and manufactured events both in front of international for forget the Media International players and its own people i think its very very sad and i dont think this plays on well for anyone even pakistan should not be happy by in india which is choosing to upset in such a manner we dont want to embarrass them while madame hard we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments states and. We came here where you were before you came what is a little. Just wrote in many. Capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution but most of the time the victims families they are very much in favor the Death Penalty there are some people because of what they do have given up the right to live among us even proven. Through how many more exonerations is it going to take before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about. It is community there are people who believe that its ok. Its really hard there are no jobs and you see the kids ask and as a parent. I can come up with arguments and theres a lot of conflict within the game and between the teams most of the conflict i would say. Close one on each other. Each other is Good Business the state of california makes 6000000000. 00 a year of the prison complex just to get some 25. 00 where. You dont care. Anything. Welcome back to worlds apart with rabbani har pakistans former foreign minister and a member of the National Assembly madam har while the current episode seems to be diffuse the initial premise for the attacks remains that is militant groups which india considers terrorists which the United Nations considers terrorists operating in a pakistani territory do you think that could lead to the tensions flaring up again in the future look i hope the initial premise as it existed 10 years has moved a long long way and it you might have the luxury to be able to ignore that i unfortunately do not have the luxury to simply for the reason that pakistan the last 10 years has for 70000 of its citizens trying to find these very militant groups that the world cleans we have done nothing about pakistan has lost 70028000 soldiers Paramilitary Forces fighting these very militant groups scoots the pakistan like india the state cannot do everything at the same time right now the premise of this particular attack being manufactured or planned or emanating from pakistani soil is entirely incorrect and it has almost been proven to be incorrect not to use anything that happens indigenously because of state policy because of state terrorism in kashmir as a tool to rip up the stone is obviously not fashionable or loud or billboard because eventually all of us have to look internally but this is a country to do by the way which is a change country we are all confident enough to look internally at the fault lines that we heard that were trying to correct were trying to protect minorities better we try to protect the i. D. P. s the people who would. Space because of military action against militant groups in the fatah region which is now. And everywhere else and the fabric of our society has suffered because of that so this is to be told for a country which has suffered so much and frankly speaking not suffered for your sake or for the american sake or anyone elses take but for own sake we had to correct meaning of the mistakes that we made in the past and the last 10 years we have started the journey of predicted them rather quickly now i think in some ways this incident perhaps gives the world an opportunity to be able to look slightly more deeply. Into what pakistan is today and not to judge pakistan by what it was during many many past 3 genes which were not democratic and them have speaking about this change pakistan dainton Prime Minister when he was. Responding to this just share of goodwill on the part of your country at the release of the pilot sat in our previous straightforward and i would even say threatening way that this was this whole skirmish on the border was just a training practice and that quote the real thing is yet to come is there any point beyond which pakistan will not be able to maintain its conciliatory post chair look pakistan as a policy not by accident did 2 things ok pakistan did not remain conciliatory to the extent of allowing india into its International Borders its territory and exit without being a little you should be retaliated because we had the responsibility to protect ourselves a little bit you also sought to deescalate would they be a point when you will be much less motivated to do that this is exactly what im telling you so well let them nor that if you can do military adventurism we can also do it on the side no i am very very concerned about the Prime Minister who can 1st of all use that type of language about talking about. You know military adventurism in the way that this was a Pilot Project you will see what will happen we will get into your houses who are those who took him to get into anyones its his International Borders the Security Council doesnt the un charter doesnt International Law doesnt so what my my reaction to your specific question is that if there is result to military adventurism i think all of pakistan stands united behind its armed forces and i think our armed forces if anything have displayed that they dont need to make stories about what theyve achieved but be able to actually achieve did we do any chest thumping. Were going to fight 5 to buy you know 5 to be in stone a capturing the pilot we actually turned the pilot into you and forgot to celebrate i wont buy that would actually we dont that mean simply for that reason because we did not want to create this war hysteria you know we sent it by lit within 48 august back into indian territory i think this is the difference in approach is that the 2 countries have it with you on the difference in their approaches but i think they were the kind of world that to believe in is not always in compliance with International Law or even the african norms i mean there are a number of countries in the world that allow themselves the right to strike targets in somebody elses territory israel would be why the United States would be and the other if india precedes with these kind of approach in india is a much much stronger state than yours im asking you not as. A social commentator but as somebody who used to be in charge of these very very important decisions how much will be too much for pakistan because theres always a limit to everything in my country and you know from its recent experience you can see that sometimes when youre being pushed too strongly you will retaliate and respond then sometimes that responsibility not to somebody elses liking 1st before so far i think of india being militarily but strongholds of course it is a much bigger country and it spends far much far far far more than pakistan don does on its military much as International Opinion completely in a different sort of direction ok so simple the simple answer to your not so simple question is that pakistan will not be in the military adventurism into its sovereign dead tree if that happens pakistan has not only the right but the responsibility please understand this we have the responsibility to