Its crosstalk. Hello and welcome to crossfire were all things are considered. Trumps impromptu visit to the d. M. Z. Separating the 2 koreas was unprecedented and historic indeed it was a bold brilliant decision of course his political opponents particularly the democrats running for president and the media slammed an orthodox diplomacy is on the side of peace. Cross talking north korea im joined by my guest ray mcgovern in raleigh he is a former cia analyst and. Founder of veterans intelligence professionals for sanity in jerusalem we have from in bar he is president of the drucilla institute for strategy and security and in plymouth we cross to Patrick Henningsen he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wire dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to ray 1st in in raleigh i just want to comment i know that youre growing your beard to give attention to the maltreatment that julian a song is being is experiencing right now so good for you my brother a man for your protest but lets go to the play affairs at hand here north korea. Youre an old hand of International Politics trump made an unprecedented bold move hes been slammed left and right and center for it i think it is brilliant hes thinking outside the box because the policy towards north korea is over and over again the same policies are attempted and they fail now we have a new start i dont know if its going to go anywhere but its bold and its worth paying attention to rape. Its hard to know for sure where its going anywhere because trying to get rid of bolton and and pompei oh if he wants to achieve any success or at least remind them who is president hes got other obstacles in the main one is what i call the mickey met the military you got a pencil here yeah yeah military industrial congressional intelligence media. Academe think tank complex micky matt now why do i say media because thats a scene acorn and thats the thing that makes it possible for to derail everything that. Wants to accomplish in terms of reducing tension because you know the media is owned by the same corporations the profits here and these says tensions are in war so holo. Figured out so the media has deceived most of the American People into thinking that the leader of north korea is just a beast and its going to take a while for trump and his folks if they want to do an agreement to correct that and to say look we cant make them completely disarm but at least we can put in guarantees that they dont want that they dont do something really bad and the guarantees will come from immediate neighbors russia and china and thats the big new impetus thats the big new element and thats what were going to talk about that for sure if im limited we go to you in jerusalem i raise that brings up a bring a good point here i was watching the cable stations and of course the the way that north korea and its leader is characterized as in the worst possible terms my question is what does it what difference does it make you want to reduce tensions on the peninsula i mean stalin and churchill and roosevelt worked to defeat fascism in europe no one was singing the praises of Stalin Soviet Union they wanted to defeat a common enemy we have a growing coalition here north korea is a political fact kim is a political fact if you want to have peace you have to deal with both go ahead in jerusalem. Indeed a fact but not a very pleasant fact so it is. Dictatorship that processus Nuclear Weapons and. Some of the South Koreans. Japan. Nuclear the zation in south korea may bring about a nuclear ization. As well as the nuclear is ation of japan. Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons is not good to this a peaceful peace theyll fall of i think that its important to try to dig new clear eyes north korea of course admit that this job is not any easy one because. The north korean regime is a nuclear bomb bates is an insurance policy so yeah yeah i lie loud but im pleased to welcome a chorus i mean i am prime. The day the north korean sol went to the west did to libya so no wonder it needs an insurance policy patrick let me go to you jump in and. Reflect on whats already been said here go ahead. Well firstly i want to just comment on what f. M. Said i dont i dont believe north korea they dont have a confirmed Nuclear Weapons arsenal this is this is all up in the air a lot of the. Analysis. According to the cia one and multiple assessments from 2010 to 2013 it mid that they are not sure what exactly they have they have done tests this seems to have been confirmed Nuclear Tests but in terms of operational warheads its unknown on top of that there i. C. B. M. Program is a bit ridiculous in comparison to other countries so we dont know exactly how far they have achieved in terms of medium range long range missiles ok they are potentially a threat but south korea is not going to acquire a bomb just because north korea havent started to date they dont need to because the United States provides that deterrent they have that and okinawa they have that in guam and they have that in south korea and they manage the d. M. Z. So this is part of the United States is extended deterrent post world war 2 Security Agreement and pact with japan to control the pacific but i think whats more important here is that north korea provides the absolute keystone to the United States pacific rim strategy so if there is peace on the current Korean Peninsula they provide thats the public facing keystone the back end is china and Everybody Knows that but in terms of the front end how it looks in the public there the villain north korea pyongyang is the villain if theres peace on the Korean Peninsula then you have a little bit of a problem in terms of u. S. Geo strategy theyll have to reengineer towards china at that point because theres no other threat in the pacific to basically justify that sort of extended turns which has been opposed to the post world war 2 strategy for how