Rocked the georgian capital tbilisi. They can download b r t out feel mobile device to stay up to speed on the latest news updates no matter where you are coming up next to it sophie encourage. Them to go on so if you shevardnadze it is said the number of white supremacist hate groups is on the right but my guest today is convinced that their message of hate can be decided with. Darrell davis musician who convinced hundreds of klan members to give up their ropes he joins me today to share his story. Despite decades of victories for the Civil Rights Movement americas. It is still the fabric of society these new hard line and loud civil Rights Groups bringing racism to the spotlight again. With a parallel rise of White Supremacists and right wing is. Protest tactic backfiring or provoking an extremist response can racism in the u. S. Only be confronted with militancy. In the method of calm conversation and gradual away. Without provoking fun. Darrell davis musician and author of the book the same relationships welcome to the show its really great to have you with us so darryl you are quite famous for befriending k. K. K. Members and in many cases your friendship resulted in them living the klan you wrote a book about it so when you were starting to work on your book did you yourself have any preconceptions about clansmen on how many of those stages are eventually. Well yes i did have some of preconceptions about them because you know as a child we hear things like a tiger never change its stripes a leopard never changes the spots so why would i think that a klansman would change his robe and hood so i had no intentions or perceived ideas that these people were going to change all i want to know from them was how can you hate me you dont even know me just tell me that and ill be happy but through the course of conversation and dialogue we began to humanize one another and we will find if you spend 5 minutes with your worst enemy you will find something in common if you spend 2 minutes i mean 10 minutes youll find even more so if you nurture those commonalities you are forging it relationship if you know which are the relationship you are then forging a friendship and so that friendship the things that you had in contrast so such as skin color or whether you go to a church a temple a senate or a mosque begin to matter less and less so the end should be that ideology so over time just over 200 members have left i dont want to say that i converted them but i was the impetus for their conversion they converted themselves you know as a result of the dialogue that we would have yeah but but what came before. When you said i want to sic i want to say converted well thats how it looks like that you sort of converted them but those that you did convert so to speak are not real racists from what i understand because if they were for real they wouldnt be talking to you i mean. So where does this the collective bigotry come from. So is a later spelt with a good polite conversation 5 or 10 minutes you. See. You are a rational person so therefore youre looking for rationale yes these are real racist people indeed theres no question about it if they werent they would not be in the most racist organization known to this country the ku klux klan i so yes many of them are very hard core racists but the reason why some of them were taught now there are those who would not talk me out of fear of me out of thinking that they were that much superior than me and didnt have time for me or whatever but those who did talk to me yes indeed were racist but they did not feel that they had anything to lose you know they wanted to demonstrate their superiority over me we just why they talk to me but over time they began to find out that we have more in common than we had in superiority or inferiority so what were those people like tell me more about them were they hard core extremists all of them like to say or was it more like a religious or political assembly. All across the board a klansman or clans woman is not stamped out of a standard cookie cutter for example become for all different walks of life some joined the klan because theyre more politically motivated you know they want to run for office and institutionalize the racism others are hardcore streamlets they want to get in there and do night riding blood at night time bomb churches and you know hurt people and things like that so they come all across the board you have people who are white separatists and yes people who are White Supremacists so when you were 1st invited to return to a k. K. K. Rally going all alone i mean there must have been like staring a hornets nest or you scared at all. No i was not scared you know when the leader. Invites you then youre ok because everybody there is going to do exactly what their leader told them to do or not to do so you know even though there were those who resented my being there they knew that theyd better not do anything or the leader would have consequences for them so because i was invited by their leader they complied. So you said that when you heard roger calley the leader of the maryland k. K. K. Talk he said things you didnt agree with but there were also things you grade on what were they this is correct well for example we both agreed that we need better education in our schools for the children we need to eradicate drugs from the street the drug epidemic going on in the country so we sound things in common Everybody Needs education the white drugs do not discriminate they will take a white person out just as fast as they would take a black person out so what i did was i found that we had in common. And. You know what this guys thats the same way i do about a lot of these things and i would create you know the 1st steps. So tother my education you also sad that hate comes from ignorance and we hate things we dont understand but if you look at david duke the prominent white supremacist politician i mean hes got a bachelors in history and i heard that theyre educated people a masters a great all in the klan as well as their as special kind of ignorance and plays and one thats not addressed by a formal education so to say. Sure there are people who are extremely racist and have. Been have the highest office in the land so to speak wont name anybody but david duke. Is a College Educated man we have had we have had. 2 president s at least who were in the klan president harry truman had joined the klan for a very short time. Before he became president he didnt like it he got out president warren g. Harding was sworn into the ku klux klan in the green room of the White House Supreme Court justice hugo black had