react all of pakistan stands as one the parliament has made exactly the scene. This given the same direction in its resolution the national Security Council says exactly the same thing in its meeting so the executive the parliament and the people of the pakistan stand behind the armed forces because armed forces of popular have now acted very very responsibly and we know this isnt this is the United Nations against belligerence i can assure you this episode has put pakistan i think strongly bonet pakistan together and i think its probably too many pakistanis that pakistan stands together as a united front pakistan is a far stronger an issue and then its much bigger an issue that were talking about one of the most militarized regions in the world with a very very high security presence and i think its a valid question how would a young local man and were talking about a man in his twentys who is believed to be this initial suicide bomb attack how would he be able to source 750 pounds of explosives to carry it out one that being the interest of pakistan to find out and dont you think that your country should be perhaps a little bit more forthcoming in offering its assistance to india to deal with this major terrorist issue in the indian controlled kashmir look i think we have been more than forthcoming to the extent that the indian media and the indian politicians have used it as pakistan coming to its knees wanting to negotiate asking us over evil him but they will actually not so this is all a narrative shipping and i think pakistan has said at every forum from every level that peace we would like to assist you in this give us some credible evidence we would like to move with you we want to fight not to fight terrorism we want to discuss terrorism with you because we all have different versions of who is a state terrorist and who isnt right so look on this particular incident this particular incident the intelligence that one has heard so far and im not in government i dont have access to in the end. Religions percy but from what i have heard from credible sources is that the mood in push me because of what you can only quote. And really high handed behavior when major listen then you would say im going too much into details if a major of the military of india puts a fish meat in front of his jeep and takes him out and allows him to be stoned and he becomes a decree to men this is telling you what india has done in that country in that region if there is anyone within that area to a pakistan who has assisted who has help we are not supportive of anyone who assists while its anywhere be it inside our borders or outside thats a change parties stand that the world is perhaps taking too long to accept because you are judging us by a previous repetition the not being able to understand that in the last 1015 years pakistan has changed direction and pakistan has credibly strongly when monthly falling trying to completely d. You know the minute extremism from all parts of our society now let me ask you one now one more question about an important player in the originations the United States ive heard some x. Where its claimed that this indian pakistani issue didnt dissolve on its own that the Trump Administration in gauged in some quote quiet diplomacy behind the scenes which with this white house is hard to believe both when it comes to the word quiet and when it comes to the war diplomacy what are you hearing in islamabad is that true ok so again i need to remind you im not in government so i do not know exactly what and where but from what i know and from what i see starting from president im calling it a calling attractive news coming in from the subcontinent after this conflict you know after this crisis erupted which is obviously indication that the americans were playing a role and then he went on to also say that we are try. To speak to both parties and we are hearing attractive news so he was obviously talk talking about american role in trying to diffuse the situation beyond that also we also hear that 60 pompey are also played a role so look when 2 nuclear stand eyeball to eyeball then of course the world would choose to try and deescalate the situation i thought the world could have chosen to do it earlier we should not have even reached this point but its important that we understand that we have been very restrained we have been constrained we have been very very careful in all of that but. With a country as large and as military militarily sort of robust or or villain lets say because i dont know about this is that hasnt shown much but. As india to be as aggressive and as belligerent in this mindset coming all the way up from the Prime Minister to the smallest media house in india and meeting to the rest of the population is a very dangerous trend and i met them high e. S. C. s even trying to say throughout this interview countries change pakistan has changed significantly so can india not only here for the worse but also for the better so lets hope that they may elections perhaps a bill and make it a little bit last diligent but we have to leave it there its always a pleasure talking to you thank you very much for being so generous with the interview as it did thank urge our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and i hope to see here again same place same time here on worlds apart. Since it was to sleep for. My bill for sunday and the syria. Girls going to say the board of business with the most is surely a good look. This isnt with. A lot of slow slow slow slow slow motion. The case is that because of the way that the deal but you also look at the model your body has to flow its looks like its home from the show such as the fluid souls a. Newborn you must. Move. One else seemed wrong why dont we all just dont all. Get to shape out these days to come to cancer. And in detroit because the trail. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. Canas calendar is drawing alfonzo among his die and their situation paint changed dard survival. His 1st words were at a lot of us here a challenging post youve got 2 years to live. I have no doubt that what happened was scriven. The sense concentrate market is a 1000000000. 00 industry these companies have a huge financial motivation to sow these products there are numerous stocks showing that doctors were keen to test factory concentrates free infectivity on that patients wont give them doctors the wrong stoplight. Terms or stuff why they would keep me from secure doses day. And people still die i dont know which question was so i tried being hard to leave so many have. Kind of mourning here in moscow in the headlines this morning a bomb blast has devastated a wedding ceremony overnight in the Afghan Capital kabul its left 63 dead and a 182 when. It is the big stories of the last 7 days elsewhere hailed as heroes 2 russian pilots pulling off an expert Emergency Landing to save their passengers lives after the plane suffered a double engine failure during takeoff. And the medical examiner rules of the death of the disgraced former finance here Geoffrey Epstein was a result the suicide multimillionaires lawyers though say theyre not satisfied with the conclusions