many years now almost going on nearly 80 years. Not long now so you know you know read the if you look at the opponents of trumps gambit here and i think i used the word purposely gambit because it is very unusual here but the people that are against this are all comfortable with the status quo they like that they want to remain the same for reasons that youve already mentioned and patrick already mentioned ok i mean it when you think of the resources that are spent on the military for the Korean Peninsula its vast its huge they dont want that market to go away they want this threat and thats why they will demonize north korea to the end degree to scare people they want this i mean in the media loves war oh they just love it its great for ratings and its a great way to hate donald trump go ahead ray. Well if you look at raytheon you look at lockheed you look at some of the other big defense contractors and this would be the worst news that ever happened to have a deal and korea maybe even a peace treaty how could they sell Ballistic Missiles being stationed all around a stance of bullying and north korea but really against china how could they justify these billions some people say a trillion dollars on worthless and people istic Missile Systems when the russians have already proven that they can circumvent. By many stratagems the system so it doesnt matter if they work or not its matter that the people who profiteer on this and these same people control the media and thats not an exaggeration to look at look at who controls the media as long as they profits here were going to have real disappointment if theres a lessening in tension not only in the far east but of course in europe and russia as well ok in front of them to go back to jerusalem ok trump took made the 1st step ok literally 1st steps into the d. M. Z. Into north korea what should his next step be if he wants this to gain some momentum go ahead. I think. He is an isolationist he would love to get out of korea he would love to get out of american commitment to do its allies we all know how he spoke to the net our nato allies and. I sings that he once some kind of agreement not necessarily peace and i dont know exactly what peace means in the. Korean peninsula he wants an agreement of dodo to save money to the american taxpayer and i dont worry so much about American Military industries because im a celeb too. In asia is rising china and all of the countries and im china buying more and more weapons is the way it is one beneficiary of it and. Bank accounts of the military industries in america i dont worry about. You dont worry about it that some say that because theres a lot of people on the receiving end proppant and dad ok patrick. The interesting thing is. Actually the same question that i asked and i cant im going to say hang on a hang on let me go to patrick fair time for a time for everyone here it said you know there is already a plan out there its the russians and the chinese that how but i mean trump would be very very wise to embrace it go ahead patrick. Sure sure i mean that theres a number of other issues here wider geopolitical issues one of them is you cant separate the negotiations on on korea between the united denuclearization negotiations you cant separate this with whats going on between the u. S. And iran at the moment these 2 are inextricably linked and i think what the United States is trying to do in donald trump administrations art of the deal sort of way is to try to get some kind of a winning formula with regards to north korea and then some success at least in the run up through the 2020 elections and then go to the Global Public and say look this worked in korea we locked all these preconditions on we front loaded the deal weve got a deal even if they dont get the deal at that time they can say they got the deal and then go to the iranians and say why doesnt iran take this this perfectly reasonable deal that we can inspect all of their military ok saturdays patrick got the job and here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on north korea state with our. During the Great Depression which im old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed. And it wasnt it was bed much worse objective listen today but there was an expectation of the things were going to get better. There was a real sense of hopefulness there isnt today todays america where shaped by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. Reduced democracy attack solo down engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to no im chomsky one set of rules for the rich opposite. Thats what happens when you put power into the hands of a narrow sector of will switch will is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as youd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to us of the world of politics Small Business im show business ill see that. My son was doing drugs my nephews was still in drugs my sister just with doing drugs it was like an epidemic of drug abuse americas public enemy number one in the United States is drug abuse he started going after the users in a prison population sewer we started treating sick people people who are addicted to these drugs like criminals while i was on the hill. That the war on drugs was a mistake there are countless number of people who are in prison for him. For. Offenders in the drug trade its a lot watching your children grow up and miss you in waves and say by as youre walking out of it this is just it doesnt get easy. Hard money fashionable again and that halo spilled over to gold if it werent for pick lloyd there would be no current rally. Welcome back to crossfire where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing north korea. Ok wait let me go back to you in raleigh. If Everybody Knows this trump is in election mode he wants to be reelected and he wants a win he wants a win that he can run on he was smart in staving off an attack on iran