been a klansman he had to leave the ku klux klan in order to sit on the Supreme Court senator robert byrd who was our oldest living senator here in the United States who passed away just a few years ago he had been a klansman back in the 1940 s. So they come from all walks of life from the 3rd grade dropout to post College Degrees but you know its how you were raised that that lasts with you your entire life so they have this ideology for a long time regardless of how much or how little education they may have had. You said that racists should be given a platform that their ideas need to be challenge in the opening for instance in the wake of their white supremacist attack in new zealand the official response was pretty much to go for censorship so do you think that even the ideas that leads to human deaths shouldnt be censored. I think what happened over there was it was a definitely a tragedy no question and and that guy needs to pay the consequences you know for what he has done but i do believe in giving people a platform we have the right to hate in this country but we dont have the right to hurt so if they want to talk all that stuff thats fun but when they crossed the line and began inflicting damage or hurt upon somebody thats where it stops thats where the platform ends and they are prosecuted but we need to know what people are thinking because a if we ignore them that doesnt do any good the ku klux klan was formed in 1865 where are we now 2019 while this still here because we have ignored them we need to listen to them find out whats going on what is wrong oh in their minds what is it that theyre fearing and then address those concerns thats what i do and thats how ive been successful in influencing people to convert themselves have you ever met white supremacist hardcore announced that you went like oh no its a smash and cannot be helped yes absolutely ive met some who will go to their graves being 5 and hateful and racist absolutely there is no changing some of these people. Well somebody. Thought. A possibility. Absorb some of your information. Carol were going to take a break right now when were back well continue our discussion of racism in america and the way to tackle it was Darrell Davis our and then musician who doesnt. Buy them stay with us. We had. In the water. Some. Of them to want to take a lot of our feet and hurt them and. I believe that this is one part of the therapy is. A charm that absurd really harsh things that happen in life. Or back gerald davis musician who had scores of k. K. K. Members surrender their ropes to him discussing the problem of racism in todays america youve been criticized by some in the black lives matter of movement as willing to sit down with the enemy and thus legitimised them give them a chance to say hey were not races were just spoke to a black guy so do you feel that you actually are giving this guys a good reputation by you know interacting with them in some way. You know because ive been at this long enough to know when someone is trying to take advantage of me for their own publicity or their own game i know that game very well so you know there are some who may try to do that but im well on top of that and the ones who criticized me you know you said the blast was about a movement it last last matter is not a centralized organization there are many many many different groups a blast was matter and they all autonomous i have some in detroit and new york who contact me and say you know do you do workshops you teach us how to do what you do and there are others who simply will be a part so there is no cohesiveness with then that movement unlike say b. M. W. C. P. Or the boy scouts of america we have one Central Organization and policy is created here and disseminated to all the chapters so everybody is on the same page. So white supremacist and far right groups have access to the america for ages but the crips emerging now adays claim that there are reaction to movements like black class matter to the new theory and somewhat radical civil busy rights activists is it a fair is it fair to attach some of the blame for the rise of extremism to bail them and its brazen confrontational ways no not at all and of course you know people always want to blame somebody else for their issues i can tell you whats going on here in this country. As you probably know. Whites are a minority globally but in the United States weis are indeed the majority and they have been so ever sense for 400 years but by 2040. It will be like this whites and nonwhites it will level out 50 percent white said to percent nonwhite by 2042 and then shortly thereafter its going to flip for the 1st time in the history of the United States whites will become a minority so white while while there are many many many white people who embrace that change they realize that you know things evolve and they welcome that change they is a percentage of white people who do not embrace that change and they are very disconcerted about it and theyre concerned that theyre losing power because they have sat on the throne of power for 400 years and now theyre thrown legs are being chopped off and theyre being lowered down to the level of what they call the inferior people the brown people ok so they dont want to give up that power and thats why were seeing more and more lone wolves going out and shooting up black churches should be upset at all these groups creating mayhem trying to start what they call wrong or the race war robbo i mean the racial holy war so as we get closer and closer to this shift change were going to see more and more of that unfortunately which is why it is impending upon us to address these issues now and not put them on the back burner we should have been addressing them in this country decades ago but we failed for you had the patience and the strength to sit down with con members what aaron brotherhood in talk sense into them but black lives matter are about different kind of races and Police Shootings driving while black black incarceration and they soak us on racism in the system not just in french radical groups do you think what you do you can how cops restrain themselves. When dealing with black people have you ever try to get a racist cop or chides or committee at justice being racist listen i just met last night with our chief of police where i live i meet with him the 3rd thursday of every month and so yes police can change too and they definitely need to hear these conversations no question about it. Forms of racism where the system it is situational. Or you know overt like the k. K. K. Or neo nazis you know having their little rallies in the park or