bolton should be fired and just be shamed out of government hes just a tape worm in the bureaucracy. But he wants he wants a victory and and by walking on into the d. M. Z. Hes made it his own its very very own with Tucker Carlson watching from the sidelines not john bolton exiled into mongolia so this is very important for true its very important for trump can he and you know government very very well you know how it works and it doesnt work and you know how people can become obstacles so what does trump need to do to make this a win or a perceived win and i stress perceived win go ahead. Well youll notice peter that tape worm bolton was not at the d. M. C. Now thats not a conclusive indicator but there are we criminologists used to look at the top the lenins tomb and see who wasnt there ok so thats a straw on the why didnt he make it readable to he may get rid of pump a. O. Now the important thing here is not to give. Exclusive rights to this success i think it was talked to but chinese president z. By russian president putin is in in osaka at the g 20 and they tell them look. On the stand your predecessors destroyed iraq and libya because they didnt have a Nuclear Weapon the say in how kim looks at this for petes sake its a deterrent now if we can give you some sort of guarantees and were really im really engaged because thats trade on our border right we dont go in over and out of border if we give you that lets get at the ill i think the russians and chinese are as much responsible for trump saying maybe oh maybe ill ask him to meet me at the d. M. Z. As. Trump himself and from you know ive said in the 1st part of the program is that there is already a plan out there i mean its freeze for freeze it its eminently doable and we have to remember too and i think its i always lament the fact that south korea isnt given enough credit for its efforts here to bring enough i mean president moon is brilliant and hes really reads this very very well and donald trump is giving it some momentum so shouldnt donald trump if he wants though when let everybody else do the heavy lifting let the chinese the russians and the South Koreans do it go ahead in jerusalem. I think. Is all it did with all this says he doesnt want the military think that way and i dont know hed say it in print and so on up here. As if front pages of every newspaper means that well he made that as a film cite them on every t. V. Knew it was and he said that j. D. Debt is an ok lex and he added he does that all the time ok this is not an exception ok its what were all living in the world right now if we like it or not patrick youre nodding your head why youre not in your head for go ahead patrick b. Because on you know continuing whatever said trump is going to absolutely stage manage this process to maximum effect over the next 18 months right through the election cycle this is one of the few areas where he can get a wind you could get but potentially a clear enough win with theres not as many tertiary problems in it and issues like you have with iran the likelihood that theyre going to get a win in iran any time soon seems to be slim and none not least of all because of the allies in the region of the us that are also exacerbating the situation namely saudi arabia and israel but i think in terms of the election cycle this is going to be going to despise arm the democratic opposition in many of the debates as well because as president he has the combin he has the advantage of being able to select the timing and this symbology of it is going to be great not unlike a gorbachev or said kind of moment and yes there were underlying realities during those 2 that made a lot of those outcomes inevitable but they got the credit for doing this thinking outside the box or doing the unpopular thing at the time and coming out with some good p. R. From that and i think donald trump has an opportunity to do that whether they actually get an agreement or a deal. Its neither here nor there the symbolism of it as were colleagues previously commented is whats important and the likelihood of a shooting war breaking out on the Korean Peninsula now is so low if you go to your local bookies and get odds on it substantially substantially long odds now well and thats why i said to rain im going to rain right now perceived win thats what i said perceived win and i think were on the same page patrick are you want to jump in thats the point of the program go ahead. Yeah i think youre exactly right and i have Great Respect for my friend patrick i but i think hes being a little too prematurely saying go and say to say so to speak. Perceived when depends on the media yeah yeah media is all caps in the mickey mat ok now the election is a year and a half away theres all manner of opportunity for the media helped by people like bolton and pompei o to discredit the president to say he was naive and to preclude any success in korea as they have successfully done with respect to any success in making a more decent relationship with russia theres nothing no reason why it cant be done except the media has educated the American People to believe it cant be done because putin and kim are well as pump aoe says demons apparently pump air believes in demons yeah i dont. Hebrew really believes in the apocalypse there is a really scary guy from it stay with the theme of i learned something were going to go ahead ray go ahead ray go ahead. Yeah i just wanted to add that i learned something hopeful and that is that ive told pump a oh theres a weight limit on the rapture. Sorry. Sorry about that go to africa for ever and lets stay with the media with respect i think. From jump in my colleague. With all due respect i think my colleague paul of the media we shouldnt forget that president tump was elected despite the media and it doesnt metaphor if the media agrees with him as long as they put his picture. You know as the New York Times again it doesnt matter if the New York