whatever all of it needs to be addressed and there is no one way to solve the problem but we have to do is we all have a responsibility to make our country the best it can be but we have to Work Together in concert with chief this and we dont she bit by putting each other down and criticizing what somebody else is doing those people who want to work with with the systemic racism thats great thats fine and they need to ok i work with individuals now i can tell you this. The system does not run itself its the people behind the system the individuals that control the system thus systemic racism so if you change the minds of the individuals then you change the mind of the system it. So in the may 2018 paid a visit to the National Museum of African American history and culture was your friend Richard Preston the klansman who shot at a black man chairing the charleville rally do you see the man showed any empathy they make and dance and his perception of reality. Absolutely sure did i talk to mr preston every week ok he and i are very very good friends mr preston was able to see things you know he still has a ways to go you know dont get me wrong you still has a ways to go but at least now hes going in the right direction and again that is a result of sitting down and having dialogue. Right but in the Netflix Documentary about you he say the marilyn clench after pretty much fell apart after he got roger kelly to give his right to you however mr preston seems to have reestablished a chapter i mean this makes you literally got a 4 year ago had. Ok. When when roger kelley with the klan he did not pass it down to the next in command he disbanded it and it was it was gone there was no more complex plan in the state of maryland for almost 11 years. Now that is i mean that there were no more racist america there are plenty of races in the state of maryland where there was no organized racism no. But 11 years later Richard Preston decided he was going to create his own plan. It is a very very small clam so its not even considered a group its not even chartered its not even read just like a kelly was was but so you question here you might feel. A broder a character i mean on this small example this just makes me wonder teach you ever feel like no matter how many people youve a friend convert theyre always be someone else to take their place. Oh sure you know that yeah its reducing is reducing but yeah its not be like that for a while until people become more educated about racism and begin to have more and more of these conversations as long as we. Talking with people with whom we just agree yeah youre always going to have replacements but the more we can feel hey lets talk about this etc then we will see it vanish i dont think racism will be here forever now there are people who disagree with me it will be here for a while but know the more we address it as you open about it yes we are eradicating it thats my opinion so you testified on prestons trial and is a fan sent 2004 he also testified intercessor chester dole unit leader for ash alliance and class men with a history of violence and both men showed no signs of remorse about their deeds but you still call them friends using they were saying do you as a friend or as a convenient p. R. Tool. No not at all both men are indeed my friends and what happened was just a dose happens to a lot of people black people white people whatever when when prosecutors dont have enough to put you away with with the evidence that they have put you away for as long as they can what they do is they throw a lot of charges on you and hoping that one thats one or more will stick and youll get that. Just there was definitely guilty of some of those charges but there were others that were placed upon him of which he was not guilty and those are the ones to which i testified because even though i may not have agreed with his ideology i dont believe. In falsely listen charges against somebody or accusing them of something that they did not do. And which are president s case i can tell you right now. Richard does have a ways to go but had that had that man been a white man with the flame thrower pointing it at his klan group but your precious still would have fired the gun. So i know i know richard very well and i know chester very well but talking about friends how did your africanamerican friends react to you standing up for haters like that because there are no known haters in public did anyone ever accuse you of some kind of the trail or somethin. My friends know because my friends know who i am they know what i stand for and they know that i dont stand for racism what if im like that and i do not stand up for racism i just say we have the right to hate we dont have the right to hurt so while i mean i like what some of them are saying or what some of them are doing i will defend i will defend their rights because if you take away their rights it wont be long before mine or yours can be taken away now those people. People who dont know me yes i get a lot of pushback now understand something if i were to run across a picture. A little black person shaking hands with a man in a robe and a hood i would have a visceral reaction like what the heck is going on here but maybe i would read the back story to find out why is this happening oh ok i got it now very interesting there are some people who read the back story and there are others who will go no further than the picture they would jump to conclusions this person is a hes a race traitor hes a sellout hes a disgrace to our race without even knowing the back story and i have had some of those very same people who have accused me of that later come back to me and say we understand you know case in point you mentioned the Netflix Documentary you saw thats. A year and later those same people reach out to me and we had dinner together and now we better understand each other they dont agree with everything that i do but by any means but they understand the work that im doing and they appreciate it great we all need to Work Together to do the best that we each are qualified to do. Tara thank you so much for this wonderful entering and for everything here doing for mankind actually good luck with all your future and im sure you know these are Great Questions thank you thats all about my team they can be happy to hear much thank you so were talking to Darrell Davis is a great musician and author of clandestine relationships discussing their roots of racism and best ways to deal with it thats it for this edition of. The counting fraud at Deutsche Bank is only now just being revealed. 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