Times is. Giving game you know complimentary views what is important is that the name of tom puppy is on the 1st page and this is what up once he is well he is only a media is not a lazy says if i didnt know it like i would disagree let me go to patrick right now its because media determines how people think about an issue here and there at fault for for looking for the next hitler in the world or demonisation and regimes that are its the media that does that of course they get talking points from the deep state but the media gleefully does this thing and i to get the National Interest and ive gone through all 3 of you know i still havent asked the question i really want about the media patrick i mean when the media does undermine trump the perception in the world is that he is not in control of his own government hes not in control of the people around him and the perception is that you cant make a deal with trump because hell flip on a dime you dont know what youre going to get and and i have to admit you know going to going into the d. M. Z. Again really unpredictable so hes unpredictable that can cut both ways patrick. Yeah and indeed the difference is going to be look how the media treated him during the last election cycle theyre against him the whole time look at the result arguably youre not going to have a stronger candidate than Hillary Clinton this time around on the democratic side and this is a small margin of victory that trump would have to go for but still if the media is against him he that will wind his base up to support him it will it will energize the base whatever trump does its going to energize the base especially if the media is against him the counterargument from the democrats is going to be how could you coddle a brutal dictator whos guilty of all these Human Rights Violations and that argument is going to fail miserably because human rights and denuclearization are Nuclear Nonproliferation are 2 separate issues that never be placed in the same basket so trumps going to win on scale on mass on that argument so i think if the timing of rolling out something in august or september or right after the you know before the election after the convention thats going to be huge advantage on his part but c. N. N. You know they introduced north korea as the hermit kingdom thats what jake tapper has loaded on the teleprompter basically they totally underestimated yeah the d. P. R. K. They talk about them like theyre backward medieval and theyre not theyre very canny they understand american propaganda very well as do the iranians and i think thats a huge underestimation on the part of the u. S. Media to keep sort of downplaying kim and downplaying the north korea as a sort of clueless backward. Country thats not knowledgeable about how politics runs in the west they absolutely do yeah let me go back to i mean you can throw in the tapeworms in media too i mean all these people are low octane thinkers of really low octane thinkers you know they pay them a lot of money to smile and read glass ok but theyre not thinkers go ahead. Throw in Robert Muller mohler and the media now patrick just mentioned something very significant and that is how well the democrats did in the Congressional Elections well what was what was most are doing that he knew damn well by then that there was no collusion why do you say it why did it wait till several months after the election so the democrats could do really well why do you wait until later to say well you know actually i cant find any evidence of collusion so its not only the media its the whole deep state which as you know i call the mickey mouse ok afirm im going to give you the last word here are how optimistic you are and trump will get something before the election. Well i think if there is a president that knows the deep state it is stump donte so im put dicta but he doesnt listen to advice of he doesnt read Intelligence Briefings every morning and he does his own show so you know they taught us of the deep state. But it has less influence on this president and the other places than the fall ok well we have seen the deep state tripper try to trip this president up repeatedly lets may lets hope that on this one issue he can get a victory because it will be a victory for everyone and is one pointed out by patrick could be a litmus test for other challenges in the world thats all that all the time we have gentlemen many thanks my guests in raleigh jerusalem and employment and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arky see you next time and remember crosstalk. Dish you will not obey the voice of the lord your god be careful to do all these commandments and the statutes which i command you this day in all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. And then the white people this stolen property and therefore it must be returned to black people if they get rid of whites only problems will go away. The sort of creed to think what the president of the fleet. Wide from residents of africa every single day. People being tortured to death expression the elderly people in the. Mania somebody of my funky enough body. Like the bass white horse will find themselves affected by a crowd. When people give back means oh oh. All sweats and a lot of. What are you going to have for dinner today we dont need anything im asking for a name im a bad those feelings to the civil war in south africa easy never to get. One good profit from one why are there any chong not be in the tone of your hand to begin. With. You know world of big partisan movies a lot for years and conspiracy its time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that Mainstream Media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the fast and shouting past each other its time for Critical Thinking its time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks do. What politicians do listen to them. They put themselves on the line they get accepted over